It doesn't have to add up. I can't raise an issue without having a hidden agenda? Whatever. I'm clearly not finding any success here. I have no reason to lie about my story or anything I said here. It isn't like any of you here know me in real life. You have no idea who is sitting behind the keyboard typing this. I don't receive any of your praise or hate, this anonymous account does. So why would I lie? I don't get it.
In this thread: Op gets a bad draw, possibly bad mulligan, loses good rare prize pack, convinced that everyone around him is cheating.
Grow up.
Why are we all focused on me? Focus on the discussion at hand. Honestly, I don't see the point in reasoning with any of you here. So much hostility and distrust.
So we should ban me because I admit to an act of which I wish to remove from the game? So be it. Once again, I have no stock in this account. A banning means nothing. If I broke the rules, go for it.
Many of you are missing the point. Watch the video I linked. That is a video of a man cheating at Star City Games Worcester, and getting away with it, then winning the tournament. Doesn't that worry any of you? He isn't the only one that cheats.
Cheating is real. It happens. The card sleights people are capable of doing under a watchful eye are very real, and not just backyard magic tricks. Whether any of you want to believe it or not, it happens, and I don't doubt for a second that any accomplished card shark could cheat right under your nose, and even after reading this thread and being more aware, he/she would still get away with it.
Does everyone else not realise the OP is blatant bull*****?
"I'm a master cheater and I'm here to warn you about cheating."
It's attention-seeking tripe, written by a teenager with an over-active imagination.
I am not a master cheater, nor do I claim to be. I'm not here to garner attention. I have a very small amount of posts here, as I primarily lurk. My reputation/attention I get means nothing to me. I simply want to bring attention to an issue in magic. The title is admittedly a very click-bait title.
As for cheating in casual matches, I don't do it to win. I did it to see how easy it would be, to see if this is a real issue, and it is.
Noob question. What's a table cut? A Google search just got me results about cutting gemstones lol.
A table cut is then you cut the deck on the table. You don't get to lift the deck up with your hands as it allows for a plethora of hidden movements and sleights.
The weird rule is that you are not allowed to cut the deck after it has been presented and shuffled by the opponent.
This would be a great addition to the current rules, and would solve many problems in one.
As many of you have expressed, a cut cannot combat mana-weaving, a possibility I clearly did not think of. That is why I posted this here to a forum full of people who play the game more than I do. This is meant to spur discussion on the issue. I don't know everything there is to know about Magic, and I don't claim to.
Also, I don't cheat in magic to win, I cheated to learn how easy it was, as well as to educate all of the players at my local store. Many of you may see it as a non-issue because you haven't experienced it and if you did, you likely wouldn't know. If I was cheating for profit, I would not have taken the time to anonymously post to arguably the largest MTG board on the internet.
Moving on.
This is a great example of a rather skilled card sleight that involved slipping the card to the top of the deck. Nothing fancy, just quick and fluid movements. This guy won the tournament and no one was the wiser. You may think I'm trying to sound like some cool teenage card superhero, but the reality is, there are loads of people out there like this guy, and they will cheat, and they will get away with it. This guy's only downfall was the cameras. Imagine what he does when there are none?
Remember something. That guy won. I can't even begin to explain how terrible that is.
Say what you will. Say I'm shooting for attention. Whatever. I simply want to bring to attention how easy it is to cheat. Believe it or not, not all people with the ability to cheat do it for profit. Myself falling in that category. I want to take my knowledge of card sleights, educate others on how easy they are to miss, and hopefully bring an awareness.
This discussion where you guys point out the issues of just cutting the deck are great. I'm more a poker player than I am a magic player. Issues like mana weaving never occurred to me. But like it was mentioned above, adding a cut to the end of your opponent shuffling would be a great way to allow for shuffling a mana weave as well as cutting away an opponent's stacking of the cards. That is why I'm posting here, so as a community we can work the issue out. If you have any other gripes with me or with what I said, fire away, but also try to stay on topic. This is something that matters to me.
I figure this belonged in general, as the rules section is generally used for asking about rules, whereas this is meant to be a discussion. If not, then by all means, move it.
