Oh right. Hmmm, so how do we get Hatchery Spider into our hand so that we can cast it?
Edit: Oh, we can use Vivien's Arkbow instead. We can animate Vivien's Arkbow using either Dance of the Manse or Bring to Life from Animating Faerie. We can then have Spark Double come as a copy of it. Animate Spark Double, use Quasiduplicate to make a copy of it, then animate the copy. We can then copy the animated token as many times as we please. So that should work fine, I think.
Hmmm yes - I guess we can have two Hatchery Spiders, and use Adventurous Impulse to bring them to our hand. Then we can cast and counter both. But, we would need four creatures in our graveyard to cast Spark Double as well. Perhaps another two cheap green creatures, like Leafkin Druid, that we can cast and counter.
Edit: Oh whoops, Spark Double is not a green card! So actually, it is easier: Just add one more Maraleaf Pixie.
Oof, I was assembling the deck based on the Truefire Captain version, but then I noticed that we won't have the red mana to cast Role Reversal, nor can we afford to spend life at that point. So, it looks like it's back to one of the Heliod's Intervention decks.
Edit: Dammit. If we try to use white mana late, for Heliod's Intervention, then we can't have any white mana lands, since they can be untapped by Kiora Bests the Sea God. But we need white mana to get started, so I don't think we can get started by turn 3 if we don't have white mana lands. And we can't have red mana late, because we need it for Role Reversal. So either we use black mana late, or go back to The Akroan War. I'll see what I can salvage from this.
I don't suppose there are any cards that get us white mana just once, and can't be untapped for more?
Edit: So, the best chain that we had using The Akroan War got us to about 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 13) -> 13)-> 13. But, perhaps we can stick with the Kiora Bests the Sea God deck, if we can get started without Emergency Powers? Just cast Bolas's Citadel directly. We won't have as many cards, but we can at least cast cards from the library with our life. I think it's worth investigating.
For Consulate Crackdown, I think we would need the beneficial effect to trigger off of one of our artifacts dying, in order to force us to put it into play on the opponent's side somehow. Hmm, but triggering off of our artifacts dying is too late.
Of course, fixing the problems in the deck is the higher priority. It may not be possible to fix everything without losing more card slots, and the above change doesn't get us a more efficient 7 or 8 stage setup, since we need two more cards to get the K'rrik change working.
It doesn't look like a problem to go off on turn 3 on the play, rather than turn 3 on the draw. The former should be considered "faster" in terms of the optimal deck, I think.
Yeah, I'm not sure that there is much that we can trigger from Aether Snap, plus it is a sorcery so it will trigger Spellweaver Volute.
There is Bane of Progress, which I guess we can couple with Risen Reef to draw cards... but again, nothing is forcing us to play those cards before the artifact destruction.
Ooh, Terrarion would be very nice! Unfortunately, the odds of a particular card being reprinted in the next two sets is probably pretty low...
Instead of using life to pay for Deafening Clarion, we can pay life to Vilis, Broker of Blood, and trigger the drawing of many cards. Then, we can donate many copies of Underworld Dreams to the enemy, triggering a lot of damage instances directed at us, for each card drawn. We can then cast Gideon's Sacrifice, and target a lot of copies of Martyr for the Cause, and kill them all with damage. That should get us two layers from life to creature destruction. I guess that is the same as Deafening Clarion. So, this is just a third deck with Bolas's Citadel that deals more than 3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 14 damage.
We can't do the same trick for the Truefire Captain decks, since we could use the Gideon's Sacrifice to deal damage to the Truefire Captains instead, creating a loop.
Are there other cards like Kalemne's Captain, that causes all artifact tokens to be removed from play, and can trigger some beneficial ability? Such a card would have the potential to greatly simply the hyperstage, perhaps.
jfb1337: Good to see you still working on the Busy Beaver deck, I wish you the best of luck!
FortyTwo: Just noticed your old post bringing up Kelemne's Captain. While it does come with a destructive effect, we also need a beneficial effect to warrant us activating the ability. I don't know of any card that has a triggered ability for becoming monstrous or adding +1/+1 counters. Something like an ability that removes +1/+1 counters won't work, because we aren't forced to use that ability before the destructive trigger from Kelemne's Captain is resolved.
Edit: Hmm, I guess there is Generous Patron? So we could combine that card with donation shenanigans, so that we could activate the monstrous ability and the exchange the Kalemne's Captain with the opponent, so that Generous Patron triggers. So that is a possibility. But, drawing a card is a pretty powerful effect in this deck. It would seem to moot Acorn Harvest later, for instance. Also, if we want to position it in between Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Child of Alara, we would have to destroy whatever creature tokens are used in the hyperstage - but we only destroy artifacts and enchantments. So it would have to be an enchantment creature? I don't know of one suitable.
