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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I guess another thing we can do is to send an unhacked Rotlung Reanimator to the opponent. The advantage is that this is relatively free; in the opening without Master Skald, we can get around 1900 hacked Rotlung Reanimators, and around 2^^^X unhacked Rotlung Reanimtors and other creatures. So, we could have proper waterclocks, flooding waterclocks, "incremented" waterclocks (i.e. creature types that have an extra however many Rotlung Reanimators of that type) and flooding incremented waterclocks. This probably gets really complicated.


    Edit: Hmmm, I wonder if Temple Garden and Ambush Commander can be partially replaced by Lair of the Hydra. Lair of the Hydra can come in untapped, but we use the green mana produced to turn it into a creature, so that it can be repeatedly untapped by Mobilize. We can not turn it into a creature, and just use the green mana to get ahead in the lower stage, but then Lair of the Hydra will be on the battlefield as a noncreature. The next time we resolve Worldfire, Lair of the Hydra will go into exile, where it will cost more to retrieve. So maybe that doesn't go infinite? I'm definitely not certain though, I could use some verification.

    In the case that it does happen to work, we will still need a source of white mana. We can replace Mana Crypt with Mox Pearl again to get access to white mana. But, this seems to conflict with Avacyn, Guardian Angel. So, we would like to replace Avacyn with some other card that protects us from dying to a computation. Gravebreaker Lamia already protects the opponent from both the computation and Kaervek's Spite, so we only have to protect ourselves. But, Safe Passage doesn't seem to work, as that will prevent the damage we need to have dealt to ourselves in the layers.


    Edit: Hmm, I think we can cut out Mana Crypt and Tolarian Academy! We can exile Elvish Spirit Guide and put Temple Garden into play untapped, allowing us to cat Channel. Then, we can cast Mirrorworks, and get a copy of Mox Sapphire after we play it. Two blue mana is enough to cast Prosperity, and then cast Show and Tell to put Omniscience into play.

    That's a lot of life spent though. If we play Radiant Fountain at the beginning, we can cast Prosperity for up to 11, and still have 2 life left over for Show and Tell. That's a lot fewer cards, but hopefully we can get started? If necessary, we can use one of the extra cards for Master Skald.

    With the extra space, we can add World at War, taking us up to BB_{w^2+14} (BB_{w^2+13} (X)) I think.


    Edit: Correction, we can't play Radiant Fountain at the beginning, because we need to play Temple Garden. So we have 1 card remaining in hand, and can draw up to 8.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, I think I'm getting the idea wrong. With the heartbeat clock, a flooding clock that represents X tokens will take 2X ticks to die, and gain X tokens, so it will add a multiple of 2X to various waterclocks. If we add 2X to both FC1 and FC2 when FC2 hits zero, then FC1 will always be more than FC2, so it won't halt. We can make it halt by doing something like add 2X to FC1 and 4X to FC2. Then, if FC1 starts at N and FC2 starts at 1, it looks like the program will halt after between 2N and 4N steps.

    If we add FC3, and FC3 adds 2X to FC1 and FC2, and 4X to FC3 when it hits 0, then it takes 952 steps starting at 100,1,1 for example. So it looks like this just multiplies by a small constant.


    Edit: Oh, I guess the trick is to add 4X to FC1 instead of 2X when FC3 hits 0. That makes it much more powerful.

    Does that implement an arrow system?


    Edit: Hmm no, it looks like that just goes infinite actually.


    Edit: Well, it might not actually go infinite, but the behavior seems rather chaotic. We can make things more orderly, by having each flooding clock imcrease every flooding clock by 4X, except for the one before it, which it can increase by 2X. That has a more orderly recursion, but it doesn't quite work right; the largest index FC's will trigger first, and then work it's way down, which is the opposite of what we want. What we would like is to have the lowest index trigger first, and have each FC trigger lead to many triggers of the one before it. I don't know how to do that.

    Perhaps we could do something similar to what Iijil did, using one or two clocks per layer to signify state, except we do it with flooding clocks. We can sorta deal with the multiplicative nature of the flooding clocks by considering powers of 2 perhaps, where doubling becomes basically incrementing the exponent. If so, we could cut the number of creature types needed in half.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    No worries! I feel like writing up the article does matter, to have it for the historical record at least - the previous articles are still interesting, at least to me, and I feel like if we went to the effort to make the deck, we should finish and write it up. Of course, you have been doing most of the work with the writeups, so I appreciate that very much! I can try to do some more editing going forward, and hopefully we can finish this off. I added sections for the setup, the layer sequence, and the final damage, so I think that should take care of nearly all the content we need. Just needs to be updated to the most recent version of the deck, and edited and prettified. We can lower our standards to get it done, I suppose.

    How many Rotlung Reanimators are needed for the UTM? That's the crucial number; the number of clocks don't really matter, except indirectly in affecting how many Reanimators (and Dralnu's Crusades, but we only need a few Dralnu's Crusades) we need.

    The start will depend on whether we have any extra card slots left over from the layer sequence. If we have at least one slot, we can add Master Skald, which along with our other card fetchers will allow us to access the entire deck before combat. So we should be able to generate BB_{w^2 + 1}(X) Moraug triggers before combat, where X is how many Rings of Brighthearth triggers we can get when we finally activate our Blighted Steppe. So this will be large regardless, however the value of X may very well depend on the output of a Waterfall computation, so even here we may need to an estimate or lower bound as to the size of it. (I haven't looked into this enough to give more details.)

    If we don't have any more space left, than the best I was able to do was to generate about 1900 black mana, and then, depending on how much of that mana we are willing to give up, generate something like 2^^^X of other resources, like other colors of mana and Panharmonicons and Sea Gate Stormcallers. So we will be able to generate around 1900 - Y Rotlung Reanimators and 2^^^X token creatures.

    So, then it matters whether we need X^^^^X or X^^^X tokens to make a machine of size X. Precise bounds will be very helpful, since even with X^^^X we will be cutting it close. We will also need to be able to code the UTM with 1900 - Y Reanimators, of course.

    So yeah, precise details with regard to the translation to UTM's and the normal Busy Beaver function would be of great help!

    I think that perhaps when we write this up, we could include both the lower bound in terms of a Waterfall Busy Beaver function (perhaps we can define WBB(R,C) to be the largest output that we can get from a halting computation that requires no more than R Rotlung Reanimators and C input creatures), and then possibly also in other terms, like a computational bound, and/or a standard Busy Beaver bound, so that we have a bound in whatever version the reader prefers.

    Using flooding clocks to help cut down on resources when we program actual Waterfall programs could be useful, as could ignoring the rule that waterclocks can't zero at the same time. I'm not sure about doing much better than tetration with very few proper waterclocks though - I would theorize that the actual Busy Beaver Waterfall programs will be amazingly good, but in terms of what we can actually program, I'm not sure if we will be able to implement say the Ackermann function with just a few waterclocks. Did you have something in mind?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, very nice! So, 42 layers would require 128 clocks, which work out to 256 creature types, (or 255 since the last clock seems to not produce anything) less than the 261 we currently have. 128 clocks seem to take about 2*128*127 ~ 32,000 donations, seems reasonable.


    Edit: Hmm, I think Mage Slayer is problematic, because of the need to equip. I think Emberwilde Captain works? Emberwilde Captain switches around who takes and who deals damage, so it's back to Night Dealings, which is just as well probably.


