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  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    The simplest solution for Emergence Zone is probably just switching it out for Leyline of Anticipation. Or, we could keep Emergence Zone, and use Arboreal Grazer to put additional lands into play, rather than the Dryads. That way we could use Emergence Zone once for the flash, and then recycle it once for the landfall.


    What's the problem with Korvold sacrificing Cavalier of Thorns? We don't want to exile the Cavalier. Oh, perhaps it could be a token copy?


    Edit: It looks like we can revive that extra Adventure layer, by using Stomp from Bonecrusher Giant rather than Shepherd of the Flock. Four copies of Stomp can destroy Realm-Cloaked Giant, allowing us to recycle it. And this time, we can't use Realm-Cloaked Giant to destroy Bonecrusher Giant, since the latter is a Giant. So I think this works? And takes us to 10 layers with Goose, 14 layers without.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    Okay, I have a better ending life combo. We can use step III of The Akroan War to cause a lot of tapped creatures to deal damage to themselves, which can gain us life in a lot of ways, say with Teysa Karlov. We can trigger step III with Evolution Sages and lands.

    So, we have:

    Layers 7-8: Cast Clear the Mind, and counter it using Ionize, at the cost of two life.
    Layer 9: A lifelinked creature dealing damage to itself can gain us a lot of life, with the aid of Angel of Vitality.
    Layer 10: Triggering step III of The Akroan War will cause a lot of tapped creatures to deal damage to themselves.
    Layer 11: A couple of proliferates from Evolution Sages can add counters to a lot of The Akroan Wars.
    Layer 12: Putting a land into play can trigger a lot of Evolution Sages.

    So we can deal more than 10 -> X+1 -> 13 damage, where X is the number of lands that we can put into play.


    That Clear the Mind / Cerulean Drake / Quasiduplicate setup looks interesting. But yeah, getting the right amount of mana each time seems difficult. An instant/sorcery that gives us mana, or copying a permanent that gives us mana with Quasiduplicate, will give us too much thanks to Thousand-Year Storm. Perhaps 3 lockets that we can send to the graveyard after use? We would need to put them back into play without using up mana though. Perhaps Bolas's Citadel, with a way to get cheap life, but no way to get cheap mana?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    Ah - I was under the impression that Adventures could only be cast from our hand, but perhaps that is wrong.

    Bolas's Citadel is very useful, it would be hard to drop that. (We could use Experimental Frenzy, but that does the same thing with regards to Shepherd of the Flock.) I would think The Caldron of Eternity would be easier to get rid of, but I don't see an easy way to deal with Disinformation Campaign. Spells like Repudiate are too expensive, and I don't see a way to put a card from our hand into the library.

    Getting started on turn 2 without Gilded Goose also looks hard. How much improvement do we need to consider a delay until turn 3 - would a few layers be enough, or would we want something like a stage combo?

    If we got rid of the Goose, instead of:

    Layer 7: Cast Clear the Mind to retrieve Vivid Revival many times.
    Layer 8: Cast Emergency Powers to retrieve Clear the Mind many times.

    we could have:

    Layer 7-8: Cast Clear the Mind, and counter it with Ionize, at the cost of two life.
    Layer 9: Resolving a planeswalker lifegain ability gains a lot of life (perhaps with the aid of Angel of Vitality).
    Layer 10: Activating a planeswalker lifegain ability gets a lot of copies, thanks to Repeated Reverberation.

    I had the thought that perhaps we could use Spark Double to create a lot of nonlegendary planeswalkers, and then limit them by requiring them to use an ultimate. Then we could activate them by say playing a land, with a lot of Evolution Sages in play. But, I haven't found a good ultimate to use. Chandra, Fire Artisan or Kaya, Orzhov Usurper could gain life if we had Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord, but then we could just use Sorin's first ability.

    Or we could use:

    Layer 7-8: Cast Clear the Mind, and counter it with Ionize, at the cost of two life.
    Layer 9: Gaining a life from a lifeland gains us a lot of life thanks to Angel of Vitality
    Layer 10: Playing a lifeland triggers many life gains thanks to Yarok, the Desecrated.

    So, two more layers for right now, if we can use life. Probably there is a way to get more.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    Ah, good point. I think that makes my assessment without Prismite wrong as well, so we do need Prismite to get to 8 layers.


    Edit: No, it doesn't look like I require changing any of the new Brooms, so we can get 8 layers without Prismite.


    Edit: So, this Thaumabroom combo is pretty good. I'm just not liking how all the mana colors and life get mooted. I think we should keep an eye out for ways to keep mana and life in the picture.

    If we kept life around, then for example we could get a double layer from Clear the Mind, by countering it with Ionize. Then we could figure out ways to gain life from there - maybe Repeated Reverberation and some lifegain planeswalkers, for starters.

    Mana could also be very productive, thanks to Nyxbloom Ancients. We could get one layer from casting an instant sorcery that uses a particular color with lots of Thousand-Year Storms, and then get another layer from tapping a permanent for lots of mana. So that's potentially two layers per color.


    Edit: Okay, unless I am mistaken, I see a way to add two more layers.