Or, we could just have it replace the current hyperstage, and possibly be more efficient and less troublesome? I suppose we could use it to draw Battle Cry, or whatever card we are using to create more artifact resource tokens. But, there is still the problem of being able to draw the higher instants sorceries. I guess we could make sure that all the higher instants and sorceries were of unavailable colors? That might be pretty tough, but I guess it is worth investigating.
Another possibility is, could we use Kalemne's Captain for an additional hyperstage? I guess it's possible. Since it's a separate structure from the gigastage, it's okay that Child of Alara and Worldfire destroy artifacts and enchantments, since we would only process the gigastage above the new hyperstage, where we would have exhausted all of the new stage and hyperstage resources. We couldn't use artifact tokens for the new stage though, since it can get targeted by the first stage artifact creature. Oh, and we can't use enchantment creature either because of our enchantment setup. So I guess this doesn't work.
But, I guess I'll look into the possibility of replacing the current hyperstage.
Edit: Meh, I don't like the draw trigger - nothing is forcing us to play the card when we draw it.
The second stage basically works the same way as the first. You will have two abilities that you can activate, at the cost of some amount of a resource. You alternate activating the abilities, so that you have a stack of alternating layers. Then you resolve the stack, and each time you resolve one ability followed by the other, you are able to get the appropriate amount of your resource back. The difference is, for the second stage, you will also generate some amount of the first stage resource at some point in the resolution of the stack. So just come up with some way to make a stage just like the one we currently have, except with a different resource; after that, finding a way to produce blue mana shouldn't be too hard.
In the last post, I said that using enter-the-battlefield effects for one of the abilities might be hard, if the new stage is "below" the current stage; but, I guess it's not so bad, if we use the ETB effect of a noncreature permanent?
Since we need a creature to be both hasted and untapped to use it, I suppose we could have the second stage use abilities that give haste to a creature and untap a creature, if the creature (or permanent turned into a creature) came into play tapped. The problem is, once it is hasted, we can just keep untapping it for more uses. So, perhaps a permanent that had to be both tapped and sacrificed to be used? Preferably a noncreature permanent that we had to turn into a creature, so that we couldn't just make a lot of copies of it. But, I don't know of any permanent that fits all of the above requirements.
Hmm, some interesting food for thought. I think that the first thing to concentrate on is the stage process itself - we need to have an stack of alternating layers, with a way to spend and return our stage resource (presumably mana of some color, but could also be life maybe). To get a group of abilities, it looks like we need to use instants/sorceries along with Thousand-Year Storm, or perhaps an enter the battlefield effect, along with Yarok, the Desecrated. Enter the battlefield effects look problematic though, if we are trying to put a stage above our current stage. (I suppose we could try to put a stage below the current stage, but that seems difficult as well.) So instants/sorceries seem like the most likely option.
We have cards like Samut's Sprint for haste, and Rally to Battle for untapping, but both of those can affect many creatures, so we would get a lot more mana than we want to. Somehow, we need to need both of the stage abilities in order to produce the required mana. I don't see immediately how to do that - I guess that's our big task for now.
Hmm... I guess we should always be checking the new expansions to see if there is anything of use.
Exiling cards is not that big a deal now that we have Mirror of Fate, so Escape seems akin to Flashback. Adventure is certainly an unusual and interesting mechanic - the obvious use is to somehow fetch it as a creature card, and then cast the instant or sorcery. So I guess, we could use an adventure card as one of the trigger sorceries. Interestingly, adventure cards are not instants or sorcery cards when they are in the graveyard, so Goblin Dark-Dwellers can't cast them, which is nice. So, how could we use mana or life to fetch a creature card, and how would this be better than what we have already?
Bolas's Citadel is an interesting card. Again, the obvious use is to cast one of the trigger sorceries. It would seem it would most easily be for the gigastage though, since if we used it for the megastage, what's to stop use from using it to cast the gigastage sorcery? It seems like that could work, but again the question is how this is an improvement. I guess one way it could be better is, we could have it cost 1 or 2 life rather than 3, which might be easier to work with?