    Edit: Okay, this start is triggering me. I believe I know how to get to Mobilize / Blighted Steppe / Rings of Brighthearth combo and get a decent triple arrow number, then go to the computation. The problem is that we won't have much black mana. Even if we can keep Iijil's start, and then cast a Burnt Offering, sacrificing a Gravebreaker Lamia say, we will only get 900+ black/red mana, and we have to use that mana if we want to build up more. So, if we need to use The Scarab God for our Rotlung Reanimators, we can only get about 900 of them perhaps. If we can cast Rotlung Reanimator from our hand, we could potentially get a lot more, but of course this wouldn't give precisely the Waterfall Model, as Iijil pointed out earlier.

    Ideally, we would want to delay the casting of Burnt Offering until we cast some other buildup spells, like Battle Hymn or Acorn Harvest. But, we are using our black mana for a lot of the card fetches, using The Scarab God and Mystical Teachings. So, delaying Burnt Offering means we have to have drawn those cards. I'm having trouble making do with the card slots we have again.


    Edit: Hmmm, do we really need Wood Elves? When Temple Garden is a creature, we can use Temur Sabertooth to bring it back to our hand, then Wormfang Behemoth can protect it from [c}Worldfire[/c]. After Worldpurge, we can use Show and Tell to put it back on the battlefield. (I don't think we currently need Show and Tell for anything else?)

    If Wood Elves can be removed, then we have another card slot. I'm thinking about using Silkbind Faerie. When we resolve a Tolarian Kraken trigger, we can tap a Silkbind Faerie. We can then untap the Silkbind Faerie to put a lot of Rings of Brighthearth triggers on the stack, each of which can tap an Arbiter of the Ideal, which we can then untap with Mobilize. So I think that's another layer.

    We can use two Silkbind Faeries to repeatedly tap each other and get more RoB triggers, but each time it costs mana, and I don't think we get any benefit from this procedure until we resolve Mobilize to untap an Arbiter of the Ideal, at which point the party stops.


    Edit: Oh, I guess the party doesn't have to stop; after a Mobilize, we can use a RoB trigger to tap a Silkbind Faerie, then create more RoB triggers again. So this goes infinite.


    Edit: Instead of Silkbind Faerie, I'm contemplating having a Gilder Bairn and using it to get to the second stage of Kiora Bests the Sea God, which can tap Gilder Bairns under the opponent's control. To keep this from going infinite, we can have something sufficiently expensive to gain control of the tapped Gilder Bairns. (Mass Manipulation?) It doesn't look like this is worth the cards though.


    Edit: It occurred to me it would be okay to damage animated enchantments, since if we dealt damage to an animated enchantment with Arcbond on it, it would quickly die and the computation would stop. So, that opens up the possibility of using the cards that required dealing damage to creatures, like Guilty Conscience and Spiteful Shadows. But, it looks like those particular cards don't add any layers, for the same reason that Backfire doesn't: the enchanted creature goes away once we try to make use of the damage, and the triggers that we have are only worth one layer. Looking at global enchantments, we have Repercussion and Mangara's Equity. Those two seem to go infinite together though. Repercussion could perhaps combo very well with Justice, but it has to start with damage dealt to a creature, and to be safe we want to deal damage to an animated enchantment. However, I'm not sure how we would restrict to just damaging animated enchantments, unless we use a damage bouncer, and the damage bouncers that I know (Guilty Conscience and Mangara's Equity) seem to go infinite with Repercussion. So, no progress here.


    Edit: I was wondering if we could get something off of Proliferate, like using Thrummingbird. I was thinking Thrummingbird could get us to the fourth stage of The Akroan War, causing all our tapped creatures to damage themselves. But, not all creatures would kill themslves this way. In particular, Master Transmuter wouldn't kill itself with the damage, and we can make it tapped even without Tolarian Kraken, if we were to remove that. So presumably we can get an infinite computation started that way.

    Another idea is to get to the final stage of Tymaret Calls the Dead, and give the opponent life. Then we can use something like Kaboom! to deal damage to them, and trigger Justice and the rest, adding two additional layers. But, due to not being able to damage the opponent lower down, we have to replace Brallin, Skyshark Rider with Megrim, which we can't link into Justice, so we lose a layer. Also, we're one card over, so we're going to lose another layer. But, we can drop World at War, so that we end in Moraug for BB_{w^2+13} (BB_{w^2+13} (X)) damage.


    Edit: Oh, I had a very nice idea that I really hoped would work out, but it doesn't quite work out yet. We saw that we were able to double up on Justice, once for dealing 3 or more damage, and once for dealing 1-2 damage. I was thinking perhaps we could double up again, by which players used and got affected by which effects. In particular, perhaps we could have Megrim or Brallin, Skyshark Rider be able to deal 3+ damage, but only one way. So, we could use cards that increased damage that our sources deal, but not the opponent's, so we that we can re-trigger Pain Magnification when the sources are on our side, then they will go on to the other side, and we can't trigger again.

    Using Brallin nicely switches who takes damage, but unfortunately Justice switches it back, so with Brallin + Justice we'll keep having Brallin on our side, which is no good. With Brallin and no Justice, we'll gain two layers, with the repeat, but losing Justice costs us two layers, and we need a card to increase Brallin's damage, so we wind up with the same number of layers and the same number of cards as a previous layer sequence. (Not the most recent one with Thrummingbird, which seems to be better)

    Megrim + Justice would switch, if Justice was triggered by Megrim. I don't know of a way to make Megrim trigger Justice that wouldn't also allow Justice to trigger itself and go infinite. (e.g. Sleight of Mind or Chaoslace) I tried to think of ways to replace Justice, but anything that enchants or deals damage to a Megrim will stop being useful once Megrim goes away, so I didn't see a way to add a layer with cards like Mangara's Equity or Backfire.

    Spiteful Visions has the characteristics to work with Justice, but I don't know of a damage mechanic like Pain Magnfication for drawing.

    So yeah, not an improvement yet with this idea. If we could somehow get the repeat and keep Justice, that could potentially add 3 layers.


    Edit: Oh, I guess with Megrim we wouldn't have to rely on Justice or whatever we used to add another layer, we could get the infinite with just Megrim. So yeah, it looks like we can only use Brallin.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, can we get something decent off of a BB calculation? I suppose with Rotlung Reanimators we can use the creatures on our side, triggering the opponent's RRs when they are killed by Kaervek's Spite. So let R be the number of enemy Reanimators, and C be the total number of creatures that we can use as inputs. How high can we get R and C to be in the opening?

    I suppose this could be a case where, when we write this up, we present both the noncomputation opening, and a computation opening (or a set of computational openings with various R's and C's), and leave it open which one is bigger. Might as well cover all bases.

    Of course, it would be nice to actually demonstrate a good lower bound for the computation. So, it may be fruitful to look at simple Waterfall programs. My first thought is just turning A's into B's, B's into C's, to get something like c^N as the output. That's completely weaksauce though, considering we're competing against something like 2^^^2^^7. I understand how to do Knuth arrows with counters:

    -have counters 1 through N
    -we can decrease counter 2 by 1 to increase counter 1 by more (increase by 2 is fine)
    -we can decrease counter X (for X > 2) by 1 to convert/add a lower counter (counter 1 is fine) to counter X-1.