I saw a couple threads related to this from a year ago using the search function, but they didn't address what I wanted to talk about. I also want to point out that is thread isn't meant to be me boasting about my skills. This is an anonymous forum as most things are on the internet, I care not what forum goers here think of me. I primarily lurk anyways. I simply want to address an issue with a game that I love very much.
Some background: I have been playing Magic since Scars of Mirrodin, so I'm not too new. I have played my fair share of FNMs as well as tournaments.
More importantly, I play poker quite regularly. Real poker, we play for real money, and real stakes. This isn't your kitchen table poker. My buddies and I are all very accomplished at poker, as well as card manipulation, forces, and controls. It's how we make money. We're all in our 20's, in college, and starving for money. We all met through a mutual interest in poker, found out we're all good at sleights, and decided to start working poker tables in teams.
I won't get into specifics, lest I stray away from the topic at hand, but you walk into a club/house/bar separately and "unknowing" of each other, sit at the same table, shuffle the deck to you liking, and when you pass it to the "stranger" to your left, they cut the deck just where you told them to. Sure, it isn't a consistent or even sustainable form of income, but when you score, you make good money.
This brings me to the issue at hand. When I started playing magic in the days of Scars of Mirrodin, this never occurred as an issue to me. However, when I turned 17, and started getting seriously into poker and card sleights, I started to realize a problem in magic.
The problem is simple, shuffling your opponent's deck. This baffles me. When I shuffle my deck, and hand it to my opponent, he/she should do nothing but table cut it. No picking it up, no shuffling it, no nothing. Just a table cut. Simple. Easy. Safe.
In poker, one shuffles, the next guy cuts. A simple cut can kill any stacking someone does to the cards. (Unless the guy is cutting the deck where you marked the deck to be cut.) You don't cut twice, you don't shuffle, you don't do anything. You table cut, and you're done. If you did anything other than cut, you'd get thrown out on the spot, and in some cases, you'd find yourself in a violent situation.
When you get to the high levels of poker, the players don't even get to touch the deck, let alone shuffle or cut. They leave that to a dedicated neutral party in the form of a dealer.
The reason for this is simple. What I, my friends, and a frighteningly large amount of people around the world can do with a deck of cards is stunning. False cuts, false shuffles, classic passes, pinky breaks, double lifts, side steals, forces, top changes, controls, I can go on all day. Granted, not all the sleights I named are practical or usable in Magic or poker, they always have their applications.
Poker has it right. When I shuffle the deck, someone HAS to cut it, because what I can do with a shuffle can change the entire course of a game.
In magic, after I shuffle, I have to hand my deck over to the opponent to be shuffled. For me, that isn't an issue, I know what to look for. (Unless of course the guy/gal can't shuffle and is butchering my cards.) The real issue is when my opponent shuffles their deck and then hands it to a guy like me. That is where the fun starts.
You can tell almost immediately who will catch you, and who won't. You look up at your opponent and get a gauge of how interested they are in your shuffle. More often than not, taking their eyes off of their deck is easy. The art of misdirection is not a complicated art, everything from simply talking to them, to looking away, to bumping your elbow. All I need is for them to look away for a half second, and the movement is already done. That is, of course, assuming that they are watching me throughout my entire shuffle of their deck. And if you're real good, you can fool a guy who knows what to look for. One of my buddies regularly slips us. He is so fast it is unbelievable, and we know exactly what sleights and movements to look for!
Have I cheated in Magic games successfully before? Of course. All the time. It is too easy. In sanctioned tournaments? Of course not. I don't like to crap where I eat, for lack of a better term. I love magic, and don't want to risk getting alienated lest I get caught.
In my quest to make this issue more known, I challenged one of the judges at my local shop to catch me during a match. I told him exactly what I'd be doing, but not when I would do it. My opponent, unaware of the challenge, stared into my eyes as I talked to him while shuffling his deck. He was easy. The judge however, was fixed intently on my hands. So what does a fella do? I adjusted myself in my seat, simply straightening my posture and shifting my butt. Under the cover of these body movements, I perform a minute turn of the wrist, covering the movement, and bang, done. I hand the deck back to the opponent and announce the next couple of cards he will be drawing. Two sets of eyes on me, and I still get away with it.