    Instead of Kaya's Wrath, we will cast Cast Off from Realm-Cloaked Giant, which provides the same function. After all the copies are resolved, we can then cast the Realm Cloaked Giant as a creature. We can then bounce the Realm-Cloaked Giant many times using Usher to Safety from Shepherd of the Flock. We can only bounce one Realm-Cloaked Giant per Thousand-Year Storm trigger, but that is okay, since we will have lots of Thousand-Year Storms. We can then cast Shepherd of the Flock as a creature, and bounce it using Applied Biomancy. Then Applied Biomancy get be retrieved using Vivid Renewal, and the rest of the combo proceeds as normal.

    That should get us to 10 -> 12 -> 10, I believe.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    Okay, thanks! Yeah, it seems there is not quite as much mana as we would want.

    It looks like we can actually get a lot more food. From the initial Constellation trigger, we can turn the first Thauamabroom that will be copied into a Gilded Goose, and the second into a Nyxbloom Ancient. Then we can do whatever we want with the remaining Thaumabrooms; we will want to make a bunch of them into copies of Yarok, the Desecrated. So the first Broom trigger is resolved, and we get a Gilded Goose, which gives us a lot of Food tokens. We sacrifice the Food tokens one by one, doing that part of the combo and increasing the number of Thaumabrooms. Then, we resolve the second Broom trigger, getting us a Nyxbloom Ancient and triggering Constellation. This will allow us to make the next two Thauamabrooms to be copied into a Gilded Goose and a Nyxbloom Ancient again, and we can make a lot more Yaroks now. So the next Gilded Goose gets exponentially or tetrationally more Food tokens, and it looks like this is worth a layer.

    However, I'm not sure how that fits in with the restriction of mana in the combo. I'm thinking the constraint of mana keeps us from gaining another layer, so we are still at x -> 12 -> 8.

    Actually, though, it looks like we can get the extra layer without Dalakos or Prismite. So the first Constellation trigger turns the first two Thaumabrooms to be copied into a Gilded Goose and a Nyxbloom Ancient. Besides those, we we can turn the rest into a bunch of Yaroks. So say we have X Yaroks. Then the Gilded Goose comes into play, and we get about X food tokens. Then the Nyxbloom Ancient comes into play, and we get about X Constellation triggers. We can use one Constellation trigger to turn the X Thauamabrooms into X Nyxbloom Ancients, allowing the Gilded Goose to tap for about 3^X mana. (This is more than we need, so we could keep some Thaumabrooms as Brooms) Then we use the next Constellation trigger to turn the Thaumabrooms back into Brooms, and we can use our X food to double the amount of Thaumabrooms X times. So X Brooms go to X * 2^X. We do this a bunch of times for all the initial Broom triggers, so we go from X to 2^^X for the initial response of a Constellation trigger, and we get 8 layers.

    What if we add Dalakos and Prismite to the deck? In thise case, instead of the step where we turn all the Thaumabrooms into Nyxbloom Ancients, we can instead turn them all into Angel of Vitality, and gain a bunch of life from a Food token. So we have about X life, and can then use a Constellation trigger to turn the Thaumabrooms into X Nyxbloom Ancients (but leaving at least one a Broom). We spend a fixed amount of life to recast Dalakos, and gain on the order of 3^X mana, enough for roughly 3^X more brooms. We can then use another Constellation trigger to turn almost all of the new Brooms into Nyxbloom Ancients, and repeat the process. After X repetitions we get about 3^^X Brooms. We can repeat this for all of the initial Constellation triggers, so we get about 3^^^X Brooms after all is said and done. This allows us to get to 9 layers.

    So it looks like we do get to X -> 12 -> 9.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    Hmm, could you run through those 9 layers? I thought that we were already capable of getting enough mana from for the Broom triggers from Golden Goose and an appropriate number of Nyxbloom Ancients, and that it was neither mana nor life that was the limiter, but responding with constellation triggers.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    Yeah, the combo uses up a lot of our resources, so there's not much left for the stage resource.

    Looking at your current outline, I get:

    Layer 1: Each playing of an enchantment can run the main combo, which takes X to more than 10^X.
    Layer 2: Each resolution of Kaya's Wrath can destroy a lot of Citywatch Sphinxes, which allows us to bounce Disinformation Campaign many times: X to 10^^X.
    Layer 3: Each casting of Kaya's Wrath produces a lot of copies, thanks to all the Thousand-Year Storms: X to 10^^^X.
    Layer 4: Each casting of Vivid Revival can fetch Kaya's Wrath many times: X to 10^^^^X.
    Layer 5: Each casting of Clear the Mind can fetch Vivid Revival many times: X to 10^^^^^X.
    Layer 6: Each casting of one of our exile-to-retrieve cards can fetch Clear the Mind many times: X to 10^^^^^^X.

    With 11 exile cards, we wind up with more than 10^^^^^^^12 damage at the end, 7 arrows.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, I need further explanation of jfb1337's setup. Which TM's can it execute? Of course "arbitrary TM's" is too much, as the set of all TM's have arbitrarily large inputs. Does starting with N mana allow one to set up exactly the TM's with N states? Why?

