MTG Salvation

You're welcome FortyTwo! It's always great to have another person join in.

Thanks, tstorm823. So I suppose we can just continue in the forum that replaces this one. (unless people know of another forum that they would like to move to?)


There seems to be a problem with using Iname as One as the creature that fetches Apothecary Geist. It seems to be okay in the megastage transition, since although we can keep bouncing Iname as One, we can only bring back Apothecary Geist once, and then it is stuck on the battlefield. But in the gigastage transition, we also remove Apothecary Geist from the battlefield, so we can bring it back with Iname as One bouncings there as well. So we can gain three life in the gigastage transition, which is no good.

I suppose we just go back to the old way of doing things, bringing Apothecary Geist back when something dies. Iname, Life Aspect should work. Now though we need a way to return it after it gets destroyed. We can either add another Iname, Life Aspect, or add something like Goryo's Vengeance to bring it back.

So we have:



We lose Consecrated Sphinx, and go down to about F_{w^4 + w6 + 3}(50).

Welcome to the challenge, Vermorax!

If you have gotten to 2^^^^^X you probably more or less understand layers. A combo at layer N is a combo that takes X to about 2 -> X -> N. So a combo at layer 1 is a combo that exponentiates, and a combo at layer N+1 with input X is a combo that repeats a combo at layer N, X times.

A stage combo is a combo that takes an input of X and builds a combo with X layers. This may not sound like all that much at first, but the numbers get really big when we start repeating the stage combo, and then adding layers and further stages to it. For example, if we execute a stage combo with input 10, we'll get a number like 10 -> 10 -> 10, and if we execute it again we'll get a number like 10 -> 10 -> (10 -> 10 -> 10), and already we have a number that is completely out of reach with layer decks.

Feel free to share your creation if you so desire! In the other thread though, this thread is for Standard decks.

Keep in mind that it won't be profitable to add layers below the stage. We need to add layers above the stage to increase our estimate. Of course, adding a stage below a stage would be a vast improvement.

Thanks for the heads up Stakfish! I was totally oblivious.

Setting up a personal forum would be great, but I like the idea of having this discussion where it would could be possibly read by many people, so that there is the potential of attracting new blood to the challenge. What is the next biggest MtG forum? The only other one I've looked at is Tapped Out.

Also, I think it is a good idea to share contact information with each other.

(I would say that FortyTwo deserves the majority of the credit for the current stage - while I did suggest the idea of using Cleansing Nova for our two alternating spells, he is the one who worked out the intricacies of the combo.)


@Patashu0: Unbound Flourishing looks interesting, although I don't see immediately how it would help with our current deck. Stakfish's version is in need of a spell copier that would copy something that could restore our progress, while not being able to copy something that we need to be countered. But, something that copies X spells doesn't seem to be what we need, since in our gigastage we can only cast instant/sorceries without paying for their mana cost.

Quote from J_kibbs »

Why would we want to save the mana? Our next action after leaving the stage will be to rebuild the stage again with blessing/ionize which is directly related to storm count. Why on earth would we want not want to process the stage fully to get our storm up as high as possible before doing anything else?

Indeed, we do not want to save any white mana before the next Gaea's Blessing is cast, we want to restart the stage as many times as possible to increase our TYS count as much as possible. We might have maybe one white mana left over because we can't do anything with it, but no more then that.

Also I don’t get why the smaller stage layers inside our initial stage are any less potent. If anything they will be being built with higher storm counts not lower. Also I’m pretty sure the math(btw a quick note, this whole stage building process feels much more akin to computer programming than math, which I never got along too well with coding etc)/processes of the inner(non draw built stages) works identically to the higher ones. If in our 10 layer stage if the layers we can build from 11-55 aren’t layers why are 1-10? The process to make them is identical so I’m curious what’s the difference. That building process is kinda what defines a stage for you guys so I would think it would just make sense that all layers we build in this manner would be full layers of growth.