    If decreasing counter 2 increases counter 1 by 2, than Y in counter X can turn into roughly 2 -> Y -> X-2 in counter 1.

    Of course, this is a different sort of counter computational model than the Waterfall model. But this would be an instructive thing to try to translate into the Waterfall model.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah, right. It looks like losing Backfire means we don't have the option to end on Night Dealings, so the start has to be amended a bit, but hopefully it should get up to about the same amount.

    With the extra card at the start, maybe I will look into the unlikely possibility of getting a stage going. Getting a decent BB computation looks hard, since we have to give the opponent creatures one at a time with Fractured Identity, so I guess we will have to have a lot of life and green mana to get it working. The normal stage also seems problematic, since it requires black mana to counter our creature casts, so it seems to only work when there is a Worldfire stage we can transition into. You mentioned a janky life stage, but I realize I don't know how that works. Can you explain the life stage?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    A while back, we used damage bouncers to efficiently gain more layers - I haven't really looked at them, because they were mostly about dealing damage to creatures, but it looks like we can still use Justice and Backfire. Both of those can get double layers for dealing 1-2 damage and dealing 3 damage. So, how about:



    If it all works, we can deal more than BB_{w^2+14} (BB_{w^2+14} (X)) damage.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Very nice!

    I thought a bit about replacing Elvish Spirit Guide with Acorn Havest, to get a bunch of green mana with Mobilize rather than one. That would most conveniently and effectively be done after the first Battle Hymn; the problem is at that point the Sea Gate Stormcaller is on the battlefield. So it seems like we would want to do this before the first Battle Hymn; we could then put Stormcaller triggers on the stack for the first Battle Hymn, then have a bounce waiting to put Stormcaller in play before the second Battle Hymn. But, before the first Battle Hymn means we have to cast Siege of Towers separately, since we don't yet have red mana to cast the Replicate cost. So we would need to replace one more card. Also, we need one more black mana to use Scarab God to fetch Wood Elves and Stomping Ground.

    Actually, at this point, it would be easier just to have the Elvish Spirit Guide since we need to replace another card anyway, and cast Acorn Harvest between the Battle Hymns. But I don't know what we would replace.

    Anyway, this is looking good! I suppose there is no chance of fitting in a stage?


    Edit: Hmmm, instead of Siege of Towers, would Living Lands be more convenient? Living Lands will get bounced by Worldpurge, so I don't think it would allow us to put Mobilize below Worldpurge. Living Lands would free us from needing a Mountain, and we wouldn't have to pay the Replicate cost for Siege of Towers.

    I imagine this doesn't save us a card, as you already pointed out that we can't use the land to pay for Deathgrip. Would it free us from needing a second Battle Hymn? Probably not.

    Still, we could replace Stomping Ground with Temple Garden to get white mana, and then Mox Pearl could go back to Mana Crypt. That would get us another colorless mana, which I imagine we would use to draw another card in the opening.


    Edit: Oh wait - I think we can replace a Battle Hymn and Dark Ritual/Vault of Whispers with a Burnt Offering.


    Edit: Could we get anything positive out of replacing an Arcbond with Mirari?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, incredible!


    Edit: With the mana from Stomping Ground, we can activate Temur Sabertooth X times, and turn C Dual Natures into C * (PH+2)^X Dual Natures. The problem is that that puts Dual Nature destruction triggers on the stack. But, we can use the opportunity to make permanent copies of other creatures (like Sea Gate Stormcaller, not that those tokens need to be permanent) into play, using the interrupt trick. So, I think we can get triple arrows with your setup.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, ELD-D&D Standard edition.
    Ah, I see. What about using Taborax, Hope's Demise, and have Dawn Evangel be the creature that we keep around?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Okay, here's a tentative start:


    Play Vedalken Orrery. (1 card used)
    Cast Eureka. (2 cards used)
    Respond by casting Worldpurge. (3 cards used)
    Respond by playing Wormfang Behemoth, exiling our hand.
    Resolve Worldpurge, bringing Omniscience, Mox Pearl, Mox Sapphire, Tolarian Academy, Vedalken Orrery, and Wormfang Behemoth back to our hand.
    Wormfang Behemoth triggers, and brings 16 other cards back to our hand.
    Eureka resolves, put into play:
    Moraug, Fury of Akoum (4 cards used)
    Omniscience
    Mox Pearl
    Mox Sapphire
    Vedalken Orrery
    Play Mirrorworks. (5 cards used)
    Play Opalescence. (6 cards used)
    Play Gravebreaker Lamia, mill Acorn Harvest (7 cards used)
    Play Marchesa's Smuggler. (8 cards used)
    Play Night Dealings. (9 cards used)
    Play Battle Hymn, get 5 red mana. (10 cards used)
    Play Panharmonicon, pay for 2 copies. (11 cards used)
    Play Dual Nature, get 4 copies. (12 cards used)
    Play Harmonic Prodigy, get 20 copies. (13 cards used)
    Play Artificial Evolution, turning Moraug into a Wizard or Shaman. (14 cards used)
    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprinting Acorn Harvest, Eureka, Prosperity, and 1 or 3 of the other sorceries. (15 cards used)
    Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Helix (16 cards used)
    Put Tolarian Academy, Vault of Whispers into play. (17 cards used, 47 Moraug triggers)
    Tap Mox Sapphire, Mox Pearl, Vault of Whispers for mana. (1 red, 1 blue, 1 white, 1 black mana)
    Pay for two copies of Vault of Whispers. (97 Moraug triggers)
    Play Riftsweeper, get 20 copies. Shuffle Acorn Harvest, Eureka, Prosperity, and 1 or 3 of the other sorceries into the library. (18 cards)
    Have Battle Hymn remaining in hand.

    End precombat main phase, get 98 combat phases.
    Enter first combat phase.
    Cast Battle Hymn for 52 red mana.
    Tap Tolarian Academy for 11 blue mana.
    Pay a blue and two red to give a Gravewalker Lamia haste. Attack with it. (5 life, opponent 16 life, 50 red, 10 blue)
    Put 4 Theft tokens on Night Dealings.
    Tap the Vaults for 2 black mana.
    Pay 2 red and 2 black, and remove a Theft token to fetch Prosperity. (48 red, 10 blue, 3 Theft tokens left)
    Prosperity. (We have 38 or 40 cards left in our library, depending on what Spellweaver Helix imprinted.)

    We should continue this, but with access to our entire deck now, and some spare mana to keep us going, we should be able to continue, and attack with more than 97 Myr Battlespheres next combat phase. So this should get us to BB_{w^2+11}(BB_{w^2+10}(97)).

    Can we do better?


