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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh no, not at all... we can just replace Clash of Realities with Gruul Ragebeast (along with a donatable creature like Akroan Horse or Sleeper Agent) or Frontier Siege (along with Akroan Horse and Elspeth, Sun's Champion). So, no worries yet. In fact, we can dismantle much of the original combo, if it's necessary to preserve the new one, since the new one is so much more powerful. So the whole Gruul Ragebeast / Guilty Conscience / Rite of Passage / Sinking Feeling sequence can be removed if necessary, as can Mimic Vat.

    Thanks for the heads up!
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Breaking news - I have just found a very interesting interaction between Elvish Spirit Guide and Ezuri, Renegade Leader that may allow us to create a deck that can blow the current champion out of the water.

    We will use the same setup as in the above link - so we will have

    Opalescence
    March of the Machines
    Doubling Season
    Dual Nature
    Omniscience
    Leyline of Anticipation
    Bloodbond March
    Grip of Chaos
    Psychic Battle
    Cephalid Shrine
    Mimic Vat
    Clash of Realities
    Guilty Conscience
    Rite of Passage
    Sinking Feeling
    Copy Enchantment
    Allay
    Avacyn, Angel of Hope
    Thran Dynamo
    Mirror of Fate
    Millikin
    Cowardice
    Omniscience

    Our new cards will be Reclamation Sage, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Ezuri, Renegade Leader.

    As in the current champion deck, each time we play Copy Enchantment with X Dual Natures in play, we get X Dual Nature triggers, each of which takes X Doubling Seasons to 2^X Doubling Seasons, so we wind up with 2^^X Doubling Seasons and 2^^X Dual Natures. (approximately) Each time we cast Allay, it triggers X Grip of Chaoses, and each Grip of Chaos triggers X Psychic Battles. Each time Psychic Battle resolves, we redirect the target to the nontoken Copy Enchantment, and Cowardice triggers, bouncing it back to hand. So each Psychic Battle trigger takes X to 2^^X, each Grip of Chaos takes X to 2^^^X, and each casting of Allay takes X to 2^^^^X.

    Next in the sequence is Thran Dynamo. Much like Mana Crypt in the above link, Thran Dynamo is worth five recursive layers, so each casting of Thran Dynamo takes X to 2 -> X -> 9. Then comes Reclamation Sage - this is an ETB effect that targets, so it is worth nine recursive layers, so each casting takes X Doubling Seasons to 2 -> X -> 18 Doubling Seasons.

    Now the new combo starts. We have Ezuri, Renegade Leader on the battlefield, and Elvish Spirit Guide in our hand. Let's say we have one green mana in our mana pool. We cast Elvish Spirit Guide, triggering X Bloodbond Marches and also Cephalid Shrine. We allow Cephalid Shrine to counter Elvish Spirit Guide, and we let the first Bloodbond March trigger resolve, and bring Elvish Spirit Guide from the graveyard to the battlefield. Now we spend our one green mana and activate Ezuri, Renegade leader, triggering X Rings of Brighthearths. Each time we resolve a Rings of Brighthearth trigger, we trigger X Grip of Chaoses, and each time we resolve a Grip of Chaos, we trigger X Psychic Battles. So the stack looks like:

    Psychic Battle trigger
    ...
    Psychic Battle trigger
    Grip of Chaos trigger
    ...
    Grip of Choas trigger
    Rings of Brighthearth trigger
    ...
    Rings of Brighthearth trigger
    Bloodbond March trigger
    ...
    Bloodbond March trigger

    each time we resolve a Psychic Battle trigger, we reselect the target to be Reclamation Sage, and Cowardice will bounce it back to hand, allowing us to apply another X to 2 -> X -> 18. Each Grip of Chaos trigger will create X Psychic Battle triggers, and will take X to 2 -> X -> 19, and each Rings of Brighthearth trigger will trigger X Grip of Chaos triggers, taking X to 2 -> X -> 20.

    When all the Rings of Brightheart triggers, are gone, we use the last Psychic Battle trigger prior to the Bloodbond March triggers resolving to bounce Elvish Spirit Guide to hand rather than Reclamation Sage. Now, we exile Elvish Spirit Guide to give us a green mana. We use Mirror of Fate to shuffle Elvish Spirit Guide into our library (with all our castings of Reclamation Sage, we can insure that we have a spare Mirror of Fate to use), and use Millikin to mill Elvish Spirit Guide from our library into our graveyard. We resolve the next Bloodbond March trigger, bringing Elvish Spirit Guide back to the battlefield. We now have a green mana, so we can activate Ezuri, Renegade Leader again, getting us our stack of Rings of Brightheart triggers, Grip of Choas triggers, and Psychic Battle triggers again, and we do the whole process over again. We repeat this process for each Bloodbond March; each Bloodbond March trigger takes X to 2 -> X -> 21, and the whole process takes X Bloodbond Marches to 2 -> X -> 22.

