So, I played a 4 round Tournament today and it was really frustrating. It was my first outing with the deck so I can't say I played that bad, but...Esper has some really bad match ups.
2-2 Overall
Mirror:
2-0
I prepared a lot for this match up and (reading articles and posts here). Stole his Ugin with Silumgar and Ultimate it first game. Game 2 I bring in Ashkiok, cast him T3 and is snowballs for him from there.
Vs Abzan Midrange: 2-1
I answered his stuff 1 for 1 and tried to stay ahead via CA. It always feels like this deck is favored, but Ojutai paved the way and Silungar, the Drifting Death is fantastic in this match.
Vs Mardu Tokens 0-2 Loss
I got obliterated. Not enough answers and he ripped my hand apart via Thoughtseize, Duress and Mardu Charm. This match up feels really bad for the deck. The early discard, kills control, all the tapped lands didn't help , and when scorn if turned off you are pretty much dead in the water. He set-up his 3 drops well and rabblemaster's came down to put the pressure on (He'd taken my counters right out and DTT). Crackling Doom = Anti Dragon card.
Vs Abzan Control 1-2 Loss
This match up is not favorable. They have more draw then we do, and we can only counter so much, I felt like he always had CA from someplace. Eitehr Graveyard, (Tasigur), or his 8 Draw Spells (Charms, and Read the Bones ). Let's not mention his own Thoughtseize and walker suite it almost feels like there is not enough to answer them. I win game 2 off the back of DL Silumgar (Stole Elspeth and Ultimate her). Other than that, he T1 and T2 Thoughtseize and pretty much put me Behind from there. Is this where we bring in our own Tasigur? Just feels like I should be bringing this is but they have so much removal is feels like he's a target, and I'd rather draw more and sculpt my hand to answer their threats. They fire off so much draw, theis deck has beaten me a lot, I managed to win when I was running the PLA Vault version of U/B.
So maybe it's time to go back to the good ol, U/B control with PLA and Ashiok's as threats. That version played 8 counters and more draw, I never felt like I got rolled as hard as I did i my last 2 matches. I'm lucky I avoided the RDW matches, as those are almost unwinnable G1.
Hey guys/gals. SO Esper not as good anymore? I see a lot of posts saying they're going back to Straight up U/B control. If its the Den/Raptor package, can't we tune Esper to include more exile effects? Might make the deck worse against mono red, but hey, it's a weekly adaption now.
So I ran this at small Standard Tournament, and went 2-1 (4th) but the night before I had taken 2nd place with the SCG B/W Warrior list. I made some changes and added in Mogi's Marauder and that card is a bomb for the deck. It's so good, you build your team a little trade and once they try to stabilize you drop him and swing. He may not be a warrior, but intimidate is pretty good for 3-4 or 5 creatures getting in, the Haste ability it grants is pretty explosive in this kind of aggro deck. Loss was to Mardu again...it's a really bad match, and while it's not popuar right now, if Mardu gets more steam than it will be the decks weakest Match-Up. Anger of the Gods is way more troublesome than Drown in Sorrow for this deck.
well I ran that lsit tonight at a local win a box contest and got 2nd with it. Lost to Mardu Tokens 2x, and those were my only losses. The deck hosed everything else and while I had some close matches, when it curves out like this:
that is a possible 18 damage by turn T4. I got sequences like this, and used Valorous Stance to protect one of the double striking critters and GG. T5 kills were possible and I pulled them off.
Match ups:
Vs G/R dragons, 2-1 win
Best card in that match up was Blood-Chin Rager, it just created really bad blocking early on. Those early points of damage really went far, I used Valorous Stance mainly as a pro spell in this match up and it saved key warriors every time. I did kill a few Thunderbreak Regent 's but I just went under the deck and created blocking Chaos via Rager.
Vs Mardu Tokens
AGAIN
Result 2-0 WIN
What can I say, except that win this deck curves out and goes first, is very hard to beat. I did everything right and Chief of the Scale saved a lot of warriors in the match. I just got in, and used Valorous stance to protect the Rager. I sucked in his tokens and just ran it over G1.
G2: I Mull to 5. Yes 5, and I still won. I'm completely mana screwed and he drops Urborg. It gives me B to work with (I had a W in play), and my 5 card hand is full of 1 drops. So I deploy the team out and curve out to Arashin Foremost. I weather the removal, and smash. He plays Anger of the Gods, and I knew that this card could be a problem so I held back some dudes in my hand (in the previous match I got blown out by Anger, 2x...IN a ROW). So he resets the board, I drop Toughness Cheif and top deck another Arashin. GG.