There's also Precognition Field and Experimental Frenzy, again looking at trigger sorceries. I don't think we can use them for both trigger sorceries, since I don't think we can have both the megastage and gigastage be mana-based; having the megastage be mana-based means we need to use Worldpurge in the gigastage, but that would eliminate all our gigastage mana. But, we could use it for the gigastage, or we could possibly use it for the megastage, and have the gigastage sorcery be of a color that we don't have. (So perhaps Acorn Harvest, with no green) I dunno.
I guess there are a lot of interesting new cards, but I can't think of anything that jumps out - the problem is that I'm not sure exactly what we are looking for to improve the gigastage part of the combo. Perhaps we could improve the layer sequence at the end, although we have precious few cards to work with there.
Edit: Hmm, Adventure cards can actually help the ending layers. Use On Alert to untap many copies of Xathrid Gorgon, then use Usher to Safety to bounce Silverflame Squire many times. Coupled with Consecrated Sphinx and Sphinx of Enlightenment, that takes us up to F_{w^4 + w6 + 5}, an improvement of two layers.
Edit: Heh nope, we can bounce those adventure cards when they are creatures, using our stage creatures.
Edit: Hmm, the Chalice of the Void deck doesn't use white, so we couldn't cast our Adventure creatures from exile. So perhaps we can fit them in that deck? But no, we can cast the Adventure cards as creatures, and get Bloodbond March triggers. Return them to the battlefield, and bounce them back to our hand with Xathrid Gorgon or Royal Assassin. Then we can repeatedly cast them as instants/sorceries, until we need to refresh our Bloodbond March triggers, at which point we can just cast them as creatures again. So that goes infinite.
The Beanstalk Giant dying at 0/0 seems to be fine, since we have to get him back to our hand to cast Fertile Footsteps. We can give them the white Gate with Clackbridge Troll, then using a [c}Role Reversal[/c] to exchange an animated Mobilized District with a Goat token, then another Role Reversal to exchange a white Gate with Mobilized District. We can donate an animated Nyx Lotus, but does that go infinite?
But yeah, the other two points seem to be problems. I thought that there were more ways to put lands into play, but looking it up again, there aren't that many options. All the ones that put lands into play untapped seem to be too cheap. Chulane, Teller of Tales, seemed like it might be promising, except that it can also bounce creatures back to your hand, which can trigger the triggered ability again and again. So, I don't see an immediate fix there. And yeah, Spark Double is a problem for the planeswalkers, since we can kill them off with damage, and then recycle them since they are creature cards. So even if we find a fix for the land problem, if we just remove planeswalkers, that would drop it down to 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 15) -> 15, which would just be a tie for the lead.
So, right now top versions are the two that obtain 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 14) -> 14 with Bolas's Citadel, and the two that obtain 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 15) -> 15 without it; none of those seem to have either of those two aforementioned problems, at least.
Edit: Oh right, we can donate a Nyx Lotus and untap it. Welp, that kind of screws up all the decks then. But, we can just remove the Nyx Lotus portion of those. So 3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 14 for Bolas's Citadel, 3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 15 for non-Citadel.
So, I haven't gotten around to refamiliarizing myself with the Chalice of the Void deck, which looks like it might take some effort. Anyway, it appears that there are some problems that we still need to fix with the deck. With my older decks, I don't think that we actually have any outstanding problems, it's just that we haven't really given them a thorough look. So, I thought we might go back to them, and see how close they are to being finished.
It's been quite a while since I've looked at those though, so I have to refamiliarize myself with those as well. I'm also not sure what our most updated version of those decks were - here is a decklist I found for the Bramblewood Paragon deck:
Edit: Oh, we can use Vivien's Arkbow instead. We can animate Vivien's Arkbow using either Dance of the Manse or Bring to Life from Animating Faerie. We can then have Spark Double come as a copy of it. Animate Spark Double, use Quasiduplicate to make a copy of it, then animate the copy. We can then copy the animated token as many times as we please. So that should work fine, I think.
Edit: Oh whoops, Spark Double is not a green card! So actually, it is easier: Just add one more Maraleaf Pixie.
Edit: Also, Adventurous Impulse is not in Standard anymore... but Incubation // Incongruity should work fine.
1 Leyline of abundance
2 Leyline of abundance
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
5 Maraleaf Pixie
6 Blood Crypt
7 Bolas's Citadel
8 ?
9 ?