I know what you're thinking. "That would never work in a real tournament." You're right and wrong. In the early rounds, it is ridiculously simple. There are no recorded matches, there are people everywhere, and the din of talking people and jostling arms makes for a perfect environment. As for the recorded matches, we have all likely seen the videos of some people getting caught in legacy/modern/standard tournaments and the like. But you know what? They only got caught because the cameras. NOT because someone saw them do it right there, and these players are under watchful eyes! These cheaters are almost always busted after the fact because no one with their naked eye could catch the movements.
This should present an issue. If these accomplished cheaters are only getting caught because of the cameras, what do you think they are doing in earlier rounds, or at their local stores?
My friends and I regularly use our local store as a training ground for practicing sleights as well as educating our fellow magic players on what to look for. Even when we educate others, we still get away with it. The moment you hand your deck to me, you are at my mercy. I will ruthlessly stack your deck to my liking, then false shuffle it, handing you back terrible draws, or sifting your best cards to the bottom. And you can't do a thing about it. I get to touch your deck last. Sure, you can call a judge over, but you won't do that if you don't notice my movements.
So. How do we resolve this issue? Simple. Just table cut the deck. That is it. I'm not going to call a judge over every time I need my deck shuffled. That is tedious, annoying, and time consuming. Just make it so that my opponent can only table cut my deck.
If someone can justify an opponent shuffling my deck, please do so. I see no upside to such a thing. If I try to stack my deck, then hand it to my opponent for a cut, he will cut the deck where ever he wants, undoing any work I did to stack. If he can shuffle it however, then I take whatever he gives me. If he stacks it, that is what I get.
This logic is terrible. Think about it.
After I shuffle, I must present my deck to my opponent so that he may ensure that I did not put any cards in a favorable position during the shuffle. How does he ensure this? Through a shuffle, in which he can do the exact thing this rule is trying to prevent, cheating. However, if he just cuts, it takes away my ability to cheat, as well as his ability to cheat.
The rule tries to prevent cheating through shuffling by having some shuffle. Justify that.
So is it likely we will ever see a change to this? Does anyone agree with the issues I present? Discuss.
My group is going to start playing star commander, and I'm taking the blue slot for awhile. I never play blue, I can't stand it. Being that it is the most powerful color in magic, I try to avoid it. But I figure I should leave my comfort zone and give it a go.
With that said, I've narrowed my choices down to two commanders. Sun Quan, Lord of Wu aggro supported by blue control and bounce or Thada Adel, Acquisitor tribal steals.
Are these good choices? Am I missing any fun blue commanders? (Not Taniwha he is very linear in his play style.)
I know aggro is not a viable strategy in commander, but would a control package, as well as cards like Cyclonic Rift make it more viable?
Also, how does a steal stuff deck play out? With Thada Adel, Acquisitor stealing mana rocks and such, I would plan to run every version of cards like Control Magic/Annex/Bribery and so on. Is this a deck that could work? Or would the deck fail due to being too reactive instead of proactive? (Except in the case of Bribery/Acquire/Telemin Performance)
I am foreign to blue. The only blue I play is my competitive Maelstrom Wanderer deck, and the only blue in that deck is extra turn cards, bribery cards, and cards like Rite of Replication.
Thanks for any advice. I've been playing since Scars of Mirrodin, it's about time I finally commit to trying blue.
Using proxies is like using fake chess pieces: I don't care whether anyone does it or not. What I do care about is having the opportunity to play Legacy or not. Well, as long as game play decisions aren't affected by the card being a proxy.
Corporate Governance (WB, Enchant World): Whenever a player casts a spell, send $1 to WOTC. If Corporate Governance is not a genuine WOTC card, sacrifice it.
This.
Bad proxies are frustrating. But if they look good, then why not?
Everyone does not have $1000+ to play some legacy decks, and should not be expected to.
Obviously in a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, proxies should be limited, or completely restricted.
What infuriates me is when someone wants to play legacy, then gets angry/complains/refuses to play because my (insert expensive cards) are a printed on a piece of paper pressed to a land. They are perfectly readable and look good, but because they aren't real, I get flak, and sometimes people who refuse to play.