    Edit: An improved start:


    Play Vedalken Orrery (1 card used)
    Play Opalescence (2 cards used)
    Play Dual Nature (3 cards used)
    Play Gravebreaker Lamia, get 2 copies, mill Acorn Harvest, Eureka, and Worldpurge. (4 cards used.)
    Play Panharmonicon (5 cards used)
    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprint Acorn Harvest, Eureka, Worldpurge, and Show and Tell. (6 cards used)
    Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Helix (7 cards used)
    Play Wormfang Behemoth, exiling our hand. (8 cards used)
    Resolve Worldpurge. Return Omniscience, Mox Sapphire, Tolarian Academy, Vedalken Orrery, Opalescence, Dual Nature, and Panharmonicon to our hand. Gravebreaker Lamia, Spellweaver Helix, Wormfang Behemoth, and Mox Pearl get shuffled into the library.
    Wormfang Behemoth triggers, returning our other cards back to our hand.
    Resolve Eureka, put Omniscience and Vedalken Orrery back into play.
    Play Mirrorworks. (9 cards used, 2 artifacts)
    Play Opalescence.
    Play Panharmonicon, getting two Mirrorworks triggers.
    Play Dual Nature, getting two copies.
    Play Moraug, getting copies that die. (10 cards used, 5 creatures)
    Play Marchesa's Smuggler, getting 6 copies. (11 cards used, 12 creatures)
    Play Night Dealings, getting 6 copies. (12 cards used, 19 creatures)
    Play Master Transmuter, getting 6 copies. Ignore the Mirrorworks triggers. (13 cards used, 26 creatures)
    Play Battle Hymn, get 26 red mana. (14 cards used, 26 red mana)
    Pay for the two Panharmonicon triggers. (22 red mana, 5 artifacts)
    Play Harmonic Prodigy, get 12 copies. (15 cards used)
    Play Artificial Evolution, turn Moraug into a Wizard or Shaman. (16 cards used)
    Resolve Show and Tell, put Tolarian Academy into play. (16 cards used, 14 Moraug triggers)
    Play Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap for mana. (16 cards used, 5 blue mana, 14 red mana, 10 artifacts)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler to give a Master Transmuter haste (4 blue mana, 12 red mana)
    Activate Master Transmuter, bounce Mox Sapphire, put Vault of Whispers into play. (17 cards used, 3 blue mana, 12 red mana, 31 Moraug triggers, 10 artifacts)
    Pay for 4 copies of Vault of Whispers. Tap the Vaults for mana. (1 blue mana, 6 red mana, 5 black mana, 99 Moraug triggers, 14 artifacts)
    Play Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap 3 for mana. (1 blue mana, 6 red mana, 19 artifacts)
    Tap Tolarian Academy for 19 blue mana. (20 blue mana, 6 red mana, 99 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Trasmuter to bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies and tap them. (13 blue mana, 5 red mana, 1 black mana, 184 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Trasmuter to bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies and tap them. (7 blue mana, 4 red mana, 1 black mana, 269 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Trasmuter to bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (0 mana, 354 Moraug triggers)

    We have Battle Hymn and Riftsweeper in our hand.

    End precombat main phase, get 355 combat phases.
    Cast Battle Hymn, get 39 red mana.
    Tap two Mox Sapphire for 2 blue mana.
    Give a Night Dealings haste and attack. (37 red mana, 1 blue mana) (I'm not sure which creature to attack with, Moraug gets us more Theft tokens, but we might want to save our opponent's life.)
    Each Night Dealings gets 5 Theft tokens.
    Tap 5 Vault of Whispers for mana. (37 red mana 1 blue mana, 5 black mana)
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Spellweaver Helix. (35 red mana, 1 blue mana, 3 black mana)
    Play Spellweaver Helix, exile Prosperity and Acorn Harvest.
    Play Riftsweeper, get 12 copies, shuffle all our exiled cards into our library.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Prosperity. (33 red mana, 1 blue mana, 1 black mana)
    Cast Prosperity for up to 34.

    I'm hoping we can get going with this Prosperity cast, we get most but not all of the deck. The biggest issue seems to be we don't get red mana anymore without Worldfire, but we should be able to incorporate Worldfire now?


    Edit: Improved the start more. Got pretty greedy; I got 1795 combat phases, but we have to see whether we can continue with a Prosperity for up to 9.


    Play Vedalken Orrery (1 card used)
    Play Opalescence (2 cards used)
    Play Dual Nature (3 cards used)
    Play Gravebreaker Lamia, get 2 copies, mill Acorn Harvest, Eureka, and Worldpurge. (4 cards used.)
    Play Panharmonicon (5 cards used)
    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprint Acorn Harvest, Eureka, Worldpurge, and Show and Tell. (6 cards used)
    Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Helix (7 cards used)
    Play Wormfang Behemoth, exiling our hand. (8 cards used)
    Resolve Worldpurge. Return Omniscience, Mox Sapphire, Tolarian Academy, Vedalken Orrery, Opalescence, Dual Nature, and Panharmonicon to our hand. Gravebreaker Lamia, Spellweaver Helix, Wormfang Behemoth, and Mox Pearl get shuffled into the library.
    Wormfang Behemoth triggers, returning our other cards back to our hand.
    Resolve Eureka, put Omniscience and Vedalken Orrery back into play.
    Play Mirrorworks. (9 cards used, 2 artifacts)
    Play Opalescence.
    Play Moraug, Fury of Akoum. (10 cards used, 2 creatures)
    Play Marchesa's Smuggler. (11 cards used, 3 creatures)
    Play Night Dealings. (12 cards used, 4 creatures)
    Play Battle Hymn, getting 4 red mana. (13 cards used, 4 red mana, 4 creatures)
    Play Panharmonicon, and pay for two Mirrorworks triggers. (13 cards used, 0 red mana, 4 creatures, 5 artifacts)
    Play Dual Nature, getting four copies. (13 creatures used, 0 mana, 9 creatures, 5 artifacts)
    Play Master Transmuter, getting 20 copies. Ignore the Mirrorworks triggers. (14 cards used, 30 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Harmonic Prodigy, get 20 copies. (15 cards used, 51 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Artificial Evolution, turn Moraug into a Wizard or Shaman. (16 cards used, 51 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Wood Elves, get 20 copies, fetch Stomping Ground from the library and put it in play. (17 cards, 72 creatures, 26 artifacts, 22 Moraug triggers)
    Resolve Show and Tell, put Tolarian Academy into play. (17 cards used, 72 creatures, 26 artifacts, 44 Moraug triggers)
    Play Battle Hymn, getting 72 red mana. (18 cards used, 72 red mana, 26 artifacts, 44 Moraug triggers)
    Play Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap for mana. (18 cards used, 5 blue mana, 64 red mana, 31 artifacts, 44 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler to give a Master Transmuter haste (4 blue mana, 62 red mana)
    Activate Master Transmuter, bounce Mox Sapphire, put Vault of Whispers into play. (18 cards used, 3 blue mana, 62 red mana, 31 artifacts, 69 Moraug triggers, 20 Master Transmuters)
    Pay for 4 copies of Vault of Whispers. Tap the Vaults for mana. (3 blue mana, 58 red mana, 1 black mana, 35 artifacts, 169 Moraug triggers)
    Play Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap for mana. (8 blue mana, 50 red mana, 1 black mana, 40 artifacts, 169 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (6 blue mana, 45 red mana, 1 black mana, 44 artifacts, 294 Moraug triggers, 19 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (4 blue mana, 40 red mana, 1 black mana, 48 artifacts, 419 Moraug triggers, 18 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (2 blue mana, 35 red mana, 1 black mana, 52 artifacts, 544 Moraug triggers, 17 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap 4 of them. (4 blue mana, 25 red mana, 1 black mana, 56 artifacts, 544 Moraug triggers, 16 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (2 blue mana, 20 red mana, 1 black mana, 60 artifacts, 669 Moraug triggers, 15 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (0 blue mana, 15 red mana, 1 black mana, 64 artifacts, 794 Moraug triggers, 14 Master Transmuters)
    Tap Tolarian Academy for 64 blue mana.
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (58 blue mana, 14 red mana, 1 black mana, 919 Moraug triggers, 13 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (52 blue mana, 13 red mana, 1 black mana, 1044 Moraug triggers, 12 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. (46 blue mana, 12 red mana, 1 black mana, 1169 Moraug triggers, 11 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. Do not tap the Vault copies (37 blue mana, 11 red mana, 1294 Moraug triggers, 10 Master Transmuters, 4 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. Do not tap the Vault copies (28 blue mana, 9 red mana, 1419 Moraug triggers, 9 Master Transmuters, 8 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. Do not tap the Vault copies. (19 blue mana, 7 red mana, 1544 Moraug triggers, 8 Master Transmuters, 12 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. Do not tap the Vault copies. (10 blue mana, 5 red mana, 1669 Moraug triggers, 7 Master Transmuters, 16 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 4 copies. Do not tap any Vaults. (2 blue mana, 1 red mana, 1794 Moraug triggers, 6 Master Transmuters, 21 untapped Vaults)