    Now, let's see what happens when we have two green mana. As before, we cast and counter Elvish Spirit Guide, and use the first Bloodbond March trigger to bring the Guide to the battlefield. We spend one of the two green mana to activate Ezuri, Renegade Leader, getting Rings of Brighthearth triggers, Grip of Choas triggers, and Psychic Battle triggers. We use our first Psychic Battle trigger to bounce Elvish Spirit Guide. We now cast and counter Elvish Spirit Guide, use the first Bloodbond March to bring it to the battlefield again. Now we use the second of our green mana to activate Ezuri, Renegade Leader for the second time, getting us a cascade of triggers again. Now our stack looks like

    Psychic Battle trigger
    ...
    Psychic Battle trigger
    Grip of Chaos trigger
    ...
    Grip of Choas trigger
    Rings of Brighthearth trigger
    ...
    Rings of Brighthearth trigger
    Bloodbond March trigger
    ...
    Bloodbond March trigger
    Psychic Battle trigger
    ...
    Psychic Battle trigger
    Grip of Chaos trigger
    ...
    Grip of Choas trigger
    Rings of Brighthearth trigger
    ...
    Rings of Brighthearth trigger
    Bloodbond March trigger
    ...
    Bloodbond March trigger

    We use each Psychic Battle trigger to bounce Reclamation Sage, until we have used all of the Rings of Brighthearth, Grip of Chaos and Psychic Battle triggers at the top level, and our down to our last Psychic Battle trigger. This time, we use the Psychic Battle to bounce Elvish Spirit Guide. Then we exile Elvish Spirit Guide to get a green mana back, use Mirror of Fate to shuffle the Guide, into our library, use Millikin to bring it to the graveyard, and the next Bloodbond March trigger to bring it back to the battlefield. With our new green mana, we activate Ezuri, Renegade Leader again, and the combo continues as before.

    So far, this is the same as the combo with one mana. When we get down to our last Bloodbond March trigger, we use it to bring Elvish Spirit Guide back to the battlefield, but rather than use our one green mana to activate Ezuri, Renegade Leader, we use the following Psychic Battle trigger to bring Elvish Spirit Guide back to our hand. Now we cast and counter Elvish Spirit Guide, creating a whole new stack of Bloodbond March triggers, and we have saved our one green mana, so we can do the whole top level combo again at the cost of one Psychic Battle trigger at the lower level.

    So, the top four stacks of triggers works as before, getting us X to 2 -> X -> 22. Each Psychic Battle trigger on the lower level gets us X to 2 -> X -> 22, each Grip of Chaos trigger gets us X to 2 -> X -> 23, each Rings of Brighthearth trigger gets us X to 2 -> X -> 24, each Bloodbond March trigger gets us X to 2 -> X -> 25, and the whole combo with two green mana gets us to 2 -> X -> 26.

    So, we see that each additional green mana that we start the combo with gets us four more stacks of triggers in the combo, each one adding a recursive layer. So starting with X green mana, we get 4X + 18 layers in the end. If we start with 100 green mana (easy to generate), we'll get 418 layers, beating the current megacombo. If we have a green mana source that we can iterate at least 64 times (say with Mana Reflection), we'll beat Graham's Number!

    The crucial question of course is whether there is a way to make this go infinite. I don't think so, because to create a stack of triggers, we have to use up a trigger in the next stack below it, so we have the same one-way traffic priciple that keeps the current decks from going infinite. Note that we always save the bouncing of Elvish Spirit Guide until the very last Psychic Battle trigger before the following stack of Bloodbond March triggers; one might wonder if there is profit to be had by bouncing Elvish Spirit Guide before then. I believe the answer is no, because we can't exile Elvish Spirit Guide until we have a Bloodbond March trigger waiting on the stack to bring it back. We could cast the Guide again, but doing that and bouncing it back to hand costs us a green mana, so doing this prematurely will only hurt the combo. We could bounce the Guide prematurely and then exile it, and then wait until the next Bloodbond March trigger comes up, but this has the same effect as just waiting to bounce the Guide until the Bloodbond March trigger is ready. So I don't see any infinite.