That is a slap in the face. I work a full time job, go to college full time, and you're going to complain because I won't shell out a grand on some cardboard? I can't be bothered to blow that kind of money when I have bills, tuition, and a slew of other expenses.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match need to step down from their elitist throne of greatness and understand that not everyone has money to blow on a game. I just want to play and have fun. How can Wizards expect a format like Legacy to grow if a handful of the cards are on the reserve list?
As a time goes on, and more people start playing magic, the supply of duals and such will dwindle, and prices will go up. This pushes people away from the format as well as encourages counterfeiting. I want my chance of winning to based on my skill, not my wallet.
Why are we all focused on me? Focus on the discussion at hand. Honestly, I don't see the point in reasoning with any of you here. So much hostility and distrust.
Many of you are missing the point. Watch the video I linked. That is a video of a man cheating at Star City Games Worcester, and getting away with it, then winning the tournament. Doesn't that worry any of you? He isn't the only one that cheats.
Cheating is real. It happens. The card sleights people are capable of doing under a watchful eye are very real, and not just backyard magic tricks. Whether any of you want to believe it or not, it happens, and I don't doubt for a second that any accomplished card shark could cheat right under your nose, and even after reading this thread and being more aware, he/she would still get away with it.
I am not a master cheater, nor do I claim to be. I'm not here to garner attention. I have a very small amount of posts here, as I primarily lurk. My reputation/attention I get means nothing to me. I simply want to bring attention to an issue in magic. The title is admittedly a very click-bait title.
As for cheating in casual matches, I don't do it to win. I did it to see how easy it would be, to see if this is a real issue, and it is.
A table cut is then you cut the deck on the table. You don't get to lift the deck up with your hands as it allows for a plethora of hidden movements and sleights.
This would be a great addition to the current rules, and would solve many problems in one.
As many of you have expressed, a cut cannot combat mana-weaving, a possibility I clearly did not think of. That is why I posted this here to a forum full of people who play the game more than I do. This is meant to spur discussion on the issue. I don't know everything there is to know about Magic, and I don't claim to.
Also, I don't cheat in magic to win, I cheated to learn how easy it was, as well as to educate all of the players at my local store. Many of you may see it as a non-issue because you haven't experienced it and if you did, you likely wouldn't know. If I was cheating for profit, I would not have taken the time to anonymously post to arguably the largest MTG board on the internet.
Moving on.
This is a great example of a rather skilled card sleight that involved slipping the card to the top of the deck. Nothing fancy, just quick and fluid movements. This guy won the tournament and no one was the wiser. You may think I'm trying to sound like some cool teenage card superhero, but the reality is, there are loads of people out there like this guy, and they will cheat, and they will get away with it. This guy's only downfall was the cameras. Imagine what he does when there are none?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0zYMAhp570
Remember something. That guy won. I can't even begin to explain how terrible that is.
Say what you will. Say I'm shooting for attention. Whatever. I simply want to bring to attention how easy it is to cheat. Believe it or not, not all people with the ability to cheat do it for profit. Myself falling in that category. I want to take my knowledge of card sleights, educate others on how easy they are to miss, and hopefully bring an awareness.
This discussion where you guys point out the issues of just cutting the deck are great. I'm more a poker player than I am a magic player. Issues like mana weaving never occurred to me. But like it was mentioned above, adding a cut to the end of your opponent shuffling would be a great way to allow for shuffling a mana weave as well as cutting away an opponent's stacking of the cards. That is why I'm posting here, so as a community we can work the issue out. If you have any other gripes with me or with what I said, fire away, but also try to stay on topic. This is something that matters to me.
I figure this belonged in general, as the rules section is generally used for asking about rules, whereas this is meant to be a discussion. If not, then by all means, move it.
I saw a couple threads related to this from a year ago using the search function, but they didn't address what I wanted to talk about. I also want to point out that is thread isn't meant to be me boasting about my skills. This is an anonymous forum as most things are on the internet, I care not what forum goers here think of me. I primarily lurk anyways. I simply want to address an issue with a game that I love very much.
Some background: I have been playing Magic since Scars of Mirrodin, so I'm not too new. I have played my fair share of FNMs as well as tournaments.
More importantly, I play poker quite regularly. Real poker, we play for real money, and real stakes. This isn't your kitchen table poker. My buddies and I are all very accomplished at poker, as well as card manipulation, forces, and controls. It's how we make money. We're all in our 20's, in college, and starving for money. We all met through a mutual interest in poker, found out we're all good at sleights, and decided to start working poker tables in teams.