Note: I was Thougtseize 'ed 2x in the 2nd G and Won off the 5 card Mull. Call it skill or blind luck, but I didn't misplay 1x.
Vs Atarka Sligh
2-0 Win
I thought this was going to be very hard and it was. It was a race, but I weathered the removal, (I lost like 6 creatures both games. more I think) but I stablize via Chief of the Scale and Blood-Chin Fanatic. I cast Sorin, and go in for 7 pts lifelink and manage to get myself out of burn range. Sorin bites the dust that turn but I drop Brutal Hordecheif and Mardu Shawdowspear to chump block. He's at 5, and has a ton of Goblins on the board, and Rabblemaster! I sack my chief and Hordechief via fanatic and get that extra reach! That was my G2, in G1 I out raced him.
Semi's (was 4th going in)
Vs Bant Megamorph
2-0 Win
This was the top deck of the night and the guy was 3-0-1 (Tie) going in ( he took a tie to secure the #1 spot). I'm nervous, but I'm actually thinking that this might be very good for my warrior deck. Turns out... it was. I got a very good hand, and despite being on the draw my I curve out exactly how I mentioned earlier. Except I got a Rager in play and killed him by T5. He couldn't block effectively. Game 2, I SB 3 Self-Inflicted Wound and force him to sack his blockers really early. I rip more chief and Arashin, it's over in like 3 minutes. This entire match took 6-8 minutes? Yeah it was brutal. We played a few games after to test more and went 1-1, so 3-1 in favor of warriors.
Final
1-2 Loss vs Mardu Tokens
Same dude I played before, he knew it was a tough match up for me, but I made a game of it, G3 though I got blown out be removal and Tokens. Stoke , mardu charm hosed my guys.
Overall, it feels really well positioned actually. I think it it needs to be ready for the token match up. Talking to the guys after, we agreed that the deck has a few opening hand sequences that can be almost unbeatable. What it's able to do early on is very aggressive. I think there's room for improvement, and I'm really not sure about Athreos in the SB. I never saw him and it didn't do anything. I'd much rather have more answers, like token hate. THis deck steam rolled esper dragons in one of the SCG open matches, and that's what made me get the list together. The creator did say it was geared to go against control, so I'm not sure what else it needs but it is good. As for the 125th result I wonder if the guy didn't show up. Just seems weird. Any way we can see how his match ups went?
Note: 0 control decks in the top 4, the Hate is strong in my meta and they got burned out.
What's happening right now is that a bunch them drew and every round is going an extra 30 mins because of all the damn draws. It's really dragging the tournament. It's 5 pm right now and we're still in round six. Day one should not take until ten pm to finish....
While we're getting off topic in the thread, how did that Warrior deck perform?
Scorn is great, but there are moments when you find yourself Dragonless in hand and forcespike mode just isn't enough. I've found this to be case against Gruul deck wins, and normal RDW. Basically any aggro based approach can punish the deck if it doesn't find it's mass removal early enough. So Scorn is kept in check by the meta imo, doesn't need banning.
Just watched a Warrior Deck blow an Esper deck right out of the water. SCG open coverage, and the way around it is to just deploy threats and curve out. It's powerful but I don't think it merits banning. Aggro can get there against Esper control.
I played against a mono black humans deck this week (Testing) and it ran Obelisk of Urd in the MB. Maybe this card can find a home in the warrior arch type? It effectively makes Bile Blight and Drown in Sorrow worse when they can in from the SB. If the deck can get wide enough, it can come down really early and pose a huge problem. Has anyone tested with this?
I wasn't an active player during RtR, but I've heard control was strong. From a returning player perspective, U/B Control post DTK, it was rough. Winnable matches but rough, once the Dragon package came out, control was helped quite a bit. Scorn is a part of that but, Haven, Foul Tongue and Ojutai make that deck come together.
Scorn single handily made UB/x decks tier 1 in standard. The Dragons followed Suite, but T2 counter thing, or force spike it is very strong for Standard. Still it's not broken, if the original Counterspell comes back...oh I can only the impact it will have in Modern/ Standard. It won't comeback.