    So, is this it? Is this the coveted Ackermann combo that has eluded us until now? Or is the some crucial snafu that I am missing?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Quote from tstorm823 »


    Before I start listing what I've come up with since, I'm going to explain more clearly how the multiple Eyes are helping. Pretend for a moment that we had Opalescence, 2 Eye of the Storms, and 1 Pyromancer Ascension. We have a Healing Salve in the graveyard, 2 Healing Salves in one Eye of the Storm, and 1 Cackling Counterpart in the other, and for the sake of arguement, no counters on Pyromancer Ascension. If we cast an instant or sorcery, both Eyes trigger. We put the one with Cackling Counterpart on bottom and the one with Healing Salves on top. The one on top resolves, exiling the spell we cast, and then casting out a copy of the spell we cast in, healing salve, and healing salve. Both Healing Salves are cast while having the same name as a card in the graveyard, so Pyromancer Ascension triggers the ability to add a counter twice. Then all three spells resolve leaving only the other Eye of the Storm trigger on the stack. When it resolves, it casts Cackling Counterpart, which triggers the copy ability of Pyromancer Ascension since it acquired its 2 counters. So two copies of the spell makes 2 more Ascensions. If we cast another spell and stack the triggers the same, those copies will have 2 counters as well before we get back around to Cackling Counterpart again. The spells cast out of a single Eye of the Storm all happen all at once without chance for Pyromancer Ascension triggers to go on the stack until after they're all cast, so there is no wizardry to get more triggers out of the same Eye. I apologize if that's what it sounded like I was getting at. It's all irrelevant now though, because the only spell we care to have copied a million billion times anymore is Insurrection.


    Ah, okay - that works so long as we have just one Cackling Counterpart. My issue was that we would want to exile a whole bunch of Insurrections to Eye of the Storm, so we would need a whole bunch of activating spells exiled as well. But in your new deck it looks like you need just one, so all is good.



    Play Possibility Storm. I chose Knowledge Pool over Possibility Storm earlier because it's easier to control when just going for 2 cast triggers, but Knowledge Pool gets in the way of the Barrin bounce/cast combo. With an empty library, 2 Possibility Storms will get you what you originally cast by failing to find on the first trigger and then finding the card the second time. Possibility Storm also has no intervening if clause, so if you have a million billion of them, they will attempt to cast a matching card from your library a million billion times. We now have a million billion Possibility Storms. Now we cast the saddest spell in the universe, because it's going to stay on the bottom of the stack waiting for a the end of the game. It doesn't matter what the spell is, so for comedy's sake, I'm going to call is Storm Crow. In response to Storm Crow, Hinder it. All the Possibility Storms Trigger, all the Eye of the Storms trigger, all the Pyromancer Ascensions trigger. Allow one Pyromancer Ascension Trigger to happen, copying Hinder and using it to target the original Hinder. The copy resolves, putting Hinder on the top or bottom of the library (doesn't matter which, same thing). The two relevant Eyes do their thing and raise the number of permanents to some rediculous exponent of their previous state.


    Okay, so the Eye of the Storms want to exile the Hinder, but they can't since the spell is countered and changes zones. I think that's right.


    And then the Possibility Storm triggers start resolving. The first one to resolve looks for an instant and finds Hinder and casts it which retriggers ever Eye and Ascension all over again (because neither of those things care if the spell was cast from hand). This process of casting Hinder and triggering things will repeat once for every single copy of Possibility Storm that existed when Hinder was cast from hand. Eventually it runs out, and on the last copy of the trigger, Hinder gets put onto the bottom of the library and stays there. After one more round of Insurrections, Stor Crow can finally see the light of day as it tries to resolve, so we pay 1 life to draw Hinder and reignite the process with a million billion times as many Possibility Storms. We repeat the whole process a million billion times until we get down to 1 life, and on that cycle of casts, we'll choose to cast 1 copy of Bargain, putting our life back up to astronomical, so we can do the whole thing over again until we've cast Bargain 53 times and the opponent has no cards left to draw.

    And that is the deck so far, 33 unused decks slots remaining.


    Okay, so each casting of Insurrection from Eye of the Storm takes X to 2^^^^^X, each casting of Hinder from our hand causes it to be cast X times from X Possibility Storms, so it takes X to 2^^^^^^X. Each casting of Bargain adds X life and allows us to draw Hinder X times, taking X to 2^^^^^^^X. Finally, we cast Bargain 53 times - the first Bargain is done before we really have a lot of Boon Reflections, but after some inspection, the first Bargain will take us to more than 2^^^^^^^^3, and then each of the remaining 52 Bargains will bump that by 1, so we wind up with between 2^^^^^^^^55 and 2^^^^^^^^56 damage. I guess you could bump that to between 2^^^^^^^^56 and 2^^^^^^^^57 by dropping a Dual Nature and a Doubling Season, so that the first Bargain could be cast after Hinder is first cast.

    I'm a little worried there might be an infinite in there somewhere, but I don't see one. SadisticMystic and plopfill are much better at finding these infinites than I am.