    Spend the remaining mana to give Moraug, Fury of Akoum haste.

    End the precombat main phase, we get 1795 combat phases.
    Begin the first combat phase.
    Attack with Moraug, the Night Dealings gets 7 Thief counters.
    Tap 12 untapped Vaults.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Spellweaver Helix. Play it to imprint Prosperity and Acorn Harvest.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Riftsweeper. Play it and shuffle our exiled cards into our library.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Prosperity.
    Tap Mox Sapphire.
    Prosperity for up to 9.

    Edit: Even greedier, gets 2045 combat phases, but can only Prosperity for 6.


    Play Vedalken Orrery (1 card used)
    Play Opalescence (2 cards used)
    Play Dual Nature (3 cards used)
    Play Gravebreaker Lamia, get 2 copies, mill Acorn Harvest, Eureka, and Worldpurge. (4 cards used.)
    Play Panharmonicon (5 cards used)
    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprint Acorn Harvest, Eureka, Worldpurge, and Show and Tell. (6 cards used)
    Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Helix (7 cards used)
    Play Wormfang Behemoth, exiling our hand. (8 cards used)
    Resolve Worldpurge. Return Omniscience, Mox Sapphire, Tolarian Academy, Vedalken Orrery, Opalescence, Dual Nature, and Panharmonicon to our hand. Gravebreaker Lamia, Spellweaver Helix, Wormfang Behemoth, and Mox Pearl get shuffled into the library.
    Wormfang Behemoth triggers, returning our other cards back to our hand.
    Resolve Eureka, put Omniscience and Vedalken Orrery back into play.
    Play Mirrorworks. (9 cards used, 2 artifacts)
    Play Opalescence.
    Play Moraug, Fury of Akoum. (10 cards used, 2 creatures)
    Play Marchesa's Smuggler. (11 cards used, 3 creatures)
    Play Night Dealings. (12 cards used, 4 creatures)
    Play Battle Hymn, getting 4 red mana. (13 cards used, 4 red mana, 4 creatures)
    Play Panharmonicon, and pay for two Mirrorworks triggers. (13 cards used, 0 red mana, 4 creatures, 5 artifacts)
    Play Dual Nature, getting four copies. (13 creatures used, 0 mana, 9 creatures, 5 artifacts)
    Play Master Transmuter, getting 20 copies. Ignore the Mirrorworks triggers. (14 cards used, 30 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Harmonic Prodigy, get 20 copies. (15 cards used, 51 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Artificial Evolution, turn Moraug into a Wizard or Shaman. (16 cards used, 51 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Wood Elves, get 20 copies, fetch Stomping Ground from the library and put it in play. (17 cards, 72 creatures, 26 artifacts, 22 Moraug triggers)
    Resolve Show and Tell, put Tolarian Academy into play. (17 cards used, 72 creatures, 26 artifacts, 44 Moraug triggers)
    Play Battle Hymn, getting 72 red mana. (18 cards used, 72 red mana, 26 artifacts, 44 Moraug triggers)
    Play Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap for mana. (18 cards used, 5 blue mana, 64 red mana, 31 artifacts, 44 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler to give a Master Transmuter haste (4 blue mana, 62 red mana)
    Activate Master Transmuter, bounce Panharmonicon, put Vault of Whispers into play. (18 cards used, 3 blue mana, 62 red mana, 31 artifacts, 69 Moraug triggers, 20 Master Transmuters)
    Pay for 4 copies of Vault of Whispers. Tap the Vaults for mana. (3 blue mana, 58 red mana, 1 black mana, 35 artifacts, 169 Moraug triggers)
    Play Panharmonicon, pay for 4 copies. (3 blue mana, 50 red mana, 1 black mana, 40 artifacts, 169 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Mox Sapphire, pay for 8 copies, tap 8 Moxen. (9 blue mana, 32 red mana, 1 black mana, 48 artifacts, 169 Moraug triggers, 19 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. Tap Vaults for mana. (7 blue mana, 23 red mana, 1 black mana, 56 artifacts, 394 Moraug triggers, 18 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (5 blue mana, 14 red mana, 1 black mana, 64 artifacts, 619 Moraug triggers, 17 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (0 blue mana, 8 red mana, 1 black mana, 72 artifacts, 844 Moraug triggers, 16 Master Transmuters)
    Tap Tolarian Academy for 72 blue mana.(72 blue mana, 8 red mana, 1 black mana, 72 artifacts, 844 Moraug triggers, 16 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (62 blue mana, 7 red mana, 1 black mana, 80 artifacts, 1069 Moraug triggers, 15 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (52 blue mana, 6 red mana, 1 black mana, 88 artifacts, 1294 Moraug triggers, 14 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (42 blue mana, 5 red mana, 1 black mana, 96 artifacts, 1519 Moraug triggers, 13 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. Do not tap Vault copies. (24 blue mana, 4 red mana, 1 black mana, 104 artifacts, 1744 Moraug triggers, 12 Master Transmuters, 8 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (6 blue mana, 3 red mana, 1 black mana, 112 artifacts, 1969 Moraug triggers, 11 Master Transmuters, 16 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 2 copies, tap 1 for mana (1 blue mana, 1 red mana, 1 black mana, 114 artifacts, 2044 Moraug triggers, 10 Master Transmuters, 18 untapped Vaults)


    Spend the remaining mana to give Moraug, Fury of Akoum haste.

    End the precombat main phase, we get 2045 combat phases.
    Begin the first combat phase.
    Attack with Moraug, the Night Dealings gets 7 Thief counters.
    Tap 12 untapped Vaults.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Spellweaver Helix. Play it to imprint Prosperity and Acorn Harvest.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Riftsweeper. Play it and shuffle our exiled cards into our library.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Prosperity.
    Tap Mox Sapphire.
    Prosperity for up to 6.


    Edit: Another improvement, 2448 combat phases, Prosperity for up to 5.