I've been doing a lot of testing, and I am running UB Dragons. While similar to Esper it runs 6 dragons and MD Icefall Regent. The Traditionl UB list is imo the most powerful, but it takes a lot of good play and decision making to be at it's best. I think the current UB/x Tier list is:
Traditional UB control (Sullivan List)
Esper Control (CFB list, This deck has a lot of good games all around imo, Dragonlord Ojutai makes this deck great, 5/4 that turns on a 3-4 clock? and triggers Anticipate if he hits? Yeah...so good)
U/B Dragon Control (Very Similar to Esper, but I think has a slightly better game vs Aggro. In the Mirror, it really comes down to how to handle and approach the match, but it's very hard, Esper has the upper hand).
I've piloted all three, and once you lock the game down with the Sullvian's List is it really does feel like you can't lose. The UB/x Dragons needs to leave mana up for Scorns/ Dissolve all the while proactively planning the match accordingly. There have been times I've watched new control players tap out incorrectly and make come poor decisions with the deck that leads the opponent to get back in the game. I've even gone as far as to ask more experienced MTG control players to tutor me. Saying that I'm the best control player out there is a far cry from the truth, and I think getting tips from seasoned players helps new comers and returning players get better with control style decks.
It's worth splashing W for Ojutai, but the other 2 variants are just good and have their own pros and cons.
Lastly, All 3 decks lose badly to RDW, G1 is really hard to win (is like 3 out of 10 I think?) the tuning of all 3 is a meta game call on our part. I set my UB Dragon control to have a better game VS aggro G1, from what I've seen Esper decks are adjusting as well. The 3rd Bile Blight in the main is necessary, and the 4th out of the SB is as well.
for those interested,Link to my deck list is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-01-15-Ebh-ub-control/
I tried the UB Dragon BUild last night, went 1-2-1. Was a night full of Control match ups and I lost to the 3rd Esper deck because -drum roll- I didn't draw a 4th or 5th land game 1 until turn 8? lol Variance (I hadn't had any issues until then), Game 2 (last match of the night/ also same match), I fire off draw spells and all the stuff, use duress on him run him out of cards, and...after 2 Digs,a DL Perogative I still couldn't draw a dragon card. 6 Dragons...drew a Ugin and that was it. Of course after the match I looked to see where they were. all were piled together at the bottom, and were my last what? 20 cards? YAY.
Still good matches last night, and I did Tie the other 2 Esper decks, went to rounds and by the 3rd control match my noodle was burnt.
I'll run Yasooka's version this weekend, I don't think it's agood idea to just swap decks (despite having the cards) right now. My mental game is set up to play this Dragon Control, not Esper. I've stated before I cans ee why Esper is really good, but don't you think that a deck that made #2 in the Pro Tour is viable as well?
Not sure what deed is, I have an excuse. I don't play modern Yet and came back to Mtg in October. Must be A card I didn't Play with. Esper doesn't need icefall but mine does .
Icefall turns on removal too, and while they pay the extra 2C to make a dude untap, I feel like the Icefalls are the the front line men in the Dragon Control deck. I usually drop Dragonlord Silumgar once they have something relevant I can use to close the game out. That play is always backed up by a scorn or counter of some kind. If I "have" to play him on an open field and tap out, it's because:
A) I'm in a bad position and somewhere along the game I screwed up and misread the board
B) I have Counter to back up the play and am looking to close the game out
C) Steal Planeswalker and get value. I did this to my Abzan opponent (Same game) and used Ugin's "All us Dust" on the board. (SWEET play)
If you time his entrance, he can literally just "steal" the game lol
If you guys were to "update" Yasooka's list what would you add or take out?
I'm thinking about Adding 2 Vaults and and an Ashiok into my SB. The Raptor, Den Protector combo is annoying to deal with. Also..I've seen a lot of players side in Mastery of the Unseen, although it's not nearly as effective as it was, since now our creature FLY and can still get through the manifests. Unlike PLA which was chumped blocked all day.
2-2 Overall
Mirror:
2-0
I prepared a lot for this match up and (reading articles and posts here). Stole his Ugin with Silumgar and Ultimate it first game. Game 2 I bring in Ashkiok, cast him T3 and is snowballs for him from there.
Vs Abzan Midrange: 2-1
I answered his stuff 1 for 1 and tried to stay ahead via CA. It always feels like this deck is favored, but Ojutai paved the way and Silungar, the Drifting Death is fantastic in this match.
Vs Mardu Tokens 0-2 Loss
I got obliterated. Not enough answers and he ripped my hand apart via Thoughtseize, Duress and Mardu Charm. This match up feels really bad for the deck. The early discard, kills control, all the tapped lands didn't help , and when scorn if turned off you are pretty much dead in the water. He set-up his 3 drops well and rabblemaster's came down to put the pressure on (He'd taken my counters right out and DTT). Crackling Doom = Anti Dragon card.