    Oh, and you don't actually need three Parallel Evolutions; when you trigger Pyromancer Ascension's first ability you add a gazillion quest counters thanks to the Doubling Seasons. So two is enough.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Interesting deck... there are a lot of various effects going on, but the dominant effect is Rite of Replication with Xenograft turning all creatures into Golems, including all the Doubling Seasons. Each time a copy of Rite of Replcation targets a Doubling Season with X Doubling Seasons on the battlefield, you add 5*2^X Doubling Season tokens. Each Precursor Golem trigger off Rite of Replication causes all X Doubling Seasons to be targeted, increasing the number of Doubling Seasons to 2^^X; and when you cast Rite of Replication with X Precursor Golems in play, the X triggers create 2^^^X Doubling Seasons, which leads to 2^^^X of all the other creatures so long as you resolve the Rites targeting them after the ones targeting the Doubling Seasons. This is a much bigger effect then all the other ones adding creatures and +1/+1 counters; for example, look at the effect of a Rite of Replication copy on Precursor Golem with X Doubling Seasons as well as Y Primeval Bountys and Z Archangel of Thunes in play. The Rite of Replication adds 2^X Precursor Golems, which causes Y*2^X triggers of Primeval Bounty adding 3 life, which causes YZ*2^X triggers of Archangel of Thune adding +1/+1 counters, and that gets increased by all the Doubling Seasons, for a total of YZ*2^(2X) +1/+1 counters added to each creature. This isn't appreciably greater than the 2^X Precursor Golems we have, certainly less than 2^(# of Precursor Golems), and exponentiation is unnoticeable once we get to notations like 2^^^X. Also, the Clone Legions and Parallel Evolutions do comparatively little; with X Doubling Seasons on the battlefield, each one adds X*2^X Doubling Seasons, and this time we don't get Precursor Golem copies. We do get Pyromancer Ascension copies, but that just takes it to 2^^X, which is still completely dominated by Rite's 2^^^X. Then we have the 20 retrieval spells; each one gets copied X times by Pyromancer Ascensions, allowing us to cast 4X Rite of Replications, achieving 2^^^^X. With 20 of them, we get to about 2^^^^^23 final damage. (Past in Flames does relatively little, since copying it X times doesn't allow us to cast X Rites from the graveyard.) Very nice.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    After reading this thread again, and paying more attention, I have determined that Precursor Golem is stupid. Thus, I have a new idea:

    <snip>

    I have no idea how to calculate this, but it feels insanely large. After just the first Helix+Weave+Rite+Hymn+Unwilling Recruit, factoring in Eye of the Storm, I think we have about 600 million creatures (rough estimate, but accurate-ish), each getting a HUGE pump from the 4 giant copies of Unwilling Recruit, not to mention all of the Cathars' Crusade triggers.

    Does anyone have any idea how to calculate this? I'm just not good enough with big numbers, and Eye of the Storm, though awesome, makes everything difficult.



    Also, sorry for my grammar here. I'm tired, and my keyboard is buggy, so typing is hard. It's also very possible that my list is all screwed up, because it took a long time to trim down to 60, and I might have done something stupid.


    The list looks okay, but you won't be able to take advantage of having four Eye of the Storms like you want to. Each card you exile has to be exiled to one of the Eye of the Storms, and only that Eye of the Storm will copy the exiled card when you cast another instant or sorcery. So each exiled card will be copied once no matter how many Eye of the Storms you have.

    Also, you can't use Time Reversal to do everything again, because Time Reversal doesn't get back the cards that you have exiled to Eye of the Storm. Perhaps you can cast the Time Reversals first, then cast Eye of the Storm to finish off.

    Rite of Replication does more than you think; when you cast Rite, each Precursor Golem trigger copies the spell for each Golem, multiplying the number of Precursor Golems by 2 (unkicked) or 6 (kicked). This happens for each Precursor Golem, so X Precursor Golems becomes X*2^X or X*6^X Precursor Golems. (X*257^X or X*1281^X with the Doubling Seasons and Parallel Lives). Retraction Helix could potentially do something similar, except the new vanilla Golems that get created won't have haste, and won't get haste until Unwilling Recruit is cast, which is too infrequent. So you could use a card that continuously gives creatures haste so that Retraction Helix can exponentiate with the help of Mirrorweave.

    As it is, Rite of Replication is doing all the heavy lifting here, so the goal is to cast it as many times as possible. The four Time Reversals get us 16 castings of Rite of Replication; for Eye of the Storm, it is best to cast the four Rites first, then cast the other 16 instant/sorceries you listed (You can squeeze more in the deck, but I won't worry about that yet), getting another 74 castings. So we get 90 castings of Rite of Replication. At the start, the Monastery Mentors (it's best to copy Monastery Mentor with our copy cards, since we're going to Mirrorweave them to Precursor Golems later anyway) wind up adding about 2500 creatures, then alternating Unwilling Recruits and Rectraction Helixes triple that number four times for about 200,000 creatures, which get Mirrorweaved into 200,000 Precursor Golems, or more than 2^^4 Precursor Golems. That gets bumped 90 times, so the final damage is between 2^^94 and 2^^95.

