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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    @hyp_cos: I contacted Stakfish, he's on vacation, but said he was coming back today.

    @Iijil: What do you think is the best approach for dealing with the hyperstage transition in the Busy Beaver deck?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Well, we can have it on the battlefield, and then bounce it back to our hand. So, when we get back down to the lower stage, if we can do the computation, then we can discard the Automaton to Urborg Syphon-Mage, gaining 2 life, and then resolve a Bloodbond March trigger for the Automaton to bring back it back to the battlefield. There may be something in the transition that prevents this, but I don't see it yet.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, what about Aegis Automaton? That isn't required for the computation, so if we can bring it back to our hand in the higher stage, we can discard it in the lower stage to gain 2 life.

    Hmm, for the two black sorcery situation, we can cast Recoup from the graveyard, and that gives a black sorcery flashback. We then imprint Recoup on a Spellweaver Helix, and cast the black sorcery from the graveyard while another copy and Recoup are imprinted on Spellwever Helix. While the Spellweaver Helixes' triggers are on the stack, we put the black sorcery back in the library and mill it. Then we can resolve the triggers, and give the black sorcery flashback again. So we keep spending a black mana, and gain a lot more life/black mana with our beneficial sorcery. So yeah, that looks like a problem.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I'm pretty sure it's Muzzio, Visionary Architect generating the new Clockwork Gnomes tokens. I remember all the way back in the stage decks we realized that repeatedly fetching a creature card was enough to generate hasted tokens using a hasted tokens we already had, but I don't quite see how it's done at the moment.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    So, you need to create one hasted Clockwork Gnomes token, then you can build up your gigastage from that token, always making sure that there are Psychic Battle triggers from Clockwork Gnomes tokens below any sweeper. So, waiting below any stage are Clockwork Gnomes triggers from the stage below it, except for the bottommost stage in a hyperstage; the bottommost stage will have Clockwork Gnomes triggers waiting in the top stage of the next hyperstage below, and so on, until we get to the bottommost stage in the entire gigastage. We make sure we keep one token around in the bottommost stage, and then use the next additional stage to build up the entire gigastage from that one token. The very first Clockwork Gnomes token can be created from a hasted Xathrid Gorgon token, for instance. I'm not quite sure how to create the first hasted creature token period; of course we need to have a way to do that in any token-driven deck.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    To be honest, I really need to re-familiarize myself with the deck to be confident with any answers.

    If I recall correctly, we get Clockwork Gnomes tokens through Goryo's Vengeance and Muzzio, Visionary Architect. Goryo's Vengeance gets us hasted copies of Muzzio, and we can tap them to repeatedly retrieve the nontoken Clockwork Gnomes, which we can target with Clockwork Gnomes to net a profit in Gnomes tokens. (but I don't remember the exact details at the moment)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, Retract gets rid of imprinted Vats as well, but I don't think that prevents the infinite Iijil was talking about.

    Any other ideas for saving double Aegis Automaton, or should we look at gaining life after the transition instead?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    @hyp_cos: Sorry for not getting back to you for a while.

    Yeah, it looks like Allay and Skull of Orm handle recycling our enchantments.

    Goblin Dark-Dwellers is Championed by Changeling Hero; we then bounce Changeling Hero, and that puts Goblin Dark-Dwellers into play. Changeling Hero gets repeatedly bounced by Anaba Ancestor, which is our hyperstage creature; we use Engineered Explosives to destroy the nontoken Anaba Ancestor, triggering Mimic Vat and getting a token copy.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    One Recoup and two black sorceries.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh nice, a red mana to cast Recoup and then a black mana to cast the sorcery.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The problem is that we have to lose a little bit of resources in the stage every time we make a hyperstage transition. Gaining a lot of life in the lower stage allows us to keep it going indefinitely.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, that looks like a problem. Gravitic Punch can be replaced as the hyperstage sorcery, (say with two Recoups), but yeah our current method of using Urborg Syphon-Mage to gain life needs to be replaced.

    I'm hoping we can keep that system of using Comeuppance to allow for Thousand-Year Storm and [c}Spellweaver Volute[/c] can still be made to work, and that we can still get 2-3 additional stages.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    @hyp_cos: So, for the computational decks, we had a megastage (w^3 level) deck ready to go to the presses, but my lazy ass never got around to writeup up the full thing. (I have a partial writeup.) The decklist is described in this post, but since then Thousand-Year Storm has come out, giving us a spell copier that gives more copies as the combo continues, so it can serve as a way to restore progress after a sweeper like Worldpurge. So, it can replace Swarm Intelligence and Vile Redeemer in the deck, leaving a space open for another card. I think I was able to add a layer with that space, but I don't remember the card anymore.

    So that deck has a final damage number of about F_{w^3 + w13 + 4 or 5) (X), where I don't remember what X is anymore.

    Since then, Stakfish came by with a bunch of ideas on how to bump things up to a gigastage (w^4), so we were working on that all the way up to when the Busy Beaver decks started to be working on. Stakfish came up with intricate decks using Chalice of the Void. The strongest proposed deck got to F_{w^4 + w8 + c} (X), described in this post.

    I had some non-Chalice of the Void decks in the works, one of which relied on Razorfin Abolisher and Bramblewood Paragon in the hyperstage; a decklist is here, going for F_{w^4 + w6 + c} (X). I also had a deck using Wirewood Herald and Godtoucher, described here. That decklist had seven stages, so F_{w^4 + w7 + c) (X). I'm just grabbing these decklists from the middle of the thread, so it's quite likely that there are still problems with these decks, but the ideas looked promising.

    Let me know if you want me to go into more detail about how these decks work.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, with [c}Darkbore Pathway[/c] generating black mana, I think we don't need [c}Gravitic Punch[/c] to generate life for ourselves. So, perhaps we could remove the copies of Gravitic Punch, and add a second Recoup? That would equalize the number of card slots. But, I guess it's possible there's an infinite with Recoup.

    With green mana freed up, I'd like to look for a green mana stage. Unfortunately, the requirement for our land to be a nonbasic land means we can't replace [c}Restore[/c] with Journey for the Elixir to fetch it. So, if we need lands to be sacrificed and not come back cheaply in the green mana stage, that doesn't seem to work out with Restore bringing lands back. But maybe there's a different buy similar stage we could implement.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmmm, what about Blood Moon plus some random nonbasic land, and keep Restore?

    @hyp_cos: I'll go into more detail about the computational decks later, busy weekend.
    Posted in: Magic General
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