Vs Abzan Control 1-2 Loss
This match up is not favorable. They have more draw then we do, and we can only counter so much, I felt like he always had CA from someplace. Eitehr Graveyard, (Tasigur), or his 8 Draw Spells (Charms, and Read the Bones ). Let's not mention his own Thoughtseize and walker suite it almost feels like there is not enough to answer them. I win game 2 off the back of DL Silumgar (Stole Elspeth and Ultimate her). Other than that, he T1 and T2 Thoughtseize and pretty much put me Behind from there. Is this where we bring in our own Tasigur? Just feels like I should be bringing this is but they have so much removal is feels like he's a target, and I'd rather draw more and sculpt my hand to answer their threats. They fire off so much draw, theis deck has beaten me a lot, I managed to win when I was running the PLA Vault version of U/B.
So maybe it's time to go back to the good ol, U/B control with PLA and Ashiok's as threats. That version played 8 counters and more draw, I never felt like I got rolled as hard as I did i my last 2 matches. I'm lucky I avoided the RDW matches, as those are almost unwinnable G1.
2x Arashin Foremost
2x Blood-Chin Fanatic
4x Blood-Chin Rager
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
3x Brutal Hordechief
4x Chief of the Edge
4x Chief of the Scale
2x Mardu Shadowspear
2x Mardu Woe-Reaper
3x Mogis's Marauder
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Mana Confluence
5x Plains
7x Swamp
2x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Valorous Stance
Planeswalker
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Athreos, God of Passage
3x Bile Blight
2x Erase
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
3x Thoughtseize
1x Valorous Stance
1x Virulent Plague
Bloodsoaked Champion into
Chief of the Edge into
Arashin Foremost
that is a possible 18 damage by turn T4. I got sequences like this, and used Valorous Stance to protect one of the double striking critters and GG. T5 kills were possible and I pulled them off.
Match ups:
Vs G/R dragons, 2-1 win
Best card in that match up was Blood-Chin Rager, it just created really bad blocking early on. Those early points of damage really went far, I used Valorous Stance mainly as a pro spell in this match up and it saved key warriors every time. I did kill a few Thunderbreak Regent 's but I just went under the deck and created blocking Chaos via Rager.
Vs Mardu Tokens
0-2 Loss
This deck has a very hard match up against Tokens. SB, needs work to make it better: It needs Virulent Plague and an extra copy of Bile Blight out of the SB to have a better chance. All of the decks removal spells are great against it. Stoke the Flames, Raise the Alarm, Dragon Fodder, Hordeling Outburst, Mardu Charm, + top end Butcher was brutal. Crackling Doom was especially rough. We did race but it wasn't exactly close.
Vs Mardu Tokens
AGAIN
Result 2-0 WIN
What can I say, except that win this deck curves out and goes first, is very hard to beat. I did everything right and Chief of the Scale saved a lot of warriors in the match. I just got in, and used Valorous stance to protect the Rager. I sucked in his tokens and just ran it over G1.
G2: I Mull to 5. Yes 5, and I still won. I'm completely mana screwed and he drops Urborg. It gives me B to work with (I had a W in play), and my 5 card hand is full of 1 drops. So I deploy the team out and curve out to Arashin Foremost. I weather the removal, and smash. He plays Anger of the Gods, and I knew that this card could be a problem so I held back some dudes in my hand (in the previous match I got blown out by Anger, 2x...IN a ROW). So he resets the board, I drop Toughness Cheif and top deck another Arashin. GG.
Note: I was Thougtseize 'ed 2x in the 2nd G and Won off the 5 card Mull. Call it skill or blind luck, but I didn't misplay 1x.
Vs Atarka Sligh
2-0 Win
I thought this was going to be very hard and it was. It was a race, but I weathered the removal, (I lost like 6 creatures both games. more I think) but I stablize via Chief of the Scale and Blood-Chin Fanatic. I cast Sorin, and go in for 7 pts lifelink and manage to get myself out of burn range. Sorin bites the dust that turn but I drop Brutal Hordecheif and Mardu Shawdowspear to chump block. He's at 5, and has a ton of Goblins on the board, and Rabblemaster! I sack my chief and Hordechief via fanatic and get that extra reach! That was my G2, in G1 I out raced him.