    Quote from tstorm823 »

    With regards to getting the Pyromancer Ascensions active before casting the spells from Eye of the Storm, I have a solution for that. One thing we've been ignoring is that we don't have 1 Eye of the Storm, we have 30 * 2^(2^^^5) copies of it. In almost any other case, copies of Eye of the Storm are useless because they all trigger off of each card cast, they all resolve the trigger, and only one of them get's to exile the spell, so that the end result is that no matter how many copies there are of Eye of the Storm, you cast every spell exiled by any Eye of the storm exactly once. But here it matters, because we care about the order, so if we put the 2 copies of whatever spell is in the graveyard for Ascension activating into one Eye and then put our mighty pile of spells into another while always resolving the first eye's trigger first, the last patch of ascensions will always be active for the bulk of what we care about.


    I don't think that quite works. It's true that the first Eye will activate the Pyromancer Ascensions when it resolves, allowing the first Radiate in the second Eye to take advantage of it. But if the second Eye has more than one Radiate or copy spell, we need to activate the new Ascensions in between each pair. So the castings have to go Radiate, activating spell, Radiate, activating spell, ... . I don't see how the extra Eye helps us do that.


    Recap of used deck slots. Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Opalescence, 4 Doubling Season, 4 Dual Nature, Pyromancer Ascension, Eye of the Storm, Vedalken Orrery, Tradewind Rider, Quicksilver Gargantuan, Barrin, Master Wizard, Harabaz Druid, 3 of something to activate Acensions, Knowledge Pool, Rite of Replication, Insurrection, Supplant Form, and 4 Radiate. That's 31 cards leaving almost half of the deck open, more than half since those 3 cards to activate Ascension can definitely be made highly impactful. And if the Knowledge Pool and Eye triggers are used optimally, I'm pretty sure all 4 Radiates can be cast for every cast trigger, including their own, while having every existing Ascension activated every time. If we try to maximize Radiates, we can have 38 casts of it once they're all in the eye, with 30 instants or sorceries left which will trigger the eye 60 times, leading to a total of 278 casts of radiate (all copied a million billion times) without counting any fork effects.


    Okay - each casting of Radiate still takes X activated Pyromancer Ascensions to 2^^^X Doubling Seasons. But your new combos are more powerful. Each bouncing of {c}Quicksilver Gargantuan[/c] triggers X Dual Natures, and each trigger takes X Doubling Seasons to 2^X Doubling Seasons, so we wind up with 2^^X Doubling Seasons as well as Dual Natures and any other creature we're using. So each copy of Supplant Form applies X to 2^^X; so does each activation of Tradewind Rider, so Insurrection untaps X Tradwind Riders and takes X Doubling Seasons to 2^^^X Doubling Seasons. Best of all, though, is the Barrin, Master Wizard combo. Each two mana applies X to 2^^X, so each tapping of Harabaz Druid gets lots of mana and takes X to 2^^^X, and each copy of Insurrection untaps lots of Harabaz Druids and takes X to 2^^^^X. So with X Pyromancer Ascensions, a casting of Insurrection will generate 2^^^^^X Doubling Seasons. So the goal now is to cast Insurrection, activating spell, Insurrection, activating spell, etc. as many times as possible, with Radiate becoming completely insignificant at this point. If say you can cast 278 Insurrections, that will get you a final damage of about 2^^^^^^281.

    Now we're getting to some serious numbers!
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    You don't actually need another spell, since Precursor Golem creates two Golem tokens. However, while Sundering Growth is more powerful, the deck might be better served with Heat Shimmer or Twinflame, since those would allow Burst of Speed to be removed.

    Hmm, I would to post the contents of a spreadsheet, but it didn't work. Anyone know how?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    You actually get more than 240 Golems after the second Rite of Replication. Remember, you get 6 triggers of Precursor Golem when you cast the Rite, and when each trigger resolves, it copies Rite of Replication for each Golem currently on the battlefield, not just the ones on the battlefield when you cast the Rite. I count 384 Precursor Golems and 3650 vanilla Golems, 4034 total.

    It's actually better to cast unkicked Rite of Replications than kicked ones when you use Spellweaver Helix. Even though kicked Rites are putatively more powerful, casting N unkicked Rites will result in between 2^^(N+3) and 2^^(N+4) Golems, and the same result will be true if you cast kicked Rites. So you can either cast 576 kicked Rites and get between 2^^579 and 2^^580 Golems, or cast 2016 unkicked Rites and get between 2^^2019 and 2^^2020 Golems.

