Legit ruling question, new to magic, and i guess this deck in general so havent worked out game mechanics and deck mechanics yet but tried googling it didnt find it.
Was playing agianst lantern control, so i play ad nauseam and he lets it resolve, so i start revealing cards and i reveal a card and the next card is conflagrate(lightnibg storm and lab man already in grave and no more win cons and his lantern lets us see top card of deck) can he activate Pyxis of Pandemonium and exile conflag? Even before its revealed under effects of ad nauseam? I got an explanation of it is possible since ad nauseam is retracing itself or something and he gets priority after each reveal? He did the same thing in another game but using codex to mill lightning storm during ad nauseam reveal? but i have a feeling this shouldnt be legal?
EDIT:apparently he says he had this done to him before as he is also an ad nauseam player, and the lantern control player he was playing was a judge. not to say he is lying, just wanted to clarify.
You are correct, what your opponent did was against the rules. No player (including yourself) receives priority during the resolution of a spell, and Ad Nauseam is no exception; though I can understand the ambiguity here. In the future, you can shortcut this by saying "draw my whole deck, go to -x life" and if your opponent tries to argue this, call a judge over.
Intersting list: Collective Brutality main, Creeping Tar Pits, B/W Fastlands, no Ghost Quarters, a Mystical Teachings, trimming a Cryptic and an ECharm, maximum Fatal Push (trimming a Path). Some stuff I like, some I don't. Nice to get the exposure tho.
Does MTGO Player Slippaz follow this thread? I have questions! =D
Esper also took down Utah States - link - another interesting list, definitely some things to consider here.
Hey guys, glad to see so many familiar faces still around
I'm going to be hopping back on Esper after a bit of a hiatus with Jund. Hopefully I can play this week and join back in on the discussion. I'm gonna start with a 1/1 split of Gideon/Secure as my wincons; something like this - got some spicy cards I want to try
Celestial purge shines once again and is in my opinion one of the best sb-cards we have atm. It takes care of Liliana and nahiri and is also usefull against some other matchups like bitterblossom, naya burn and so on. Its simply that good atm i could go on naming decks for 10 rows.
Couldn't agree more. With Jund, Burn, and Jeskai now being among the top decks, not having Purge in the 75 feels wrong.
Played Jeskai the past two nights and I can safely say I am not a fan of the deck. Ancestral Vision felt pretty meh (much worse than what people hyped it up to be), and Mana Leak was basically garbage. I definitely used Mana Leak as 1U - "tap 3 lands of your opponents choice" more than I did actually countering spells. The deck runs out of gas very quickly when you don't drop a T1/2 vision, and with so few cantrips, hitting land drops (even at 26 lands) was sometimes a problem. Overall the deck felt like a bad Jund deck meets a bad Burn deck. Can't wait to play Esper again
EDIT: If I were to play Jeskai again, it would be with 4x Remand, 4x Nahiri and 1x Emrakul
AV is objectively superior to Think Twice. One is 3 cards for 1 mana the other 2 cards for five. The only downside of AV is that it takes time to resolve which should not be a factor in a control mirror
AV also has the downside of not helping hit land drops like TT. I think it's incorrect to just chuck TT for AV, as they fill slightly different roles.
Everybody knows rg tron and Jund aren't control, I think he was just trying to prove some weird theoretical point bc he doesn't like the list. Which is fine, I readily admitted this wasn't the right place to put it, I just thought it was interesting bc I arrived there by tweaking the wafo list here and there over time over hundreds of matches and documenting what worked and what would have been better. I'm not trying to derail, I'm just saying think critically about the meta. Are are you really happy to see those remands against.... Well... ANY of the meta besides maybe grixis control or some weird non existent mirror? Maybe against AV decks , but even then you would have to acknowledge the overwhelming portion of the metagame is linear aggro of some sort, be it affinity, burn, or infect, or zoo, and gbx midrange
Which brings us to the problem. Most of us have been building control decks BACKWARDS. Starting with one "golden list" that historically, nobody has really done that well with in a CONSISTENT FASHION, and then trying to rationalize the data to fit what we already believe: wafo list is untouchable and is the god-list of all control decks. Whereas even wafo himself would say in order to build a successful control deck, you have to look at the metagame you're supposedly controlling. That's control 101, and everybody here knows that. I'm speaking to myself as much as I'm speaking to any of you.