Utility
10 Dance of the Manse
11 Thousand Year Storm
12 Leyline of Anticipation
13 Rhythm of the Wild
14 Spark Double
15 Devious Cover-up
16 Quasiduplicate
17 Frilled Mystic
18 Scholar of the Ages
19 Vivien's Invocation
20 Collision // Colossus
R Mana
21 Samut's Sprint
22 Mountain
23 Nikya of the Old Ways
24 Aether Gust
B Mana
25 Beanstalk Giant
26 Silverflame Squire
27 Soul Salvage
Saga
28 Kiora Bests the Sea God
29 Clackbridge Troll
30 Role Reversal
31 Mobilized District
32 Arboreal Grazer
33 Martyr for the Cause
34 Teysa Karlov
35 Underworld Dreams
36 Gideon's Sacrifice
37 Vilis, Broker of Blood
Life Gain
38 Grasping Thrull
39 Angel of Vitality
40 Heliod's Intervention
White Mana
41 Smothering Tithe
42 Happily Ever After
18 card slots left, plenty to help get started.
Edit: Dammit. If we try to use white mana late, for Heliod's Intervention, then we can't have any white mana lands, since they can be untapped by Kiora Bests the Sea God. But we need white mana to get started, so I don't think we can get started by turn 3 if we don't have white mana lands. And we can't have red mana late, because we need it for Role Reversal. So either we use black mana late, or go back to The Akroan War. I'll see what I can salvage from this.
I don't suppose there are any cards that get us white mana just once, and can't be untapped for more?
Edit: So, the best chain that we had using The Akroan War got us to about 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 13) -> 13)-> 13. But, perhaps we can stick with the Kiora Bests the Sea God deck, if we can get started without Emergency Powers? Just cast Bolas's Citadel directly. We won't have as many cards, but we can at least cast cards from the library with our life. I think it's worth investigating.
Edit: So, boing back to the Chalice of the Void deck. The idea to use Highland Game didn't work - but, it appears that we can use Army of the Damned to spend 6 life, and get it back with two copies of Centaur Safeguard? So we get something like
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death's Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Chalice of the Void
7 Mimic Vat
8 Omniscience
9 Vedalken Orrery
10 Mirror of Fate
11 Karn, Silver Golem
12 Brain Freeze
13 Allay
14 Skull of Orm
15 Mirrorworks
16 Mana Vault
17 Eye of Ramos
18 Clockwork Gnomes
19 Goryo's Vengeance
20 Muzzio, Visionary Architect
21 Hurkyl's Recall
22 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
23 Changeling Hero
24 Anaba Ancestor
25 Engineered Explosives
26 Wheel of Sun and Moon
28 Army of the Damned
29 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
30 Smite the Monstrous
31 Child of Alara
32 Centaur Safeguard
33 Centaur Safeguard
34 Verdant Succession
35 Select for Inspection
36 Spellweaver Helix
37 Worldfire
38 Acorn Harvest
39 Acorn Harvest
40 Acorn Harvest
41 Titania, Protector of Argoth
42 Multani's Decree
43 Bayou
44 Eureka
45 Elvish Spirit Guide
46 Everglove Courier
48 Western Paladin
49 Frightshroud Courier
50 Havengul Runebinder
51 Ghosthelm Courier
52 Devout Chaplain
53 Simian Spirit Guide
54 Goblin Kites
55 Old Man of the Sea
56 Sea Snidd
57 Reign of Chaos
58 Xathrid Gorgon
59 Tribal Unity
60 Sphinx of Enlightenment
which would get us 9 stages!
I don't remember if we can get going using Sphinx of Enlightenment without Consecrated Sphinx - if not, we can always switch back to Words of Wisdom. Oh, but do we need Thousand-Year Storm?
Of course, fixing the problems in the deck is the higher priority. It may not be possible to fix everything without losing more card slots, and the above change doesn't get us a more efficient 7 or 8 stage setup, since we need two more cards to get the K'rrik change working.
It doesn't look like a problem to go off on turn 3 on the play, rather than turn 3 on the draw. The former should be considered "faster" in terms of the optimal deck, I think.
What do we need Scampering Scorcher for?
There is Bane of Progress, which I guess we can couple with Risen Reef to draw cards... but again, nothing is forcing us to play those cards before the artifact destruction.
There's also Furnace Dragon, which I suppose can be coupled with Dragon Tempest or Spit Fire - but those deal damage, which doesn't seem useful.
Edit: Oh, I didn't mean artifact tokens only, removing all artifacts would be perfectly fine.
Instead of using life to pay for Deafening Clarion, we can pay life to Vilis, Broker of Blood, and trigger the drawing of many cards. Then, we can donate many copies of Underworld Dreams to the enemy, triggering a lot of damage instances directed at us, for each card drawn. We can then cast Gideon's Sacrifice, and target a lot of copies of Martyr for the Cause, and kill them all with damage. That should get us two layers from life to creature destruction. I guess that is the same as Deafening Clarion. So, this is just a third deck with Bolas's Citadel that deals more than 3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 14 damage.
