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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Well, we want to target Boggart Mob without targeting Goblin Dark-Dwellers. So far, the ways I have found have been to target Boggart Mob are as a Warrior, using Razorfin Abolisher / Bramblewood Paragon, or as a 5/5 creature using Godtoucher / Soul Foundry. So those are the other two deck versions.

    Another possibility is to use Moggcatcher, which can retrieve Goblin Dark-Dwellers rather than Champion it. There, you can use the fact that it is Human, which leads to our Human deck. Since Moggcatcher has a tap ability, we can actually use Moggcatcher as our resource creature, but hooking into Humans turned out to be complicated. I guess we didn't figure out a way to hook into Mercenaries.

    Other than that, I dunno... maybe target a red creature? Then we would have to go back to Soul Foundry, since Child of Alara is red, and it would cut off further red creatures.

    Stakfish's idea was to use a self-targeting creature as our resource creature, which can save on card slots. But there doesn't seem to be a way to use a creature to target itself and also Boggart Mob or Moggcatcher. So the idea was to switch to a Changeling creature that can Champion. That makes it work, but unfortunately, we've found that Changelings lead to all sorts of problems.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, that's too bad about Vital Splicer.

    Perhaps we could have something that tapped noncreature artifacts, or gave some permanents (including Mirror of Fate) some tap ability. Blinkmoth Well and Synod Artificer can tap noncreature artifacts, but they seem too expensive. Didn't see anything that granted nondangerous tap abilities.

    In terms of replacements for Mirror of Fate, besides Riftsweeper and Pull from Eternity, there are some creatures that can be returned from exile, including Misthollow Griffin, Eternal Scourge, Sengir Nosferatu, and Squee, the Immortal. So we could imprint those creatures to return an exiled card the graveyard. None of those seem cheap enough though.


    Edit: I thought about adding card that can sacrifice Goblins, so we can cheaply move Squee from the battlefield to exile and back. But, that might cause problems with Changeling Hero again.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I believe Stakfish wants us to need to use Myr Welder to exile Engineered Explosives from the graveyard, which is why there isn't a Perpetual Timepiece. So Wheel of Sun and Moon and Rest in Peace wouldn't work either.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah, we do have Verdant Succession. But, how are we getting Centaur Safeguard and Vital Splicer back into the library after Child of Alara resolves? We won't have any Mimic Vats around to trigger, and we don't have Perpetual Timepiece anymore.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I think we still need Vital Splicer, to create lots of Precursor Golems. That brings up the question, how are we getting Vital Splicer back after Worldfire clears the board?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh yeah, that's another way to get Vedalken Orrery back.

    Artifact Mutation is just there to restore progress, so we can keep recycling our other artifacts, allowing us to create many enchantment tokens.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Well, there's one thing I thought about with respect to the Soul Foundry deck: In the absence of Mirrorworks, we can't replay a Vedalken Orrery after it is brought back to our hand, so the only way we could put it into play would be to somehow get it into the library, and then fetch it with Muzzio. So that could possibly use up the extra Muzzio?

    Of course, now we are without Mirrorworks, so we have to figure out how to deal with sacrifice artifacts like Mirror of Fate and Perpetual Timepiece. The idea was to use something like Copy Artifact or Mirrormade, but you've pointed out that those go infinite with Clockwork Gnomes. The previous idea was to replace Mirror of Fate with Pull from Eternity, cast using Izzet Guildmage. But of course Izzet Guildmage can cast both Goryo's Vengeance and Hurkyl's Recall. Previous decks used Riftsweeper, which would be flickered using Changeling Hero, but I don't think we bounce Changeling Hero enough to use it that way.


    Edit: Hmm, is a cheap instant that targets artifacts safe? Artifact Mutation is a CMC 2 spell, so it can fit in with Goryo's Vengeance and Hurkyl's Recall. Artifact Mutation can create a Clockwork Gnomes token, but not after Hurkyl's Recall, so it looks safe. Then, we can use Vital Splicer and Precursor Golem to create lots of Precursor Golems, so we can generate a bajillion copies of Artifact Mutation. And since it's castable using Goblin Dark-Dwellers, we don't need the Sephara combo anymore.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, good point. We can't trigger Hunting Pack off a Spellweaver Helix, since that requires a sorcery; but we can trigger it off of Spellweaver Volute, triggered by Spider Spawning. So that should work; we don't get a Smite the Monstrous trigger off of the Spider Spawning, but I don't think we need one.