We can't build control decks like combo decks i.e.: start with a list that we assume is "correct" and then just hope the meta is favorable for us at any given point in the season. We are the police. Historically we are the people who have always said "oh, you willfully played a deck that folds to a single day of judgment? Neat. ". "You're entire strategy is to resolve inferno Titan? Sweet. Have a mana leak"
But anyways, at least we've got our shadow of doubts, right? Lol
TLDR; Not liking the list or not being a fan of the style is one thing, but to say it isn't control would be some pretty heavy mental gymnastics
THIS ^^^
Let's imagine the wafo list never existed. How would we go about building a control deck (be that draw-go or tappout) that attacks the current metagame?
I've been running a similar list for a bit with quite a bit of success. I know FNM doesn't mean a lot, but I can't remember the last time I went below 3-1. Considering how many creature-based decks are at the top of the meta, I feel 4x Verdict 2x Elspeth is a great place to be.
Edit: Cutting snapcaster is interesting. I find myself boarding him out a fair bit, I might have to try that out just to see...
I appreciate the clarity. Essentially you are playing into their plan of TOP-Deck war with a couple of options that can compete. I can see that Eugene can play similarly to Gideon Jura but plays a sweeper instead of Fog/Execute. Has the 8 CMC ever been an issue?
Not in this deck. Typically we make steady land drops up to around turn 10 at least.
You could also try something else like sorin, grim nemesis, but I like that ugin can be cast under blood moon, seeing as how we have very little space for celestial purges in the board
That being said:
I really feel like we need to add some more meat to this deck. People who were running an elspeth main, how was that working out?I know the whole "training wheels" thing but at a certain point, I don't care about name calling and start to care about the W or L on the match slip. There's just SO many times when I feel like I'm getting the hell knocked out of me by a treetop village and can only draw remands and shadow of doubts or whatever. If we cut the White zenith and 2 shadow flex slots for an elspeth and 2 grave titans, or elspeth, grave titan, wurmcoil, or any combination of these, I feel like my personal match win percentage would increase 60 percent.
It's absurd to marginalize all of you who have been trying that, I'm personally sorry. I'm at the end of my rope with this whole "well elspeth is training wheels because blah blah blah playskill" Play skill is great, but not when you're shooting yourself in the foot. If that's your mentality, then play a bunch of island and some vapor snags and a singleton storm crow and impress the hell out of us, as for me, I want to stop dying to lone treetop villages or getting beat to literal death by a 2/2 Scooze for 90 turns in a row while drawing cantrips. This rant is coming from a genuine control lover, but just because we love a style of play doesn't mean we have to force it to the logical extreme, especially in a format such as this. I don't think anybody would argue wafo-tapa's deck from worlds' 2010 was "midrange" or "tap out" because he had a few grave titans and mindsculptors and inquisitions. Hell, maybe inquisitions are more reasonable in a shell that can follow up with grave titan?
Honestly, I've never really liked WSZ. I've been playing with a pair of Elspeths for a while and it's been working out great for me... I guess it's just more my style.
The way I see it, while you *can* grind Zenith's forever, why not just drop Elspeth and call it a day? Especially in a format where Burn, Infect, and Affinity are among the top decks, the last thing I want to be doing is waiting to draw my 1-of win-con. I think having a second wincon makes Esper Charms a bit better as well
G1: Mono-White Eldrazi Hatebears (2-0) -
Pretty cool deck. Running Thalia/Arbiter as the 2-drops, curving out into Displacer, TKS and Reality Smasher.
SB: -2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion -2x Snapcaster Mage +2x Condemn +2x Baneslayer Angel
I boarded out Elspeth because I was bringing in Baneslayer (better against Thalia and Reality Smasher), and the 2x Snapcaster Mage because I thought he might board into something like Relic of Progenitus.
___
G2: Burn (2-1) -
Honestly, I just got kinda lucky both games I won. G2 he drew 8 lands, and G3 he drew 6.
SB: -4x Supreme Verdict -2x Remand -2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion +2x Condemn +2x Celestial Purge +2x Baneslayer Angel +1x Dispel +1x Negate
I like Cryptic more than Verdict when I have 8 removal spells post-board. Blood Moon kinda sucks, but we don't always draw fetches/basics anyway.
___
G3: Jeskai Thopter Sword (0-2) -
G1 he goes T1 Vision T2 Vision. I couldn't find a Remand, and he eventually beats me down with Snap/Bolt/Helix. G2 was similar to the first. He brought in Staticaster to keep my Elspeths in check, and I just couldn't find the right action.
SB: -4x Supreme Verdict (would've liked 1) -2x Path to Exile (would've liked 3) +2x Thoughtseize +1x Dispel +1x Negate +2x Celestial Purge (hits Ajani, which I saw G1, Thopter Foundry and potential Keranos from the side).