We can't do the same trick for the Truefire Captain decks, since we could use the Gideon's Sacrifice to deal damage to the Truefire Captains instead, creating a loop.
Are there other cards like Kalemne's Captain, that causes all artifact tokens to be removed from play, and can trigger some beneficial ability? Such a card would have the potential to greatly simply the hyperstage, perhaps.
FortyTwo: Just noticed your old post bringing up Kelemne's Captain. While it does come with a destructive effect, we also need a beneficial effect to warrant us activating the ability. I don't know of any card that has a triggered ability for becoming monstrous or adding +1/+1 counters. Something like an ability that removes +1/+1 counters won't work, because we aren't forced to use that ability before the destructive trigger from Kelemne's Captain is resolved.
Edit: Hmm, I guess there is Generous Patron? So we could combine that card with donation shenanigans, so that we could activate the monstrous ability and the exchange the Kalemne's Captain with the opponent, so that Generous Patron triggers. So that is a possibility. But, drawing a card is a pretty powerful effect in this deck. It would seem to moot Acorn Harvest later, for instance. Also, if we want to position it in between Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Child of Alara, we would have to destroy whatever creature tokens are used in the hyperstage - but we only destroy artifacts and enchantments. So it would have to be an enchantment creature? I don't know of one suitable.
Or, we could just have it replace the current hyperstage, and possibly be more efficient and less troublesome? I suppose we could use it to draw Battle Cry, or whatever card we are using to create more artifact resource tokens. But, there is still the problem of being able to draw the higher instants sorceries. I guess we could make sure that all the higher instants and sorceries were of unavailable colors? That might be pretty tough, but I guess it is worth investigating.
Another possibility is, could we use Kalemne's Captain for an additional hyperstage? I guess it's possible. Since it's a separate structure from the gigastage, it's okay that Child of Alara and Worldfire destroy artifacts and enchantments, since we would only process the gigastage above the new hyperstage, where we would have exhausted all of the new stage and hyperstage resources. We couldn't use artifact tokens for the new stage though, since it can get targeted by the first stage artifact creature. Oh, and we can't use enchantment creature either because of our enchantment setup. So I guess this doesn't work.
But, I guess I'll look into the possibility of replacing the current hyperstage.
Edit: Meh, I don't like the draw trigger - nothing is forcing us to play the card when we draw it.
In the last post, I said that using enter-the-battlefield effects for one of the abilities might be hard, if the new stage is "below" the current stage; but, I guess it's not so bad, if we use the ETB effect of a noncreature permanent?
Since we need a creature to be both hasted and untapped to use it, I suppose we could have the second stage use abilities that give haste to a creature and untap a creature, if the creature (or permanent turned into a creature) came into play tapped. The problem is, once it is hasted, we can just keep untapping it for more uses. So, perhaps a permanent that had to be both tapped and sacrificed to be used? Preferably a noncreature permanent that we had to turn into a creature, so that we couldn't just make a lot of copies of it. But, I don't know of any permanent that fits all of the above requirements.
We have cards like Samut's Sprint for haste, and Rally to Battle for untapping, but both of those can affect many creatures, so we would get a lot more mana than we want to. Somehow, we need to need both of the stage abilities in order to produce the required mana. I don't see immediately how to do that - I guess that's our big task for now.
Exiling cards is not that big a deal now that we have Mirror of Fate, so Escape seems akin to Flashback. Adventure is certainly an unusual and interesting mechanic - the obvious use is to somehow fetch it as a creature card, and then cast the instant or sorcery. So I guess, we could use an adventure card as one of the trigger sorceries. Interestingly, adventure cards are not instants or sorcery cards when they are in the graveyard, so Goblin Dark-Dwellers can't cast them, which is nice. So, how could we use mana or life to fetch a creature card, and how would this be better than what we have already?
Bolas's Citadel is an interesting card. Again, the obvious use is to cast one of the trigger sorceries. It would seem it would most easily be for the gigastage though, since if we used it for the megastage, what's to stop use from using it to cast the gigastage sorcery? It seems like that could work, but again the question is how this is an improvement. I guess one way it could be better is, we could have it cost 1 or 2 life rather than 3, which might be easier to work with?