It's not that any of the later stages don't give you real layers. It's that processing a 10-layer stage followed by a 9-layer stage doesn't give you 19 layers. This is due to how layers are defined, how strong they are. In particular, an N+1 layer combo with input X means repeating an N layer combo X times, starting with X. So for example, an 11 layer combo starting with input 100 would be processing a 10-layer combo, followed by a 10-layer combo, followed by a 10-layer combo... repeat that 100 times. So that is obviously stronger than our process of a 10-layer stage followed by a 9-layer stage followed by an 8 layer stage etc. So our whole process is stronger than 10 layers alone, but weaker than 11 layers alone. Therefore, it would be very misleading to call this "55 layers" - that should be reserved for a combo which processes 55 layers, which is much stronger.

Well no - we process a 10 layer stage, taking X to around 3 -> X -> 10; then we process a 9 layer stage, taking the TYS count to 3 -> (3 -> X -> 10) -> 9; then an 8 layer stage, taking the TYS count to 3 -> (3 -> X -> (3 -> X -> 10) -> 9) -> 8, and so on. By the end, the number will be less than 3 -> X -> 11 and much less than 3 -> X -> 55. More generally, you don't add layer numbers together if you process them one after another; if you process an X layer stage followed by a Y layer stage, the result will be a little better than max(X,Y) layers rather than X+Y layers.

But yes, it doesn't change our estimate.

Actually, 10 draws would not give us 55 layers in our stage, for the same reason that setting up and resolving a 2 layer combo, and repeating the process 100 times, would not result in 200 layers; it would actually be a third layer with an input of 100, since that is how layers are defined. After the 10 layer stage, we can resolve a 9 layer stage, then an 8 layer stage, and so on, but all those additional stages are weaker than one more 10 layer stage, and so the whole thing is weaker than processing a 10 layer stage twice, which is equivalent to a 11 layer stage with an input of 2. So the additional smaller stages do not actually add that much.

What makes stages so powerful is that we can repeatedly loop them, and have the result of one be the input of the next. So, even if the first Gaea's Blessing is just cast with an input of 10, the 10 layer stage results in a TYS count of approximately 10 -> 10 -> 10, so we get 10 -> 10 -> 10 copies of Gaea's Blessing the next time we cast it, which allows us to up the TYS count to 10 -> 10 -> (10 -> 10 -> 10), then 10 -> 10 -> (10 -> 10 -> (10 -> 10 -> 10)), and so on. So we very quickly go far beyond what we can produce in a deck composed of distinct layers.

We did think originally about having two different spells, with one destroying creatures and one destroying artifacts, like Deafening Clarion and Rampage of the Clans. Let's say we tried to use those cards, with white mana being the scarce resource, to be created using Mox Amber say. The problem is that our decks could recycle the Mox Amber by resolving a Deafening Clarion and a Rampage of the Clans in either order. So if we cast Deafening Clarion and get a bunch of copies, using one white mana, then cast a Rampage of the Clans, we could then resolve all the Rampage of the Clans, and then one Deafening Clarion to recylce the Mox Amber and create a white mana. We could the repeat the process, resolving the Ramapage of the Clans copies and another Deafening Clarion copy to create another white mana. We could keep doing this for as long as we had Deafening Clarion copies. So in the end we had a white mana for each Deafening Clarion in our original stack, whereas we only paid one white mana to start the combo.

One way to fix this would be to have both spells require the same amount of the same scarce color. It so happened that Cleansing Nova was able to fulfill the requirements for both spells, so we always needed to spend two white mana to recast our sorcery. But, this is not necessarily the only way we could make a stage in Standard. Stakfish's stage deck for the last version of Standard had a different way of constructing a stage, using the enter-the-battlefield triggers of Raging Swordtooth and Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep as the two components of our alternating groups. (He used Panharmonicon to be able to trigger many times at once.) The linked article is a good read for how to go about constructing a stage; the recipe includes locking and unlocking a state (in his deck, the state was whether or not the ability of Muldrotha, the Gravetide had been used) to keep things from going infinite. At first we started with Muldrotha, but when we couldn't get that to work we switched to using two instants/sorceries instead.

