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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Sadly, I think Hoodwink can mess up a computation.

    If it's just preparation for computations though, sorceries should be okay?


    Edit: Hmmm, Cogwork Assembler should be okay? That would certainly take care of getting artifacts.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    That's gotta be doable, I think? Echo Storm or Saheeli's Artistry will help.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Thanks for the overview!

    One problem we have in terms of adding additional stages, is the presence of Cowardice. Having Cowardice means that we can bounce any creature cheaply by triggering Arcbond or Artificial Evolution. The "simple method" for additional mana stages was to use Bloodbond March as one set of abilities, and copies of something that bounces the creature as the other set. (Or Psychic Battle / Grip of Chaos triggers) So bouncing for cheap messes this up. Looks like there are two ways to go: Either find other ways to make additional stages that aren't restricted by bouncing, or get rid of Cowardice.

    Of course, without Cowardice, we are restricted to using abilities or spells that specically bounce, rather than just have anything that targets. For white, Aegis Automaton is pretty nice. For blue, there are quite a few possibilities; Escape Routes seems pretty nice, since it is not a native blue creature. If we go with Chrome Mox, and use a blue creature with a blue activated ability that bounces, we are forced to use that blue creature for Chrome Mox. In particular, we won't be able to use a blue creature with protection from some other color. For green, there is Temur Sabertooth, and Kogla, the Titan Ape. Both of these are native green creatures unfortunately; Kogla targets, while Temur does not. For red, there is Ogre Savant. Again we have a native red creature without protection, and also we have to use blue mana, so we can't save blue mana for later if we use Ogre Savant. I wasn't able to find anything that used black mana to bounce. Bane Alley Broker does the exile and return thing, but I don't think that works.

    So, we could start with Kogla for green, or Ogre Savant for red, since neither of those have protection. Ogre Savant eliminates blue though, whereas with Kogla we can transition to Escape Routes, bouncing Cerulean Wyvern (turned black by Dralnu's Crusade). Then we can go to Aegis Automaton, bouncing Guardian of the Guildpact. So that's three possible colors, although I think we probably have to use the first for the primary stage.


    Edit: Oh wait, I just noticed that Kogla fights upon entering the battlefield, meaning we can't use it. Phooey. So we can go with either blue to white or red to white, only two colors. Too bad that Dralnu's Crusade turns everything black.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    So, I'm trying to understand FortyTwo's latest setup - it looks like we spend 3 life in both steps 2 and 6, and only get 3 life back in 7? Or are 2 and 6 somehow folded into one?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Some very interesting cards! I keep forgetting that we switched away from using combats to do our computations, so we have combat phases available now for layers.

    I can hardly think of how many cards I passed over because we needed one or more upkeep steps. Certainly a lot of cards to go over for sure. Those include suspend and saga cards, of course. Is Mirror Universe a possibility? Of course, Worldfire keeps setting opponent's life to 1, so it doesn't look like we can have a later opponent life layer. But, we can have a later opponent life stage, since we can process the hyperstage only when the opponent is at 1 life - if we can figure out how to make an opponent life stage work, that is.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    It's been a while since I looked at the deck, but IIRC the first stage was part of the hyperstage - each hyperstage has a stage part and a hyperstage part, a megastage has a stage part, a hyperstage part, and a megastage part, etc. I don't recall seeing a deck with an unrelated stage at the beginning; that would indeed be wasteful.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah yes, good point. Orzhov Guildmage is better.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmmm... So, we can keep Angelheart Vial, but replace Mournful Zombie with Dawnglow Infusion, which also gets one layer. We can provide the white mana with Boros Guildgate, then untap it many times with Greenside Watcher. We can provide haste using Marchesa's Smuggler. Then we go to Island and Firebrand Ranger, and the rest continues as normal.

    This adds a layer for Greenside Watcher, and one for Marchesa's Smuggler, so we go back up to 10 layers.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, now that Angelheart Vial + Mournful Zombie are only worth two layers, we can replace them with Brightflame + Precursor Golem. Brightflame gets a layer, and Precursor Golem adds two, for 3 layers total. That eliminates the need for Marchesa Smuggler, so we can use blue mana somewhere as well.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    @Ancalagon: Yeah, I too started Magic quite a while ago, and after I left and came back I had quite a bit of catching up to do. Grin The rule change on split cards is probably bad for this challenge, but doesn't come up too much I guess.