    Play Vedalken Orrery (1 card used)
    Play Opalescence (2 cards used)
    Play Dual Nature (3 cards used)
    Play Gravebreaker Lamia, get 2 copies, mill Acorn Harvest, Eureka, and Worldpurge. (4 cards used.)
    Play Panharmonicon (5 cards used)
    Play Spellweaver Helix, imprint Acorn Harvest, Eureka, Worldpurge, and Show and Tell. (6 cards used)
    Play Acorn Harvest, triggering Spellweaver Helix (7 cards used)
    Play Wormfang Behemoth, exiling our hand. (8 cards used)
    Resolve Worldpurge. Return Omniscience, Mox Sapphire, Tolarian Academy, Vedalken Orrery, Opalescence, Dual Nature, and Panharmonicon to our hand. Gravebreaker Lamia, Spellweaver Helix, Wormfang Behemoth, and Mox Pearl get shuffled into the library.
    Wormfang Behemoth triggers, returning our other cards back to our hand.
    Resolve Eureka, put Omniscience and Vedalken Orrery back into play.
    Play Mirrorworks. (9 cards used, 2 artifacts)
    Play Opalescence.
    Play Moraug, Fury of Akoum. (10 cards used, 2 creatures)
    Play Marchesa's Smuggler. (11 cards used, 3 creatures)
    Play Night Dealings. (12 cards used, 4 creatures)
    Play Battle Hymn, getting 4 red mana. (13 cards used, 4 red mana, 4 creatures)
    Play Panharmonicon, and pay for two Mirrorworks triggers. (13 cards used, 0 red mana, 4 creatures, 5 artifacts)
    Play Dual Nature, getting four copies. (13 creatures used, 0 mana, 9 creatures, 5 artifacts)
    Play Master Transmuter, getting 20 copies. Ignore the Mirrorworks triggers. (14 cards used, 30 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Harmonic Prodigy, get 20 copies. (15 cards used, 51 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Artificial Evolution, turn Moraug into a Wizard or Shaman. (16 cards used, 51 creatures, 26 artifacts)
    Play Myr Battlesphere, get 20 copies. (17 cards, 72 creatures, 47 artifacts, 22 Moraug triggers)
    Resolve Show and Tell, put Tolarian Academy into play. (17 cards used, 72 creatures, 47 artifacts, 22 Moraug triggers)
    Play Battle Hymn, getting 72 red mana. (18 cards used, 72 red mana, 47 artifacts, 22 Moraug triggers)
    Play Mox Sapphire, pay for 4 copies, tap for mana. (18 cards used, 5 blue mana, 64 red mana, 52 artifacts, 22 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler to give a Master Transmuter haste (4 blue mana, 62 red mana)
    Activate Master Transmuter, bounce Panharmonicon, put Vault of Whispers into play. (18 cards used, 3 blue mana, 62 red mana, 52 artifacts, 47 Moraug triggers, 20 Master Transmuters)
    Pay for 4 copies of Vault of Whispers. Tap the Vaults for mana. (3 blue mana, 58 red mana, 1 black mana, 56 artifacts, 147 Moraug triggers)
    Play Panharmonicon, pay for 4 copies. (3 blue mana, 50 red mana, 1 black mana, 61 artifacts, 147 Moraug triggers)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Mox Sapphire, pay for 8 copies, tap 8 Moxen. (9 blue mana, 32 red mana, 1 black mana, 69 artifacts, 147 Moraug triggers, 19 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. Tap Vaults for mana. (7 blue mana, 23 red mana, 1 black mana, 77 artifacts, 372 Moraug triggers, 18 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (5 blue mana, 14 red mana, 1 black mana, 85 artifacts, 597 Moraug triggers, 17 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 7 copies. (0 blue mana, 9 red mana, 1 black mana, 92 artifacts, 797 Moraug triggers, 16 Master Transmuters)
    Tap Tolarian Academy for 92 blue mana.(92 blue mana, 9 red mana, 1 black mana, 93 artifacts, 797 Moraug triggers, 16 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (82 blue mana, 8 red mana, 1 black mana, 1022 Moraug triggers, 15 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (72 blue mana, 7 red mana, 1 black mana, 1247 Moraug triggers, 14 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (62 blue mana, 6 red mana, 1 black mana, 1472 Moraug triggers, 13 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (52 blue mana, 5 red mana, 1 black mana, 1697 Moraug triggers, 12 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. (42 blue mana, 4 red mana, 1 black mana, 1922 Moraug triggers, 11 Master Transmuters)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. Do not tap Vault copies. (25 blue mana, 3 red mana, 2147 Moraug triggers, 10 Master Transmuters, 8 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 8 copies. Do not tap Vault copies. (7 blue mana, 2 red mana, 2372 Moraug triggers, 9 Master Transmuters, 16 untapped Vaults)
    Activate Marchesa's Smuggler and Master Transmuter, bounce and replay Vault of Whispers, pay for 2 copies. Tap 2 Vaults. (2 blue mana, 1 red mana, 2447 Moraug triggers, 9 Master Transmuters, 17 untapped Vaults)


    Spend the remaining mana to give Moraug, Fury of Akoum haste.

    End the precombat main phase, we get 2448 combat phases.
    Begin the first combat phase.
    Attack with Moraug, the Night Dealings gets 7 Thief counters.
    Tap 12 untapped Vaults.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Spellweaver Helix. Play it to imprint Prosperity and Acorn Harvest.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Riftsweeper. Play it and shuffle our exiled cards into our library.
    Use Night Dealings to fetch Prosperity.
    Tap Mox Sapphire.
    Prosperity for up to 5.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, excellent! We got the entire sequence we were aiming for.

    A couple of things I noted: Since Battle Hymn recovers our progress after a Worldpurge, we don't need Dark Ritual to do so. So, we could perhaps replace Dark Ritual with something like Witch Engine, if it worked out better. Also, since we need red mana to give Master Transmuter haste, there isn't an infinite from Doubling Season, so we could put that in if it helped. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to add a layer anywhere - For Blighted Steppe and the counters of Night Dealings, the layer that we get from Doubling Season doesn't stack with what we already get from Rings of Brighthearth, because we have to activate everything before they get destroyed by Worldpurge et al. Same for any Clue tokens we would generate I believe. Since the deck is full, there's no room for Doubling Season.

    Maximizing the start should be interesting. It doesn't look like we have a way to reacquire Prosperity or draw in some other way prior to the combat phases. So, we can get the up to 19 cards we get from Prosperity, and maybe mill a few cards due to Gravebreaker Lamia. We could try to save some life to pay for Acorn Harvest, but at 3 life per cast, that's a pretty steep price at this point. There is also the question of whether we want to try to do a BB computation this early... perhaps it's just not possible with the amount of resources we have access to at this point.


    Edit: Hmmm, mana is kind of a pain in the start. We blew our blue mana cards at the beginning, so I don't see how we would get blue mana now. That keeps us from copying Panharmonicon beyond the two Mirrorworks triggers we get when we play it. It also seems to kill the idea of replacing Tolarian Kraken with Gridlock or Glimpse of the Sun God to get some usage out of Arbiter of the Ideal at the beginning.

    We also need some mana at the beginning for the Panharmonicon copies - could we replace Vedalken Orrery with Leyline of Anticipation? I would like to use it to have another creature on the battlefield, for an early Battle Hymn. (it still seems like a waste of a Battle Hymn, but I'm having trouble getting early mana.)


    Edit: Quick rules question: If I use Eureka to put Radiant Fountain and Stomping Ground onto the battlefield, can I gain the life from Radiant Fountain before having to pay the cost for Stomping Ground?