___
G4: Affinity (2-1) -
You are correct, what your opponent did was against the rules. No player (including yourself) receives priority during the resolution of a spell, and Ad Nauseam is no exception; though I can understand the ambiguity here. In the future, you can shortcut this by saying "draw my whole deck, go to -x life" and if your opponent tries to argue this, call a judge over.
Here is a link to the match for anyone interested
Harsh Mentor says "artifact, creature, or land on the battlefield" so it actually doesn't apply to Lightning Storm
Esper also took down Utah States - link - another interesting list, definitely some things to consider here.
I'm going to be hopping back on Esper after a bit of a hiatus with Jund. Hopefully I can play this week and join back in on the discussion. I'm gonna start with a 1/1 split of Gideon/Secure as my wincons; something like this - got some spicy cards I want to try
4x Celestial Colonnade
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
[Creatures]
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Azorius Charm
3x Cryptic Command
4x Esper Charm
2x Logic Knot
4x Path to Exile
2x Remand
1x Secure the Wastes
3x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
[Sorcery]
4x Supreme Verdict
[Planeswalker]
1x Gideon Jura
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Celestial Purge
1x Condemn
1x Dispel
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2x Thoughtseize
1x Vendilion Clique
What do you think about something like Gideon Jura?
Couldn't agree more. With Jund, Burn, and Jeskai now being among the top decks, not having Purge in the 75 feels wrong.
EDIT: If I were to play Jeskai again, it would be with 4x Remand, 4x Nahiri and 1x Emrakul
I'd love to work on an AV shell as well, so if you have anything in mind at the moment, please let me know!
THIS ^^^
Let's imagine the wafo list never existed. How would we go about building a control deck (be that draw-go or tappout) that attacks the current metagame?
I've been running a similar list for a bit with quite a bit of success. I know FNM doesn't mean a lot, but I can't remember the last time I went below 3-1. Considering how many creature-based decks are at the top of the meta, I feel 4x Verdict 2x Elspeth is a great place to be.
Edit: Cutting snapcaster is interesting. I find myself boarding him out a fair bit, I might have to try that out just to see...
Honestly, I've never really liked WSZ. I've been playing with a pair of Elspeths for a while and it's been working out great for me... I guess it's just more my style.
The way I see it, while you *can* grind Zenith's forever, why not just drop Elspeth and call it a day? Especially in a format where Burn, Infect, and Affinity are among the top decks, the last thing I want to be doing is waiting to draw my 1-of win-con. I think having a second wincon makes Esper Charms a bit better as well
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
4x Esper Charm
2x Logic Knot
4x Path to Exile
2x Remand
4x Spell Snare
2x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Think Twice
4x Supreme Verdict
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Celestial Purge
2x Condemn
1x Dispel
1x Merciless Eviction
1x Negate
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Thoughtseize
G1: Mono-White Eldrazi Hatebears (2-0) -
Pretty cool deck. Running Thalia/Arbiter as the 2-drops, curving out into Displacer, TKS and Reality Smasher.
SB: -2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion -2x Snapcaster Mage +2x Condemn +2x Baneslayer Angel
I boarded out Elspeth because I was bringing in Baneslayer (better against Thalia and Reality Smasher), and the 2x Snapcaster Mage because I thought he might board into something like Relic of Progenitus.
___
G2: Burn (2-1) -
Honestly, I just got kinda lucky both games I won. G2 he drew 8 lands, and G3 he drew 6.
SB: -4x Supreme Verdict -2x Remand -2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion +2x Condemn +2x Celestial Purge +2x Baneslayer Angel +1x Dispel +1x Negate
I like Cryptic more than Verdict when I have 8 removal spells post-board. Blood Moon kinda sucks, but we don't always draw fetches/basics anyway.
___
G3: Jeskai Thopter Sword (0-2) -
G1 he goes T1 Vision T2 Vision. I couldn't find a Remand, and he eventually beats me down with Snap/Bolt/Helix. G2 was similar to the first. He brought in Staticaster to keep my Elspeths in check, and I just couldn't find the right action.
SB: -4x Supreme Verdict (would've liked 1) -2x Path to Exile (would've liked 3) +2x Thoughtseize +1x Dispel +1x Negate +2x Celestial Purge (hits Ajani, which I saw G1, Thopter Foundry and potential Keranos from the side).
___
G4: Affinity (2-1) -
SB: -2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion -2x Remand +2x Stony Silence +2x Baneslayer Angel