There's also Precognition Field and Experimental Frenzy, again looking at trigger sorceries. I don't think we can use them for both trigger sorceries, since I don't think we can have both the megastage and gigastage be mana-based; having the megastage be mana-based means we need to use Worldpurge in the gigastage, but that would eliminate all our gigastage mana. But, we could use it for the gigastage, or we could possibly use it for the megastage, and have the gigastage sorcery be of a color that we don't have. (So perhaps Acorn Harvest, with no green) I dunno.
I guess there are a lot of interesting new cards, but I can't think of anything that jumps out - the problem is that I'm not sure exactly what we are looking for to improve the gigastage part of the combo. Perhaps we could improve the layer sequence at the end, although we have precious few cards to work with there.
Edit: Hmm, Adventure cards can actually help the ending layers. Use On Alert to untap many copies of Xathrid Gorgon, then use Usher to Safety to bounce Silverflame Squire many times. Coupled with Consecrated Sphinx and Sphinx of Enlightenment, that takes us up to F_{w^4 + w6 + 5}, an improvement of two layers.
Edit: Heh nope, we can bounce those adventure cards when they are creatures, using our stage creatures.
Edit: Hmm, the Chalice of the Void deck doesn't use white, so we couldn't cast our Adventure creatures from exile. So perhaps we can fit them in that deck? But no, we can cast the Adventure cards as creatures, and get Bloodbond March triggers. Return them to the battlefield, and bounce them back to our hand with Xathrid Gorgon or Royal Assassin. Then we can repeatedly cast them as instants/sorceries, until we need to refresh our Bloodbond March triggers, at which point we can just cast them as creatures again. So that goes infinite.
But yeah, the other two points seem to be problems. I thought that there were more ways to put lands into play, but looking it up again, there aren't that many options. All the ones that put lands into play untapped seem to be too cheap. Chulane, Teller of Tales, seemed like it might be promising, except that it can also bounce creatures back to your hand, which can trigger the triggered ability again and again. So, I don't see an immediate fix there. And yeah, Spark Double is a problem for the planeswalkers, since we can kill them off with damage, and then recycle them since they are creature cards. So even if we find a fix for the land problem, if we just remove planeswalkers, that would drop it down to 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 15) -> 15, which would just be a tie for the lead.
So, right now top versions are the two that obtain 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 14) -> 14 with Bolas's Citadel, and the two that obtain 3 -> 3 -> (3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 15) -> 15 without it; none of those seem to have either of those two aforementioned problems, at least.
Edit: Oh right, we can donate a Nyx Lotus and untap it. Welp, that kind of screws up all the decks then. But, we can just remove the Nyx Lotus portion of those. So 3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 14 for Bolas's Citadel, 3 -> 3 -> 54 -> 15 for non-Citadel.
It's been quite a while since I've looked at those though, so I have to refamiliarize myself with those as well. I'm also not sure what our most updated version of those decks were - here is a decklist I found for the Bramblewood Paragon deck:
2 Psychic Battle
3 Cowardice
4 Horobi, Death’s Wail
5 Bloodbond March
6 Cephalid Shrine
7 Mimic Vat
8 Omniscience
9 Vedalken Orrery
10 Mirror of Fate
11 Karn, Silver Golem
12 Perpetual Timepiece
13 Phantatog
14 Skull of Orm
15 Mirrorworks
16 Mana Crypt
17 Obelisk of Bant
18 Metallurgeon
19 Battle Cry
20 Rebuild
21 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
22 Boggart Mob
23 Razorfin Abolisher
24 Bramblewood Paragon
25 Jade Bearer
26 Verdant Succession
27 Engineered Explosives
28 Salvaging Station
30 Acorn Harvest
31 Smite the Monstrous
32 Child of Alara
33 Apothecary Geist
34 Iname, Life Aspect
35 Spellweaver Helix
36 Worldfire
37 Spider Spawning
38 Spider Spawning
39 Panharmonicon
40 Molderhulk
41 Divine Congregation
42 Wormfang Behemoth
43 Bayou
44 Eureka
45 Mox Emerald
46 Polluted Dead
47 Frightshroud Courier
48 Havengul Runebinder
49 Ghosthelm Courier
51 Royal Assassin
52 Simian Spirit Guide
53 Goblin Kites
54 Old Man of the Sea
55 Xathrid Gorgon
56 Reality Spasm
57 Thousand-Year Storm
58 Military Intelligence
59 World at War
60 Words of Wisdom
Can we give this deck a thorough vetting? Perhaps we can get one of these versions ready for prime time faster than the Chalice of the Void deck.