I won't get into specifics, lest I stray away from the topic at hand, but you walk into a club/house/bar separately and "unknowing" of each other, sit at the same table, shuffle the deck to you liking, and when you pass it to the "stranger" to your left, they cut the deck just where you told them to. Sure, it isn't a consistent or even sustainable form of income, but when you score, you make good money.
This brings me to the issue at hand. When I started playing magic in the days of Scars of Mirrodin, this never occurred as an issue to me. However, when I turned 17, and started getting seriously into poker and card sleights, I started to realize a problem in magic.
The problem is simple, shuffling your opponent's deck. This baffles me. When I shuffle my deck, and hand it to my opponent, he/she should do nothing but table cut it. No picking it up, no shuffling it, no nothing. Just a table cut. Simple. Easy. Safe.
In poker, one shuffles, the next guy cuts. A simple cut can kill any stacking someone does to the cards. (Unless the guy is cutting the deck where you marked the deck to be cut.) You don't cut twice, you don't shuffle, you don't do anything. You table cut, and you're done. If you did anything other than cut, you'd get thrown out on the spot, and in some cases, you'd find yourself in a violent situation.
When you get to the high levels of poker, the players don't even get to touch the deck, let alone shuffle or cut. They leave that to a dedicated neutral party in the form of a dealer.
The reason for this is simple. What I, my friends, and a frighteningly large amount of people around the world can do with a deck of cards is stunning. False cuts, false shuffles, classic passes, pinky breaks, double lifts, side steals, forces, top changes, controls, I can go on all day. Granted, not all the sleights I named are practical or usable in Magic or poker, they always have their applications.
Poker has it right. When I shuffle the deck, someone HAS to cut it, because what I can do with a shuffle can change the entire course of a game.
In magic, after I shuffle, I have to hand my deck over to the opponent to be shuffled. For me, that isn't an issue, I know what to look for. (Unless of course the guy/gal can't shuffle and is butchering my cards.) The real issue is when my opponent shuffles their deck and then hands it to a guy like me. That is where the fun starts.
You can tell almost immediately who will catch you, and who won't. You look up at your opponent and get a gauge of how interested they are in your shuffle. More often than not, taking their eyes off of their deck is easy. The art of misdirection is not a complicated art, everything from simply talking to them, to looking away, to bumping your elbow. All I need is for them to look away for a half second, and the movement is already done. That is, of course, assuming that they are watching me throughout my entire shuffle of their deck. And if you're real good, you can fool a guy who knows what to look for. One of my buddies regularly slips us. He is so fast it is unbelievable, and we know exactly what sleights and movements to look for!
Have I cheated in Magic games successfully before? Of course. All the time. It is too easy. In sanctioned tournaments? Of course not. I don't like to crap where I eat, for lack of a better term. I love magic, and don't want to risk getting alienated lest I get caught.
In my quest to make this issue more known, I challenged one of the judges at my local shop to catch me during a match. I told him exactly what I'd be doing, but not when I would do it. My opponent, unaware of the challenge, stared into my eyes as I talked to him while shuffling his deck. He was easy. The judge however, was fixed intently on my hands. So what does a fella do? I adjusted myself in my seat, simply straightening my posture and shifting my butt. Under the cover of these body movements, I perform a minute turn of the wrist, covering the movement, and bang, done. I hand the deck back to the opponent and announce the next couple of cards he will be drawing. Two sets of eyes on me, and I still get away with it.
I know what you're thinking. "That would never work in a real tournament." You're right and wrong. In the early rounds, it is ridiculously simple. There are no recorded matches, there are people everywhere, and the din of talking people and jostling arms makes for a perfect environment. As for the recorded matches, we have all likely seen the videos of some people getting caught in legacy/modern/standard tournaments and the like. But you know what? They only got caught because the cameras. NOT because someone saw them do it right there, and these players are under watchful eyes! These cheaters are almost always busted after the fact because no one with their naked eye could catch the movements.
This should present an issue. If these accomplished cheaters are only getting caught because of the cameras, what do you think they are doing in earlier rounds, or at their local stores?