    So we don't need another card, and which makes the Mirrorwing Dragon / Hunting Pack combo better than the Splicer combo, since then we can replace Precursor Golem by Consecrated Sphinx, which I think does more (We get an extra layer and also more iterations, since we can access the full deck sooner.).
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, Vital Splicer + Master Splicer seems very nice!


    Edit: Hmm, I thought for a moment that the Splicers might mean we don't need the Sephara combo anymore, but I think we still need it. The Splicers magnify the effect of Smite the Monstrous, but if we lose all our progress after a megastage transition, it's too long to wait until the next megastage transition. So we still need the Sephara combo.

    So we can go Sephara + Mirrorwing, or Sephara + Splicers. I think the Mirrorwing combo might also need Copy Enchantment, since I don't see how to manage with just casting one of the instants at a time. The Splicers require Precursor Golem, but that actually adds to the final layers.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    @Stakfish:

    1. Oh yes, that should be Azorius Keyrune.

    2. Elvish Spirit Guide is fine, and yeah, Mana Vault could get us that extra layer, provided we can get started.

    3. That was the topic of my previous question - can we get everything back after a Worldfire? It seems like it might be possible in the Chalice of the Void deck, but I think we need to go over it carefully. In the Razorfin Abolisher decks, I don't think we have a way of getting back artifacts - if there is another card that can do the job, or if we can do it with no cards at all, that would be great! Goblin Welder didn't seem to work, as I didn't see how to get hasted copies.


    Edit: Hmm, I don't think Sephara is enough to protect us from Worldfire. The Sephara combo only protects Bloodbond Marches from being destroyed, it won't restore what's been lost already. So Worldfire will set us back to square 1, then Sepahra will keep us from losing more from Child of Alara, but the ones we lost from Worldfire are gone for good.

    But, I think the Mirrorwing Dragon plus Hunting Pack combo that you were talking about earlier could fit the bill. We couldn't get it to work for the megastage transition, since we only cast Smite the Monstrous once per transition, and the benefits of Smite the Monstrous above the megastage transition won't transfer to the hyperstage below.

    But, could we get it to work for the gigastage transition? It seems like after a Worldfire, we should be able to afford a Smite the Monstrous.

    Yes, I think so. After a gigastage transition, we don't immediately restore progress to the hyperstage below. So that particular hyperstage will be crippled. But, when we go through the next megastage transition on down, and transition back up, then we will cast Smite the Monstrous, and then we can restore progress. So then we can do the higher megastages at full blast, and we just have the one crippled hyperstage.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmmm... a key piece to getting an additional hyperstage is, what will be the destructive effect? Looking up some cards, the only triggered effect I could find that got rid of a bunch of things was Celestial Kirin. The question though is, what can destroying all permanents of a given converted mana cost get us, that we couldn't get with Child of Alara or Worldfire? One possibility is, it can actually destroy lands rather than exile them. So something that triggers off of land destruction might come in useful here. Dingus Egg? But, lands have CMC 0, so we would only be destroying permanents of CMC 0. I don't know of any creature stages that have CMC 0 creatures.

    Could we possibly put Celestial Kirin earlier? Maybe have the hyperstage use a CMC 4 creature as its resource (Moggcatcher perhaps, going back to the earlier Human deck?). Then we could have a CMC 4 Arcane spell (haven't found a good harmless instant, perhaps Overblaze, and either empty our hand or counter it with no TYS on the battlefield) be cast with perhaps Spell Queller. Then Celestial Kirin will trigger, and we will get rid of all Moggcatchers, Clockwork Gnomes, and Vedalken Orrery to boot. But it wouldn't hit whatever the megastage resource creature was, which wouldn't be CMC 4. The question is then, how will we get back a hasted token of the megastage resource creature? It has to be tied to the Celestial Kirin destruction effect somehow, or else we could just not put Celestial Kirin on the battlefield. Perhaps some other CMC 4 creature will get hit, and it dying will trigger a targeting of the megastage resource creature. A bit of a start, perhaps.