    At first glance, it looks like his deck goes infinite, since we can retrace Raven's Crime to cast the other spells. Grim Discovery can get the land and Composite Golem back, which can be replayed to get the black mana plus more.

    What I was saying with 4) was that we have to be able to execute very complicated TM's while still being restricted in the set of TM's that we can execute. If you are saying that jfb1337's setup can execute all N-state Turing machines for a large N, while not being able to execute any larger Turing machine, that's great - could you explain further?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most Damage Without Going Infinite, GRN-M21 Standard edition.
    That Thaumabroom combo looks very interesting! I'll have to look at it more deeply to see if it actually doesn't go infinite, and if there is a possibility for a stage combo out of it. Good stuff!


    Edit: Okay, I think I agree that the combo doesn't go infinite, since we can't keep responding with constellation triggers. For the same reason, it doesn't look stagish to me. If the idea is to have alternating groups of food sacrifices and constellation triggers, I don't see how we rebuild the groups of constellation triggers.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Welp, it's been a long time since I posted here! Sorry about that, I had a bunch of stuff going on and this kind of fell by the wayside.

    Ever since Alex Churchill posted his construction for encoding a UTM into Magic: the Gathering, there have been thoughts about how to perhaps translate that into the maximum damage challenge. I see four immediate problems that we face:

    1) Alex's construction was for a four or five player game, whereas this challenge is for a two player game, with one player a goldfish with only basic lands in the deck. Making a version that basically uses just one deck may be difficult, especially given a 60 card limit.

    2) In Alex's construction you could stop the execution of the UTM at various points. This would be a problem for the maximum damage challenge, since it means that you could run a program that kept going forever, and just choose to stop it whenever you pleased.

    3) In order to create a specific, 18-symbol UTM, Alex made a very complicated construction using Rotlung Reanimator[c/]s and Artificial Evolution in order to make a copy of that UTM exactly. In order to do that, the decks basically had to have the freedom to make just about anything with Artificial Evolution. But instead of making a complicated UTM, it would seem to be much simpler to just create a simple infinite combo with all the power at one's disposal. (Note: I haven't actually tried to do this, but it does seem very likely that there is an infinite combo with all the freedom that the decks have.)

    4) Note that while Alex had the decks set up a UTM, in order to have the UTM mimic an arbitrary Turing machine, you had to "program" it - that is, you had to set up the tape to a very specific configuration. Alex's construction doesn't actually run any programs, it just sets up the system. In order to have create an entry that would achieve BB(250), say, you would have to able to set up the initial tape to any configuration corresponding to any 250-state Turing machine. As with 3), the only way I can see being able to construct something that complicated, would be a deck or decks that have the power to construct any desired tape. But that would be too much power, since then would could implement Turing machines that output arbitrarily high numbers.

    I think 3) and 4) are particularly problematic here - both the setup of the UTM, and the setup of the initial tape to implement a sufficiently powerful Turing machine, are very complicated. It seems very difficult to be able to do this without having the power to set up an infinite combo, which is comparatively a much simpler thing. Of course, we could cut out the UTM middleman and just have the deck implement a particular Turing machine that outputs a large number, but we still have that same problem I think.

    So yeah, while achieving Busy Beaver numbers sounds very enticing, it seems like an incredibly difficult thing to try to pull off, which is why I haven't put a lot of work into it.

    I still have to look at a bunch of recent posts, like J_kibbs deck, and the recent explanations of Stakfish and FortyTwo on the Chalice of the Void deck. Hopefully we can get discussion started up again.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Happy New Year everyone!

    I'm sorry that I haven't had time to contribute in a little while. I do intend to get back into this soon.

    Is there any reason why we need Clockwork Gnomes over Rust Tick? That might handle the March of the Machines problem, if that works out better.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Yeah, Highland Game looks good. We can switch out Mox Emerald for Elvish Spirit Guide, so that we can't kill Highland Game with Engineered Explosives, then use Roar of the Wurm for the gigastage transition.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmmm, but I think we only need blue mana for Muzzio, Visionary Architect? So if we are just generating mana by repeatedly casting Hurkyl's Recall, we don't need to get hasted copies of Silver Myr.

    We do have the possibility of getting a ninth stage if we switch the gigastage to green mana; otherwise, we have to keep looking.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    That looks really interesting! I've been procrastinating really trying to come to grips with the Chalice interactions, maybe after the holidays.

    @J_kibbs: Unfortunately, I don't really have the energy right now to try to analyze your deck. But best of luck with it!
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    bouncing Changeling Hero seems frequent enough for everything except Clockwork Gnomes (or whatever our stage srtifact creature turns out to be), unless I am missing something. And that would be something we need to sort out. Since we are imprinting it on Mimic Vat, we can put the artifact creature back in the graveyard by imprinting something else - presumably something that we can get back from exile. Misthollow Griffin seems like an obvious candidate, since it requires blue mana to cast. We would have to find a way to destroy it cheaply enough though; perhaps something targeting flying creatures? Other options like Nosferatu Sengir and Squee, the Immortal cost the wrong kind of mana.
    Posted in: Magic General
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