Okay, we have to be clear about what we mean here. If we have 10 draws, we can turn that into 10 stage layers, or 10 white mana, or 5 stage layers and 5 white mana. But the whole point of the white mana is to build stage layers, so in any case we will wind up with 10 stage layers. Now, in the process of resolving our stage, some of the layers will gradually get resolved, and as we do so we will build up white mana, as each time we resolve both a Wrath Nova and a Purity Nova we will be able to gain a white mana from casting Excavation Elephant and retrieving the lockets. But that's okay, because the white mana that we gain is exactly what we need to be able to rebuild back up to our maximum number of stages anyway. So we have 10 stage layers, and also some required white mana to process the stage, depending where we are in the process. (Just before we cast the last Cleansing Nova we will have 3 white mana, then after we cast the CN we will have one white mana, then after casting Excavation Elephant we will go down to zero white mana, then tapping the lockets will take us back to two white mana, etc.) When we resolve down that top layer, we will also resolve down the next couple of CN's from the next layer down, and that will allow us to get one white mana ahead. So we will have 9 stage layers, and one more white mana then we had at an equivalent position at 10 stage layers. This allows us to cast a Cleansing Nova to take us back to 10 stage layers and no extra white mana. We then resolve down the top layer and a couple more CN's again to get us to 9 stage layers and 1 extra white mana again, and then cast CN to take us back to 10 stage layers and no extra white mana again. Eventually, the second layer from the top will get completely exhausted, so we will have to dip into the top CN's in the third layer from the top, and now we are down to 8 stage layers, but 2 extra white mana. Then we will cast a CN, taking us back to 9 stage layers and 1 extra white mana, and then another CN, taking us to 10 stage layers and no extra white mana again. So we keep doing this process. And as it goes we will see 7 stage layers and 3 extra white mana, 6 stage layers and 4 extra white mana, and so on. Finally we will keep dipping into the final layer at the bottom, and we will have 1 layer and 9 extra white mana. Once this bottom layer is exhausated, we won't get an extra white mana, since that requires resolving a couple of CN's from the next layer down, and there is no layer further down at this point. So we will wind up with an empty stack and 9 extra white mana. From here we can build up the stack to 9 stage layers, and repeat the process but with one fewer layer. Then 8 stage layers, and so on.

So 3 is not true if you mean build a stage AND have one white mana while that extra stage is still on the stack. But it is true if you mean that after we process the stage, we will get one mana from it.

Each card draw can get us a white mana or build a stage layer, but not both. We can spend white mana to build layers, or we can resolve layers to get white mana back. So it's the give and take between the two that facilitates the stage.

Spending 4 white mana sacrifice a locket and build another layer is not helpful, since in the normal operation of the stage we would be using that 4 white mana to build several layers instead.

Yeah, it's important to realize that we can't just "loop whatever actions we did to gain the white mana". Each layer in our stage requires one white mana or one card draw. So, if we have X white mana and Y card draws, we can get about X+Y layers in our stage. Now, as we resolve the stage, we build up white mana as our alternating groups disappear. That white mana is exactly enough to recreate the alternating groups that we lost, so we build up back to the same number of layers each time.

Now, we could pay four mana to sacrifice a locket to draw a Cleansing Nova, but this is just a waste of white mana. So we could rebuild some alternating groups, but not as many as we resolved to get the white mana in the first place, so we would keep losing alternating groups. So this will definiitely not go infinite.

It looks like you have some fundamental misunderstanding, but I'm not sure what it is.

J_kibbs, you keep talking about how getting to four white mana goes infinite, presumably by sacrificing a locket for four mana to get a card draw, but you haven't yet answered FortyTwo's question on how it is in any way better to sacrifice a locket to draw a Cleansing Nova then cast it for free, than to just pay two white mana to cast Cleansing Nova from the graveyard.

Scenario 1:

Cleansing Nova is at the top of the library, and a locket is on the battlefield untapped. We tap the locket for one white mana, and spend two mana to cast Cleansing Nova from the library.

Net mana change: -1 white mana

Scenario 2:

Cleansing Nova is at the top of the library, and a locket is on the battlefield untapped. We spend for white mana and sacrifice the locket to draw Cleansing Nova, and then cast it for free.