    Edit: Stakfish, welcome back! Smile

    Edit: So, a question to start things off: How are we getting everything back after Worldfire hits? I see that we have ways to bring back artifacts and enchantments, but after Worldfire, everything but our library is put into the exile zone. Hmm, I suppose that with Mirrorworks, we can put token copies on the stack for our various artifacts, so we can get a copy of Mirror of Fate and Perpetual Timepiece, and Skull of Orm. And I suppose Goryo's Vengeance can be on the stack, and we can get a hasted Muzzio back if we can mill it. Is that enough to get going? Then we would need all our creatures back through Bloodbond March triggers, I suppose.

    The other thing that concerned me was Changeling Hero Championing Vedalken Orrery. Once the Orrery is back, we are free to act again, with Smite the Monstrous copies still on the stack. That looks very dangerous, although I guess I didn't see an infinite, with Changeling Hero now in the graveyard.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, again it seems hard to construct a stage or higher out of multiple combat phases, due to the stack having to be emptied many times.

    I thought about Spell Queller for a little bit. It seems that a natural place to put it would be between the current hyperstage and megastage, since Smite the Monstrous is a 4 CMC instant. Since life and mana seem to need to be the last two stage levels, the first three stage levels would have to have tokens as resources. So whatever destructive spell Spell Queller casts, it would have to get rid of all artifacts and whatever we use as the resource for the Goblin Dark-Dwellers stage level, without killing off the resource we are using for the Spell Queller stage level. Is there some spell that gets rid of all artifacts and some subset of creatures? That seems to be troublesome. If it were a instant with more than 4 CMC, we could try moving Spell Queller up past Spellweaver Volute. But either way it is looking difficult.

    The most promising avenue seems to be leaving the gigastage as is, and having the additional hyperstage work by triggering multiple permanents. As you have noted, triggering off a permanent sacrifice is probably not going to work, but there have got to be many possibilities for triggering events that can trigger multiple cards, other than the ones I mentioned and Landfall. Of course, those triggered abilities have to be useful. But it might be worth looking for.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I admit I haven't really gotten around to a thorough examination of all the interactions in the Chalice of the Void deck; in particular, I'm not totally familiar with the exact reasons why the Clockwork Gnomes / Muzzio, Visionary Architect and Anaba Ancestor / Changeling Hero combos don't go infinite with the Chalice of the Void interactions, when they do go infinite in non-Chalice of the Void decks. So we do need to get to that at some point.

    Getting to w^4 + w^2 would be great! The reason we have been satisfied with getting just stages at the end, is that stages are relatively free, in terms of what you have to do to get them. By contrast, hyperstages and higher seem to require the combo of triggering both a beneficial effect (that creates a lot of the stage resource), and a destructive effect (that restores the spent hyperstage resource, while getting rid of all of the stage resources). That requires something that can trigger multiple effects (Spell Queller? Or maybe something that triggers multiple abilities of permanents in play), and also another hyperstage resource. So in some ways we have to find the same things we need for a terastage. On the plus side, the construction doesn't have to be as delicate. For example, if we tried to add a terastage on top of the current gigastage, we would need our destructive effect to get rid of all our black/green mana and all our excess life; for an additional hyperstage, we won't need to do that. So it's reasonable that we could have a hyperstage that uses creature tokens and an unused color of mana as our two resources. But, how will we trigger our effects? The most likely possibility seems to me to be activating something that can trigger multiple abilities on permanents, e.g. "Whenever you sacrifice a permanent" or "Whenever you cycle a card", something like that. This is something that is rather unexplored, we have definitely been focusing on instants/sorceries getting triggered. If we found a good combo with that, we could use it for the additional hyperstage, or we could try to stick it into the gigastage, and then use the Spellweaver Helix for the additional hyperstage. If it is really promising, we could try for a terastage, and go to gigastage + hyperstage as a back up. But both things, terastage and gigastage + hyperstage, require getting another transition combo.

    Lavinia, Azorius Renegade looks quite interesting, but yeah, it seems rather hard to make it work in our deck.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    By 7 stages, do you mean the 7 stages at the end? It's just the 7 creature stages starting with Vastwood Animist / Grassland Crusader and ending in with Xathrid Gorgon. In the decklist I posted, there are 8 stages. But, we made need to give up one or two if we have to make some changes.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I think the exact order varies depending on where we are, but we need to set it to 2,3,4, or 5 at various points. (3 for Myr Welder).
    Posted in: Magic General
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