    @jfb and FortyTwo: Thanks for the explanations!

    So, we can replace Howling Gale with Ashcloud Phoenix. To make Helldozer recycle Gaea's Cradle, we need to be able to bring back Gaea's Cradle after we destroy it. Something like Titania, Protector of Argoth should work, I think.

    It looks like FortyTwo's observation of not being able to deal damage once we get to the cleanup step makes Pitchstone Wall okay, so long as we use life gain lands rather than Gerrard's Verdict? In which case, it looks like we have:

    Layer 1 - Angelheart Vial
    Layer 2 - Mournful Zombie
    Layer 3 - Plains
    Layer 4 - Firebrand Ranger
    Layer 5 - Gaea's Cradle
    Layer 6 - Helldozer
    Layer 7 - Lotus Petal
    Layer 8 - Dragon Appeasement
    Layer 9 - Pitchstone Wall
    Layer 10 - Curse of Chaos
    Layer 11 - Finest Hour, World at War


    Edit: Oh right, the fact that Worldpurge empties our mana pools kills some of these layers. So we lose 3, going down to 8 layers. I'm sure that we can do better.

    One idea is to switch to Worldfire, so that we can keep mana layers later.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Unfortunately, you can't imprint Repudiate // Replicate onto Isochron Scepter, since Repudiate // Replicate has a CMC of 5.

    But yes, being able to create X copies of different creatures at a low level would certainly help with turning some of those "potential layers" into actual layers. (not the ones depending on Rowan Kenrith emblems, of course) However, each new combo would be a new layer for that combo, it wouldn't be a case of each untapping of Unbender Tine adding a bunch of layers, or even a single layer. The way it works is, if you have a certain procedure A that achieves N layers, then if you create a new procedure B that repeats procedure A X number of times, and refreshes the number that A depends on each time it is repeated, then procedure B would be layer N+1. It is also possible to create a procedure that turns X of a resource into X layers, but those have to be created in a very specific manner; you don't just get them by adding more recursion to the combo. We haven't seen a situation where activating an ability adds some number of layers each time you do it.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    @jfb: Can you explain which of the extra layers in #3090 don't work?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    There seems to be an infinite combo with Magister of Worth. We can put Magister of Worth into play, triggering its ETB ability. Then we can kill the Magister with Consuming Bonfire or whatever creature destroying card we are replacing it with. Magister's ETB ability will then return it to the battlefield, and we can repeat the process.


    Edit: Looking at the rest of the combo, it looks like we get (assuming that the infinites are fixed):

    Layer 4: Heroes' Bane dealing damage in combat with lifelink will gain us a lot of life, which can be used to return Wydwen, the Biting Gale many times (not sure how this continues the combo without Magister of Worth, but let's suppose that that is fixed).

    Layer 5: Casting [c}Waves of Aggression[/c] gets us many combat phases thanks to Thousand-Year Storm or Djinn Illuminatus.

    There are other "potential" layers in that part of the combo, but they are all based on the number of a particular permanent/emblem, so they don't scale properly. There are also many potential layers after Waves of Aggression, but they don't work, because we can't hold on to the stack when we enter and leave combat.

    A possible solution is to get rid of the combat part of the combo. If we replace Second Sunrise with, say, Heliod's Intervention, that skips some combo pieces, but at least it allows us to gain layers later on. Then we get:

    Layer 4: Casting Heliod's Intervention gains us a lot of life, to be spent on Wydwen.

    Layer 5: Casting Surreal Memoir can retrieve Heliod's Intervention many times, thanks to TYS or DI.

    Layer 6: Activating Chandra Ablaze allows us to cast Surreal Memoir many times, thanks to Repeated Reverberation.

    Layer 7: Activating Nissa, Vital Force allows us to retrieve Chandra Ablaze many times, thanks to Repeated Reverberation. (As previously mentioned, Nissa's ability is targeted. But, after all the Repeated Reverberation triggers go on the stack, they are resolved one at a time. Each time, this puts a copy of Nissa's loyalty ability on the stack, which at that point targets Chadra Ablaze in the graveyard. Chandra is retrieved, and we can destroy it again before the next RR trigger is resolved. So this will still get a layer.)

    I'm not sure how we are destroying planeswalkers in this deck, but presumably it is not so difficult to do.

    Layer 8: Casting Eerie Ultimatum will get many copies and bring back Nissa, Vital Force many times, thanks to TYS or DI.