Net mana change: -4 white mana

Now, how in the world can scenario 2 lead to an infinite loop, if scenario 1 doesn't?

I don't know what you mean by "stages inside of stages". A stage here is a sequence of alternating groups of Wrath Novas and Purify Novas. If we had a stage inside a stage, it would just form one bigger stage. So, do you mean it is possible to extend the stage infinitely? You need to describe how that happens in more detail.

I don't understand the concept that having more than four white mana will go infinite. Each Cleansing Nova costs two white mana to cast, but you get one back from the lockets. So four white mana will get you three alternating groups, I think. Four white mana and a draw would get us four alternating groups. So yeah, if we could generate four white mana for free, then we would go infinite. But we can't generate four white mana for free. We have to resolve down three alternating groups, plus a couple of Cleansing Novas from the next alternating group down, to gain the white mana we need to build back up three alternating groups. So we can only build back up as much as we resolved down, and doing so takes away Cleansing Novas from the next group down, so it can't go infinite.

@FortyTwo: Flood of Recollection plus Bolt Bend is interesting, but I don't think it helps. I assume the idea is to cast Flood of Recollection and counter it with Ionize, and then use all of the copies to retrieve Gaea's Blessing, and then cast Gaea's Blessing to draw a bunch of Cleansing Novas. The problem is, then Gaea's Blessing will be on the stack during stage resolution, and we won't be able to use it to reshuffle the deck. If we add another Gaea's Blessing or another card that can reshuffle the deck, then we can cast Gaea's Blessing to draw a lot of cards while still being able to reshuffle the deck, so that goes infinite.

@J_kibbs: Okay, I will try to explain a small example. Not now though.

@FortyTwo: As for where else we can look for further improvements, I would imagine there are probably more ways to get further layers. But I don't have a good sense of where is best to look. I don't see any obvious resources that are still unused; we've used all our colors of mana, and we don't have anything in Standard that requires colorless. Life has been used. Opponent life and library is hard to make use of. There is always the possiblity of getting more layers in our transitions; for example, we tried pretty hard to get another layer in the red mana to life transition, but ultimately we couldn't make it work. Teysa Karlov does seem like a potential avenue for an extra layer, but it's hard due to the fact that we have Cleansing Nova further down. Same with Naban, Dean of Iteration. Looking at some of our past layer decks, we got many layers using creatures, or from instants/sorceries that could fetch other spells from the graveyard/library. But, our current stage already gets us access to creatures and instants/sorceries. There is the possibility of remaking the stage to leave more room later on, but we need a good idea for me to get particularly enthusiastic about that.

We could be more ambitious and look for a further stage. We have already thought somewhat about adding a Angrath's Rampage stage; I suppose there is still a possibility it could work. Otherwise, we have to think more outside the box. All I really know is that at least one of our alternating groups has to be an instant/sorcery to make use of Thousand-Year Storm, or a triggered ability from many creatures created by Quasiduplicate or Replicate.

As for Sanctum of the Sun, I agree that it is better to have two Mountains instead.


@J_kibbs: Unfortunately, I don't really follow what you are saying, such as the part about sub levels. So I can't say for sure whether you are getting it or not.

Oh that sounds intriguing!

Let's start with the Cleansing Nova combo first. As we established, we have to cast Tragic Poet and Quasiduplicate prior to resolving a Purify Nova. After the Purify Nova, we can cast Golgari Findbroker, and return either Mox Amber or the Millstone. Let's return the Millstone, since that is what gets us the reshuffle so that we can cast Quasiduplicate. So we reshuffle, and cast Quasiduplicate to fetch the Mox Amber. So we are out of artifact retrieval after one Mox Amber. So that looks good so far.

Hmm, but what if we reshuffle, and then resolve the next Purify Nova? That puts Millstone back in the graveyard. So we can now cast Quasiduplicate, and bring back both Mox Amber and Millstone. We can tap the Mox Amber for a white mana, and then tap the Millstone to reshuffle. It looks like we can keep reshuffling and refetching this way. Too bad.