    Each tapping of an Isochron Scepter will allow you to cast X Rites, resulting in 2^^X Golems. I don't see why we should save the fourth Isochron Scepter for later, so I will assume it is activated along with the first three. Each Blinkmoth Infusion, Turnabout, and Wild Ricochet will allow another four tappings of an Isochron Scepter, and Toils of Night and Day will allow two more. Reality Spasm is problematic; casting it with Omniscience is useless, since X will be defined to be 0. So we need blue mana, and there currently is no source for that. So I count 56 additional tappings of Isochron Scepter from our untapping spells. When we use Cranial Archive to reshuffle and redraw everything, we do get a blue mana source, namely Black Lotus, which we can copy a couple of times to cast all four Reality Spasms. So we get 72 untappings on the following go-arounds. When we are down to say one Cranial Archive and two Phyrexian metamorphs, we need to use one of the Metamorphs to copy Cranial Archive, so we can make one copy of Black Lotus, allowing for three Reality Spasms. Then for the last three go-arounds we have just the one Black Lotus for one Reality Spasm. All told I count 1388 tappings of Isochron Scepter. Since we start with 2016 Rites, which is between 2^^^2 and 2^^^3, we wind up with a final damage of between 2^^^1390 and 2^^^1391.

    I'm glad you had fun with this challenge!
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Here's my second take:

    1. Play Lotus, Show and Tell, put Omniscience into play, cast Enter the Infinite, draw your deck, put back Unwilling Recruit.
    2. Cast Inner Fire for 54 red mana.
    3. Play Rite of Replication with kicker four times. Regrowth it and continue until you run out of mana.
    4. Cast Battle Hymn for a bunch of mana. Continue casting Regrowths into Rites.
    5. Use either Praetor's Counsel, Feldon's Cane, Cranial Archive, or a clone on Cane or Archive to reset and do it again. (With Archive, you magically draw Enter the Infinite and start again. With Cane, you do cast Enter, then activate Cane in response).
    6. Keep resetting until you're out of cards.
    7. Flashback Mystic Retrival on Rite of Replication, flash it back with blue mana made by recycling Lotus over and over.
    8. Cast Unwilling Recruit for all the mana you have left.
    9. Attack for lots.


    Nice improvement. You cast 40 Rites of Replication, and repeat that process 13 times, for 520 Rites, then add four more at the end by flashbacking Mystic Retrieval for 524. Final damage between 2^^526 and 2^^527.

    Quote from Mistermind »
    Two words. Mana Clash.


    The rules require that there must be a finite maximum damage achievable by the deck. Mana Clash has no maximum, so is disallowed.

    Quote from tstorm823 »
    I think there's promise in the brute force Radiate method, and I can somewhat formulate a procedure, but I can't even attempt to process the numbers.

    <snip>

    I have no idea how this is comparing to the "mega combo," because indescribably large is hard to compare to indescribably large, but I'm pretty sure we've outstripped modern computers' ability to process these numbers either way. But without knowing the real impact of what I'm suggesting, it's hard to guess what would be the best options other than the most obvious "20 Fork effects targetting Radiate" option. All I know is that the last spell I want to resolve after spamming instants for indescribably multiplied power is Mirrorweave targetting Gratuitous Violence so that the final combat damage is whatever unbelievable amount of power has been made multiplied by 2^(whatever unbelievable amount of creatures we made).


    Your 2^^120 figure is correct, however you can do better by alternating the casting of Dual Nature and Doubling Season:

    1. Cast Dual Nature, getting a token copy.
    2. Cast Doubling Season, get 10 tken copies for 11 total.
    3. Cast Dual Nature, getting 2050 total.
    4. Cast Doubling Season, getting more than 2^^2050 total.
    5. Cast Dual Nature, getting more than 2^^2051.
    6. Cast Doubling Season, getting more than 2^^2^^2051.
    7. Cast Dual Nature, getting more than 2^^2^^2051.
    8. Cast Doubling Season, getting more than 2^^2^^2^^2051, or between 2^^^5 and 2^^^6.

    Most of the other cards you use don't effect the number enough to pass 2^^^6. For example, take Cathars' Crusade. Casting Cathars' Crusade gets you more than 2^^^5 copies of it, each one adding more than 2^^^5 +1/+1 counters to more than 2^^^5 creatures. So the total power increases by about X^3, where X is the number of Cathars' Crusades. That may sound a lot bigger than X when X is very large, but at this scale, the difference is unnoticeable. For example, if X = 2^2^Y, then X^3 < 2^2^(Y+2), so even for a relatively small number like X = 2^^10, cubing scarcely makes a difference, much less 2^^^5. Similarly for Hamletback Goliath, Gratuitous Violence, Fungal Sprouting, Moonveil Dragon, and Mirrorweave.