My friends and I regularly use our local store as a training ground for practicing sleights as well as educating our fellow magic players on what to look for. Even when we educate others, we still get away with it. The moment you hand your deck to me, you are at my mercy. I will ruthlessly stack your deck to my liking, then false shuffle it, handing you back terrible draws, or sifting your best cards to the bottom. And you can't do a thing about it. I get to touch your deck last. Sure, you can call a judge over, but you won't do that if you don't notice my movements.
So. How do we resolve this issue? Simple. Just table cut the deck. That is it. I'm not going to call a judge over every time I need my deck shuffled. That is tedious, annoying, and time consuming. Just make it so that my opponent can only table cut my deck.
If someone can justify an opponent shuffling my deck, please do so. I see no upside to such a thing. If I try to stack my deck, then hand it to my opponent for a cut, he will cut the deck where ever he wants, undoing any work I did to stack. If he can shuffle it however, then I take whatever he gives me. If he stacks it, that is what I get.
This logic is terrible. Think about it.
After I shuffle, I must present my deck to my opponent so that he may ensure that I did not put any cards in a favorable position during the shuffle. How does he ensure this? Through a shuffle, in which he can do the exact thing this rule is trying to prevent, cheating. However, if he just cuts, it takes away my ability to cheat, as well as his ability to cheat.
The rule tries to prevent cheating through shuffling by having some shuffle. Justify that.
So is it likely we will ever see a change to this? Does anyone agree with the issues I present? Discuss.
My group is going to start playing star commander, and I'm taking the blue slot for awhile. I never play blue, I can't stand it. Being that it is the most powerful color in magic, I try to avoid it. But I figure I should leave my comfort zone and give it a go.
When I pick a commander for a deck, I try to avoid the obvious/powerful choices. No Azami, Lady of Scrolls or Arcum Dagsson for me. I like my commanders to be a little different, as well as adhere to good flavor. For example, my mono green deck is Multani, Maro-Sorcerer, and my junk deck is Doran, the Siege Tower tribal trees. All of my commanders are like this, you won't see me playing Gaddock Teeg, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, or Prime Speaker Zegana.
With that said, I've narrowed my choices down to two commanders. Sun Quan, Lord of Wu aggro supported by blue control and bounce or Thada Adel, Acquisitor tribal steals.
Are these good choices? Am I missing any fun blue commanders? (Not Taniwha he is very linear in his play style.)
I know aggro is not a viable strategy in commander, but would a control package, as well as cards like Cyclonic Rift make it more viable?
Also, how does a steal stuff deck play out? With Thada Adel, Acquisitor stealing mana rocks and such, I would plan to run every version of cards like Control Magic/Annex/Bribery and so on. Is this a deck that could work? Or would the deck fail due to being too reactive instead of proactive? (Except in the case of Bribery/Acquire/Telemin Performance)
I am foreign to blue. The only blue I play is my competitive Maelstrom Wanderer deck, and the only blue in that deck is extra turn cards, bribery cards, and cards like Rite of Replication.
Thanks for any advice. I've been playing since Scars of Mirrodin, it's about time I finally commit to trying blue.
This.
Bad proxies are frustrating. But if they look good, then why not?
Everyone does not have $1000+ to play some legacy decks, and should not be expected to.
Obviously in a tournament where cash prizes are on the line, proxies should be limited, or completely restricted.
What infuriates me is when someone wants to play legacy, then gets angry/complains/refuses to play because my (insert expensive cards) are a printed on a piece of paper pressed to a land. They are perfectly readable and look good, but because they aren't real, I get flak, and sometimes people who refuse to play.
That is a slap in the face. I work a full time job, go to college full time, and you're going to complain because I won't shell out a grand on some cardboard? I can't be bothered to blow that kind of money when I have bills, tuition, and a slew of other expenses.
People who refuse proxies in a friendly/casual match need to step down from their elitist throne of greatness and understand that not everyone has money to blow on a game. I just want to play and have fun. How can Wizards expect a format like Legacy to grow if a handful of the cards are on the reserve list?
As a time goes on, and more people start playing magic, the supply of duals and such will dwindle, and prices will go up. This pushes people away from the format as well as encourages counterfeiting. I want my chance of winning to based on my skill, not my wallet.