Semi's (was 4th going in)
Vs Bant Megamorph
2-0 Win
This was the top deck of the night and the guy was 3-0-1 (Tie) going in ( he took a tie to secure the #1 spot). I'm nervous, but I'm actually thinking that this might be very good for my warrior deck. Turns out... it was. I got a very good hand, and despite being on the draw my I curve out exactly how I mentioned earlier. Except I got a Rager in play and killed him by T5. He couldn't block effectively. Game 2, I SB 3 Self-Inflicted Wound and force him to sack his blockers really early. I rip more chief and Arashin, it's over in like 3 minutes. This entire match took 6-8 minutes? Yeah it was brutal. We played a few games after to test more and went 1-1, so 3-1 in favor of warriors.
Final
1-2 Loss vs Mardu Tokens
Same dude I played before, he knew it was a tough match up for me, but I made a game of it, G3 though I got blown out be removal and Tokens. Stoke , mardu charm hosed my guys.
Overall, it feels really well positioned actually. I think it it needs to be ready for the token match up. Talking to the guys after, we agreed that the deck has a few opening hand sequences that can be almost unbeatable. What it's able to do early on is very aggressive. I think there's room for improvement, and I'm really not sure about Athreos in the SB. I never saw him and it didn't do anything. I'd much rather have more answers, like token hate. THis deck steam rolled esper dragons in one of the SCG open matches, and that's what made me get the list together. The creator did say it was geared to go against control, so I'm not sure what else it needs but it is good. As for the 125th result I wonder if the guy didn't show up. Just seems weird. Any way we can see how his match ups went?
Note: 0 control decks in the top 4, the Hate is strong in my meta and they got burned out.
:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84281
While we're getting off topic in the thread, how did that Warrior deck perform?
Scorn is great, but there are moments when you find yourself Dragonless in hand and forcespike mode just isn't enough. I've found this to be case against Gruul deck wins, and normal RDW. Basically any aggro based approach can punish the deck if it doesn't find it's mass removal early enough. So Scorn is kept in check by the meta imo, doesn't need banning.
Traditional UB control (Sullivan List)
Esper Control (CFB list, This deck has a lot of good games all around imo, Dragonlord Ojutai makes this deck great, 5/4 that turns on a 3-4 clock? and triggers Anticipate if he hits? Yeah...so good)
U/B Dragon Control (Very Similar to Esper, but I think has a slightly better game vs Aggro. In the Mirror, it really comes down to how to handle and approach the match, but it's very hard, Esper has the upper hand).
I've piloted all three, and once you lock the game down with the Sullvian's List is it really does feel like you can't lose. The UB/x Dragons needs to leave mana up for Scorns/ Dissolve all the while proactively planning the match accordingly. There have been times I've watched new control players tap out incorrectly and make come poor decisions with the deck that leads the opponent to get back in the game. I've even gone as far as to ask more experienced MTG control players to tutor me. Saying that I'm the best control player out there is a far cry from the truth, and I think getting tips from seasoned players helps new comers and returning players get better with control style decks.
It's worth splashing W for Ojutai, but the other 2 variants are just good and have their own pros and cons.
Lastly, All 3 decks lose badly to RDW, G1 is really hard to win (is like 3 out of 10 I think?) the tuning of all 3 is a meta game call on our part. I set my UB Dragon control to have a better game VS aggro G1, from what I've seen Esper decks are adjusting as well. The 3rd Bile Blight in the main is necessary, and the 4th out of the SB is as well.
for those interested,Link to my deck list is here:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-01-15-Ebh-ub-control/
Still good matches last night, and I did Tie the other 2 Esper decks, went to rounds and by the 3rd control match my noodle was burnt.
I'll run Yasooka's version this weekend, I don't think it's agood idea to just swap decks (despite having the cards) right now. My mental game is set up to play this Dragon Control, not Esper. I've stated before I cans ee why Esper is really good, but don't you think that a deck that made #2 in the Pro Tour is viable as well?
A) I'm in a bad position and somewhere along the game I screwed up and misread the board
B) I have Counter to back up the play and am looking to close the game out
C) Steal Planeswalker and get value. I did this to my Abzan opponent (Same game) and used Ugin's "All us Dust" on the board. (SWEET play)
If you time his entrance, he can literally just "steal" the game lol
If you guys were to "update" Yasooka's list what would you add or take out?
I'm thinking about Adding 2 Vaults and and an Ashiok into my SB. The Raptor, Den Protector combo is annoying to deal with. Also..I've seen a lot of players side in Mastery of the Unseen, although it's not nearly as effective as it was, since now our creature FLY and can still get through the manifests. Unlike PLA which was chumped blocked all day.