    Edit: Oh, there's a problem. With the current start, we don't have any blue mana after we cast Prosperity for the first time. I don't see how to get any more blue mana, other than by exiling the Mox Sapphire, putting it into the library with Riftsweeper, and either drawing it or fetching it with Arbiter of the Ideal or Night Dealings. But, to do any of those, we need to attack with a creature first. Right now, we need to activate Marchesa's Smuggler, which requires a blue mana. So we're kind of stuck, I think.

    One possibility is to use Break through the Line rather than Marchesa's Smuggler, but that unfortunately that can't target Myr Battleshpere. I was contemplating perhaps replacing Safe Passage with something that doesn't completely prevent damage to ourselves, but the only creature I saw that dealt 3+ damage to ourselves was Hasran Ogress, which also has 3+ power.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I was thinking maybe we could replace Mana Crypt and Reality Twist with Mox Pearl. I guess the problem is donating it to the opponent and allowing them to activate Avacyn, Guardian Angel. It seems like it should be possible to replace Avacyn and Amulet of Safekeeping with another pair of cards - perhaps one card to keep the opponent's life total up, and one to preserve our own life total. It's the first card that seems to be the problem. A creature with lifelink can give the opponent a lot of life, but it won't be able to save the opponent from Kaervek's Spite after a Worldfire. Whereas, something like Solider of the Pantheon can gain the opponent life, but it won't gain them enough for the computation.

    Another possibility is simply a replacement for Avacyn, but I haven't found one yet.


    Edit: Hmm, perhaps Platinum Emperion will work?

    So:



    If this works, we will deal more than BB_{w^2+10} (BB_{w^2+10} (BB(X))) damage.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmmm... analyzing the sequence, it looks like the Blighted Steppe / Arbiter of the Ideal start is pretty darn good, getting an extra two layers over the usual one layer per card. After that, it is all one layer per card. Of course, we have the ineffiencies with the two support cards. Harmonic Prodigy supports two cards, Arbiter of the Ideal and Brallin, Skyshark Rider, and as we noted the start with Arbiter of the Ideal is quite good. Kaboom! seems ripe for replacement, even if we lose the ability to mine opponent's life.

    my first thought is to replace Pain Magnfication, Righteous Cause, and Kaboom! with Shrieking Specter. We can then drop World at War, resulting in BB_{w^2+9}(BB_{w^2+9}(BB... instead of BB_{w^2+9}(BB_{w^2+8}(BB... . Not bad considering we lose a card slot for Battle Hymn.

    Looking for further improvements, in addition to the inefficiency of needing Harmonic Prodigy as a support card, I believe Reality Twist is only used to provide mana for [c}Avacyn Guardian Angel[/c] and Blighted Steppe. So, if we can integrate white mana into the layer sequence, we can drop Reality Twist. But again, the Blighted Steppe start is really nice.

    Then, there is the possibility of getting more than one layer per card, as we see with Blighted Steppe, and we previously saw with Black Lotus aided by Dual Nature and Doubling Season. Creating Clue tokens seems to be a nice possibility for a double layer. Search the Premises should get us two layers; unfortunately, it hooks directly from combat to our drawing, so even if we add World at War, we only get 9 layers.

    I'll definitely think about it some more!
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, ELD-D&D Standard edition.
    Okay, improved the start, resulting in more than 2^^45 Thaumaturges before using Vault Robber for the first time. Not having Palladium Myr greatly reduces the efficiency of the trigger cycles, but it doesn't matter much; getting another exponentiation is more important.


    Turn 1:
    Tapped Land, go.

    Turn 2:
    Draw (7 cards in hand, 52 cards in library)
    Play Island.
    Play Stonecoil Serpent with X=0.
    Play Tibalt's Trickery counters Serpent, mills 1 card and casts Genesis Ultimatum. (4 cards in hand, 50 cards in library)
    Ultimatum puts Xorn, Purphoros, Bronze-Blooded, Tyvar Kell, Woe Strider and Gyruda, Doom of Depths into play. (45 cards in library)
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts Luminous Broodmoth into play. (41 cards in library)
    Woe Strider sacrifices Gyruda. Broodmoth brings it back.
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts another Gyruda into play. Legend rule kills the one with flying counter. (37 cards in library)
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy into play. (33 cards in library)
    Woe Strider sacrifices Gyruda. Broodmoth brings it back.
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts another Gyruda into play. Legend rule kills the one with flying counter. (29 cards in library)
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts Protean Thaumaturge into play. (25 cards in library)
    Woe Strider sacrifices Gyruda. Broodmoth brings it back.
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts another Gyruda into play. Legend rule kills the one with flying counter. (21 cards in library)
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts Elvish Warmaster into play. 17 cards in library)
    Woe Strider sacrifices Gyruda. Broodmoth brings it back.
    Gyruda mills 4 cards and puts Sorcerer's Broom into play. (13 cards in library)

    Tap Warmaster for mana. (2 black)

    Play Hateful Eidolon. Thaumaturge becomes a copy of Broom. (3 cards in hand, 1 black)

    Activate Tyvar Kell to create an Elf token. Elvish Warmaster triggers to create an Elf token. Tap both Elf tokens for mana. (5 black, 2 Elf tokens)

    Sacrifice the Xorn, it comes back. The Thaumabroom triggers, pay for it. (2 black, 2 untapped Thaumabrooms, 2 Elf tokens)

    Play the second Hateful Eidolon. Turn the nontoken Thaumaturge into a Thaumamaster, keep the nontoken Thaumabroom as it is. (2 cards in hand, 1 black)

    Sacrifice the original Warmaster. The Thuamabroom triggers. The Warmaster comes back, and the Thaumamaster triggers, creating an Elf token. Tap both Warmasters and the Elf token for mana. Pay for the Thaumabroom trigger. (4 black mana, 1 tapped Thaumamaster, 1 tapped Thaumabroom, 1 untapped Thamabroom, 3 Elf tokens)

    Sacrifice the nontoken Thaumamaster. The Thuamabrooms trigger, pay for one. The Thaumamaster comes back as an untapped Thaumaturge. (1 black mana, 1 untapped Thaumaturge, 1 tapped Thaumabroom, 2 untapped Thaumabrooms, 3 Elf tokens)

    Play the third Hateful Eidolon. Turn the 3 untapped Thaumaturges into Thaumamasters, keep the tapped one as a Thaumabroom. (1 card in hand, 0 mana, 3 untapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumabroom)

    Play Skemfar Avenger. The Warmaster and the 3 Thaumamasters trigger, creating 4 Elf tokens. Tap Skemfar Avenger, the 3 Thaumamasters, and the 4 Elf tokens for mana. (16 black mana, 3 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thamabroom, 7 Elf tokens)

    Sacrifice Warmaster. Avenger triggers, Thaumabroom triggers. (19 life, 1 card in hand, 12 cards in library)

    Sacrifice Sorcerer's Broom twice. Pay 15 mana to make 5 copies of Thaumabrooms. (1 black mana, 3 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumabroom, 5 untapped Thaumabrooms, 7 Elf tokens)

    Play the fourth Hateful Eidolon. Turn the 6 Thaumabrooms into Thaumamasters, and the 3 Thaumamasters into Thaumabrooms. (0 mana, 0 cards in hand)

    Sacrifice Skemfar Avenger, Thaumabrooms trigger. Avenger comes back, the 6 Thaumamasters trigger, creating 6 Elf tokens. Tap Avenger, the 5 untapped Thaumamasters, and the 6 Elf tokens for mana. (24 black mana, 6 tapped Thaumamasters, 3 tapped Thaumabrooms, 13 Elf tokens)

    Sacrifice Kinnan, it comes back. Sacrifice an Elf token. Pay 24 mana to create 8 copies of Thaumabrooms. (0 mana, 6 tapped Thaumamasters, 3 tapped Thuamabrooms, 8 untapped Thaumabrooms, 12 Elf tokens, 1 Thaumabroom trigger left)

    Sacrifice the 12 Elf tokens. Each of the 11 Thaumabrooms trigger 12 times, totaling 11*12 + 1 = 133 triggers.