    The real power comes from the Radiates. Each copy of Rite of Replication takes X Doubling Seasons to 2^X. Each copy of Radiate copies Rite of Replication for each Doubling Season on the battlefield, taking X Doubling Seasons to 2^^X Doubling Seasons. Each time you cast Radiate with X Pyromancer Ascensions with quest counters on them, you copy Radiate X times, so you generate 2^^^X Doubling Seasons. You also generate 2^^^X Pyromancer Ascensions, which would allow you to get 2^^^2^^^X Doubling Seasons on the next cast, except for the fact that the new Pyromancer Ascensions won't have quest counters on them. Fortunately, we can exile Rites of Replication to Eye of the Storm, and alternate the castings of Rite of Replication with Radiate; unfortunately, we can only exile three Rites (one is in the graveyard), so one of the Radiates won't be able to be used to full power. The best solution seems to me to have at least two copies of another spell (say Cackling Counterpart) and put one in the graveyard, and exile the other to Eye of the Storm, so we have another spell that can refresh the Pyromancer Ascensions.

    So with that, we apply the function X -> 2^^^X for each casting of Radiate, so we want to maximize the number of castings. To this end, we want to exile the Radiates as soon as possible, so that they can be copied as many times as possible by the following instants/sorceries. Also, the most obvious "20 Fork effects targetting Radiate" option really does seem like the best option, although one Radiate will be "wasted" as it will have to remain on the stack for the Fork spells to copy it. Also, you do still need to alternate castings of Radiate or a spell copying it with a spell that refreshes the Pyromancer Ascensions. I believe that when you cast an exiled instant or sorcery via Knowledge Pool, it will get exiled to Eye of the Storm, so that indeed is a good way to double the number of castings. Overall, it shouldn't be too hard to generate over 500 castings of Radiate or a copy spell, so as long as we have a haste spell, we can generate about 2^^^^500 damage. This would be by far the most damage among entrants in this thread, but is still very far from the megacombo, which requires over 400 Knuth arrows to express.

    One last thing: If you cast a kicked Rite of Replication on a Hamletback Goliath with Doubling Season on the battlefield, you can get much more than 6 million power! The 10 Hamletback Goliaths coming into play generate 100 triggers, so as long as you order the triggers intelligently so that each one piggybacks off the previous one, say:

    1. HG#1 adds 12 +1/+1 counters to HG#2, increasing its power to 18
    2. HG#2 adds 36 +1/+1 counters to HG#3, increasing its power to 42
    3. HG#3 adds 84 +1/+1 counters to HG#2, increasing its power to 102

    and you continue this 87 more times, forming a Hamiltonian circuit among the 10 token creatures. Each trigger will more than double the power of the largest creature, so after 87 more triggers the largest token creature will have more than 102 * 2^87 power. Finally, we resolve the 10 triggers on the original Hamletback Goliath, increasing it to more than 102 * 2^89 ~ 6.3 * 10^28 power.

    That's actually very good for a three card combo. Cheers!
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    You have just 58 cards, so I'll assume you have 4 Chancellor of the Forges.

    Okay, after the eight Monastery Mentors are on the board, each noncreature spell adds eight new creatures, and with four Cathar's Crusades on the board, each noncreature spell adds 32 +1/+1 counters to each creature on the board (33 if the creature has prowess). You cast 22 noncreature spells before we get to Empty the Warrens, for 176 new token creatures in addition to the 9 nontoken ones and three Goblin tokens, for 188 total. For Empty the Warrens, the storm count starts at 35, leading to 150 copies of Empty the Warrens and 300 Goblin tokens, plus 32 Monk tokens for 520 total creatures. Each Deploy to the Front adds 8 tokens and then doubles the number of creatures, so four iterations of that results in 8560 creatures. Each Chancellor of the Forge adds one creature and then doubles the number of creatures, so after four iterations we have 136,990 creatures. A Craterhoof Behomoths makes it 136,991. (It's best to alternate Craterhoof Behomoths and Fungal Sproutings.)

    Next, we have to calculate the greatest power among creatures we control for Fungal Sprouting. The greatest power belongs one of the intial Monastery Mentors, which start at 2/2, and then the four Cathars' Crusades add 9,17,25, and 33 for 86 power. We cast another 26 noncreature spells, activating Prowesss 26 times for 112 power. Then, we add another 136,948 creatures, each one adding 4 power, resulting in 547,904 power. Finally, the Craterhoof Behemoths increases that to 684,895.