    Layer 9: Casting Make a Wish will get many copies and retrieve Eerie Ultimatum many times, thanks to TYS or DI.

    Layer 10: Activating Holistic Wisdom and exiling a sorcery card will allow us to retrieve Make a Wish many times, thanks to Rowan Kenrith emblems. This time the emblems do scale, since we can use Nissa to retrieve Rowan Kenrith and activate her many times.

    So, this will get us about 2 -> N+2 -> 11, where N is the number of sorcery cards we can exile to activate Holistic Wisdom.


    Edit: Oh, I guess with whatever Ancalagon is using to destroy their planeswalkers, they can destroy Nissa with RR triggers from its ability on the stack, and then they can return Nissa from the graveyard to their hand, and replay it. So that goes infinite.

    Taking out Nissa will drop the final damage to 2 -> N+2 -> 10.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I'm not sure how you figure each Unbender Tine adds X layers. Let's examine that part of the combo.

    Each Heroes' Bane ability multiplies Heroes' Bane's power by (2^D + 1), where D is the number of Doubling Seasons. So it takes X power to (2^D + 1)^X. Each activation of Heroes' Bane gets copied K times if we have K emblems created by Rowan Kenrith, so it will take an exponential tower of length N to length N + K. While this is better than exponentation, it is not as good as tetration (X -> 2^^X), and the advantage over exponentation will disappear as we go up in layers. So this is roughly exponentiation, or Layer 1.

    Each time we activate Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, we add X*3^N mana, so that we can activate Heroes' Bane (X*3^N)/4 times, getting (X*3^N)/4 abilities, so that we add (K*X*3^N)/4 exponents to whatever exponential chain we have. Again, this is slightly better than tetration, but worse than pentation, so this is Layer 2.

    Each Wirewood Lodge activation gets copied K times by Rowan Kenrith, so we get K+1 untappings of Selvala from the activation. Each Magus of the Candelabra activation gets copied K times by Rowan Kenrith, and each ability untaps all W Wirewood Lodges, so we untap Wirewood Lodge W(K+1) times, leading to W(K+1)^2 untappings of Selvala. Each Selvala gets us a tetration, so this is roughly 2^^^W(K+1)^2. Again, while repeating tetration a constant number of times is better than tetration, it is still not as good as pentation, which is X -> 2^^^X. So this is still Layer 2.

    Each time a copy of Spiritual Visit resolves, we get 2^D new tokens, each of which acivates all I Intruder Alarms, each of which gets copied Y times by Yarok, the Desecrated. Each of those abilities untaps all M copies of Magus of the Candalabra. So each copy of Spiritual Visit results in 2^D*I*(Y+1)*M*W*(K+1)^2 untappings of Selvala. This is still a constant number of Selvala activations, so we are still at Layer 2.

    Each time we cast a Spiritual Visit via Isochron Scepter, it gets triggered all Tys copies of Thousand-Year Storm, each of which generates a number of copies equal to our storm count. The number of TYSes is fixed, but our storm count keeps increasing, thanks to repeatedly casting Consuming Bonfire from the graveyard. We get (Tys*Sc+1) copies of Spiritual Visit, for (Tys*Sc+1)* 2^D*I*(Y+1)*M*W*(K+1)^2 untappings of Selvala. Since Sc increases proportionally with our amount of mana, this is pentation (X -> 2^^^X), or Layer 3.

    Each time we activate Unbender Tine, it gets copied Ku times by Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient. Each copy untaps Isochron Scepter, which also gets copied Ku times. So this is (Ku+1)^2 castings of Spiritual Visit, or (Ku+1)^2 pentations. This is slower growing than hexation, so we are still at Layer 3.

    So, assuming that the other variables are fixed throughout the resolution of an activation of an Unbending Tine (besides Heroes' Bane's power and the storm count), we get a fixed number of pentations for each activation of Unbending Tine.

    I know this is probably disappointing; it takes a little while to get a feel for how up arrows work, and how to best handle the recursion.

    I will take a look at the rest of the combo in a bit.


    Edit: Corrected the above after noticing you were casting Consuming Bonfire to increase the storm count.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hello Ancalagon, welcome to the thread!

    Taking an initial look, you can use Horde of Notions to repeatedly cast Nyxbloom Ancient, and kill it with Consuming Bonfire, getting unlimited amounts of mana due to Intruder Alarm.
    Posted in: Magic General
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