    Sacrifice the first Hateful Eidolon. We get 11 more Thaumabroom triggers, for 144 total. Hateful Eidolon comes back. Turn the 8 untapped Thaumabrooms into Thaumamasters, including the Thaumabroom to be copied next. Turn the tapped Thuamabroom to be copied afterwards into a Hateful Eidolon, and the remaining 8 into Thaumabrooms.

    We resolve 1 Thaumabroom trigger, creating a Thaumamaster token. The 8 other Thaumamasters trigger, creating 8 Elf tokens. Tap the 9 Thaumamasters and 8 Elf tokens for mana (34 black mana, 9 tapped Thaumamasters, 8 tapped Thaumabrooms, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 8 Elf tokens. 143 triggers left.)

    Sacrifice 2 Elf tokens. Pay 33 mana to create 11 Thaumabrooms. (1 black mana, 9 tapped Thaumamasters, 8 tapped Thaumabrooms, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 11 untapped Thaumabrooms, 6 Elf tokens, 143 triggers)

    Resolve another Thaumabroom trigger, creating a Thaumaeidolon token. Turn 12 untapped Thaumaturges into Thaumamasters, the next two Thaumaturges to be copied into Thaumamaster and Thaumaeidolon, and the remaining 16 into Thuamabrooms. (1 black mana, 12 untapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumamaster, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 16 tapped Thaumabrooms, 6 Elves, 142 triggers)

    Resolve another Thuamabroom trigger, creating a Thaumamaster token. The 12 other Thaumamasters trigger, creating 12 Elf tokens. Tap the 13 Thaumamasters and 12 Elf tokens for 50 mana. (51 black mana, 14 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 16 tapped Thaumabrooms, 18 Elves, 141 triggers)

    Sacrifice 2 Elf tokens. Pay 51 mana to create 17 Thaumabrooms. (0 mana, 14 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 16 tapped Thaumabrooms, 17 untapped Thaumabrooms, 16 Elves, 141 triggers)

    Resolve another Thaumabroom trigger, creating a Thaumaeidolon token. Turn 18 untapped Thaumaturges into Thaumamasters, the next two Thaumaturges to be copied into Thaumamaster and Thuamaeidolon, and the remaining 29 into Thaumabrooms. (0 mana, 18 untapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumamaster, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 29 tapped Thaumabrooms, 16 Elves, 140 triggers)

    Resolve another Thuamabroom trigger, creating a Thaumamaster token. The 18 other Thaumamasters trigger, creating 18 Elf tokens. Tap the 19 Thaumamasters and 18 Elf tokens for 74 mana. (74 black mana, 20 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 29 tapped Thaumabrooms, 34 Elves, 139 triggers)

    Sacrifice an Elf token. Pay 72 mana to create 24 Thaumabrooms. (2 mana, 20 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 29 tapped Thaumabrooms, 24 untapped Thaumabrooms, 33 Elves, 139 triggers)

    Resolve another Thaumabroom trigger, creating a Thaumaeidolon token. Turn 25 untapped Thaumaturges into Thaumamasters, the next two Thaumaturges to be copied into Thaumamaster and Thuamaeidolon, and the remaining 48 into Thaumabrooms. (2 mana, 25 untapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumamaster, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 48 tapped Thaumabrooms, 33 Elves, 138 triggers)

    Resolve another Thuamabroom trigger, creating a Thaumamaster token. The 25 other Thaumamasters trigger, creating 25 Elf tokens. Tap the 26 Thaumamasters and 25 Elf tokens for 102 mana. (104 black mana, 27 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 48 tapped Thaumabrooms, 58 Elves, 137 triggers)

    Sacrifice an Elf token. Pay 102 mana to create 34 Thaumabrooms. (2 mana, 27 tapped Thaumamasters, 1 tapped Thaumaeidolon, 48 tapped Thaumabrooms, 34 untapped Thaumabrooms, 57 Elves, 137 triggers)


    Every cycle of a Thaumaeidolon creation and a Thaumamaster creation multiplies the number of Thaumaturges by more than 4/3. We will use three Thuamabroom triggers near the end to make copies of Gyruda. We use the three ETB triggers to fetch Cogwork Archivist, Spirit of Malevolence, and Skemfar Avenger. We make sure to have some mana available. We use the remaining 134 triggers to for 67 more Eidolon-Warmaster cycles, after which we will have more than 7.12 billion Thaumamasters, 30.85 billion Thaumabrooms, and 28.48 billion Elf tokens.

    We sacrifice the first Hateful Eidolon, and it goes to the graveyard. We use a Cogwork Archivist to put Hateful Eidolon into our empty library. Then, we sacrifice our newly acquired Avenger, triggering the other Avenger, and drawing the Hateful Eidolon at the cost of a life (down to 18 life). We play the Hateful Eidolon, getting Constellation triggers; we turn all 37.97 billion Thaumaturges into Thaumabrooms, except three become two Cogwork Archivists and a Gyruda. We sacrifice all of our Elf tokens, getting more than 1.081 * 10^21 triggers.

    We can now sacrifice a Hateful Eidolon, do a process similar to the above, except this time we can create a Hateful Eidolon token every time. We start by using a Cogwork Archivist to put a Gyruda, then make a copy of the Gyruda token. This allows to fetch the Gyruda, and respond to its ability by putting Elvish Warmaster into the library, and then fetching it. We can now use every Thaumabroom trigger to create a copy of Hateful Eidolon, put copies of Gyruda and Warmaster into the library (after sacrificing the Warmaster twice), and sacrificing Gyruda to bring it back, and fetch the other Gyruda and Warmaster, triggering our other Warmasters and getting Elves and mana. The end result is that we multiply our Thaumaturges by more than 4/3 each trigger.

    So, after 1.081 * 10^21 triggers, we will have more than (4/3)^(1.081 * 10^21) > 2^(2^68) > 2^^5 Thaumaturges. Each repetition of this process increases the second number by 1. We can drain our life 17 more times, then use Spirit of Malevolence to syphon the opponent's life, allowing for another 19 procedures. Finally, we can sacrifice the other 3 Hateful Eidolons and Purphoros, taking our number of Thaumaturges to more than 2^^45.

    We can use Gyruda to fetch Vault Robber from the library after putting it in with Cogwork Assembler, and use the last Constellation trigger to turn all or almost all of our Thaumaturges into Xorns. This allows us to generate more than 2^^45 Treasure tokens from the first use of Vault Robber.
    Posted in: Magic General
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