    So when we cast the first Fungal Sprouting, we add 684,895 creatures, increasing the greatest power to 3,424,475, then the second Craterhoof Behometh adds 821,887 for 4,246,362. Second Fungal Sprouting adds 4,246,362 creatures: 5,068,250 creatures, 26,300,060 max power. Third Fungal Sporuting adds 25,300,060 creatures: 30,368,311 creatures, 161,868,611 max power. Finally the Fourth Fungal Sprouting adds 161,868,611 creatures for 192,236,922 creatures and 809,343,055 max power. Flame-Kin Zealot gives all the creatures haste, then Tears of Rage increases the max power to 1,578,290,751. So an upper bound for the amount of damage is 192,236,923 * 1,578,290,751 = 3.034 * 10^17.

    Not bad, but less than the other entrants so far.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    The opponent is assumed to have a deck of 60 Islands.

    No, no sideboard. (Although actually, I did address the challenge where a 15 card sideboard was allowed, and I was able to obtain more than 500 Knuth arrows. But for the main challenge, no sideboard.)
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos

    Did you account for Overblaze?


    Hmm, Each Overblaze gets copied XY times where X is the number of Golems and Y is the number of Precursor Golem. So the total damage gets multiplied by 2^(10XY). This takes the damage to between 2^^207 and 2^^208.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Quote from eatercheese »
    I am surprised that Radiate hasn't shown up in the lists posted here. I didn't exactly do an exhaustive search but having a modest number of animated doubling season in play (say 20) would result in an absolutely absurd number of doubling seasons if you were to cast a (kicked) rite of replication and then radiate it. Since each copy would resolve independently this alone would generate in excess 2^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^20 (that's under representing it) in play. Making the follow up radiated rite of replication generate... well a number I'm not even able to comprehend. Effectively each radiated copy spell would create a nested exponential for as many permanents as there are in play. I mean really, even after two resolutions of rite->radiate you are looking at numbers that make the http://www.soniccenter.org/sm/mtg/megacombo.html link look tiny.


    You don't get near 2^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^20. 2^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^20 is not a nested exponential of 20 exponents; that's 2^^20. In general

    2^^X is an exponential tower of X 2's (2^2^2...^2),
    2^^^X is 2^^2^^2...^^2 with X 2's,
    2^^^^X is 2^^^2^^^2...^^^2 with X 2's

    and so on. Each Radiate takes X Doubling Seasons to 2^^X Doubling Seasons, so N Radiates would produce about 2^^^N Doubling Seasons in the end - nowhere near the numbers in the megacombo.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Okay, here's the math:

    After the first Rite of Replication, there will be 6 Precursor Golems and 22 vanilla Golems. After the second Rite, there will be 279,936 Precursor Golems and about 4 million Golems total. Both numbers are between 2^^4 = 65,536 and 2^^5, which is more than 10^19728. Each additional Rite will exponentiate the number of Golems, so after the third Rite there will be between 2^^5 and 2^^6, and the fourth there will be between 2^^6 and 2^^7, and so on. The retrieval spells allow you to cast Rite of Replication 40 times, then the Praetor's Counsels repeat this four times, for 200 Rites. Finally we can flashback 4 Mystic Retrievals for 204 Rites, and between 2^^206 and 2^^207 Golems in the end.

    Then there is the effect of the other cards; unfortunately, all of them combined are not enough to reach 2^^207. For example, Might of the Masses adds (X-1)Y to the power of each Golem (except one), where Y is the number of Precursor Golems and X is the total number of Golems, so the total power becomes X((X-1)Y+3) < X^3. Now X^3 sounds a lot bigger than X, but it has basically zero effect on a large power tower. For example, if X = 2^2^1000, X^3 = (2^2^1000)^3 = 2^(2^1000 * 3) < 2^2^1002. In our case we have X = 2^2^Z where Z is itself a large power tower, and we increase that to less than 2^2^(Z+2), and adding two to Z is not noticeable at all. All the other cards do less the cubing as well, so the final damage will be between 2^^206 and 2^^207.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    That actually goes infinite. Say we have a Praetor's Counsel in the exile zone, and another Praetor's Counsel, Pull From Eternity, and Rite of Replication in our hand. Cast the Rite of Replication on a Golem, cast Pull From Eternity to put the exiled Praetor's Counsel in the graveyard, and cast the Praetor's Counsel in our hand to return all three cards in the graveyard to our hand. Our position is reset, except that there are now a lot more Golems on the board, and we can repeat this as long as we want to.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Thanks for vetting the deck! The reason Rousing of Souls does not go infinite is that it not only causes us to draw a card, but the opponent draws a card as well. Thus, we can only cast Rousing of Souls a total of 53 times before the next casting ends the game, and with it our opportunity to deal damage. Otherwise, yes, a card-drawing card that could be retrieved by Mnemonic Wall would certainly go infinite.
    Posted in: Magic General
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