A thought that doesn't seem to go anywhere, but I figured I would mention it: We can have one Arcbond, along with Comeuppance, and then the computation will stop when the one Arcbonded creature dies, and to start up again we need to Arcbond another creature. Another way to do it is to have two Arcbonded creatures, and then the Arcbonds will alternate between the two, with no choice ever occurring, until one of them dies. Then again we need another Arcbond to start things up again.
As far as I can tell there's no real advantage to one over the other, other than the latter needing two Arcbonds to start and only one to restart. But, maybe someone will have an idea using this.
Keeping the Arcbond creature around does seem like a promising idea. Leonin Relic-Warder does look like it goes infinite by being able to bring Vedalken Orrery back to the battlefield, allowing us to plop down a creature or whatever. Some cards like Silkwrap are more restrictive on what cards they can exile, but none of the ones I saw had creature types, so they would all die early.
So, currently it looks like we don't have a way to do computation without any infinites. The Churchill Turing machine setup is maybe something to look at, if we're willing to look at a multiturn version of the challenge. Of course, we should look for the possibility of doing computations first turn - the Waterfall model is still looks like a simple way to achieve Turing completeness, even if we don't have an implementation as of right now.
Until we find something, I may look at the traditional megastage version of the deck. We had a deck that was supposed to achieve F_{w^3 + w13 + 4}(X), but of course it had Mimic Vat. I think it had Worldpurge as well, which maybe doesn't work with Soul Foundry? But, I think we should be able to get at least to around that area with our various new ideas.
does anyone have any idea how to fix this? One way of course would be to prove the flooding waterfall model Turing complete. Or, if we failed at that, we could try to build big machines using the flooding waterfall model anyway.
any other ways to do computation? There’s the original Churchill UTM, I imagine that’s just plain harder to keep from going infinite, but I don’t know if we’ve investigated it thoroughly.
We don't have access to the 17th card before we cast SSA, but we can have access before we perform the full combo.
Edit: Eh, I guess your point about Worldfire applies here as well. After we resolve the 9th II, SSA will be in our hand, so we have to cast it before any WOrldfires get resolved and it gets put into exile.
So, if we the most SSA full combos we can perform is two, the question is how many treasure tokens we can make with the first SSA. We can make use of the two other cards we draw on the 8th and 9th II's before we full combo, so we can actually get 5 cards in addition to the 11 creatures we need to draw. (Correct me if I am wrong.) We can do a megacombo with "one red mana" (which could just be casting Abandon the Post from hand) and 20 life, that seems like the most that we can get. So that should be like a hyperstage with around 20 stages, maybe a bit less? So maybe around BB_{w^2}(X) with X around 20. That then feeds into BB_{w^3 + w3} (BB_{w^3 + w3} (X)), which then feeds into BB_{w^3 + w3 + 1}^53 (X).
Edit: I'm not thinking clearly, we should be able to cast Starlight to gain a lot of life, and we can perhaps use that life to set up a large hyperstage on the bottom, then put on a megastage transition with our Abandon the Post from hand, and have another hyperstage on top? So perhaps we can get BB_{w^2 * 2}(X) treasure tokens with X large? I guess we have to go through the opening to see how large we can make X, and if we can actually set up a proper double hyperstage.
Okay, fair enough. It would perhaps be nice if we could change things up so we wouldn't need Worldfire to get started... maybe have a colored mana left over from the start. I don't see a replacement for Epic Experiment off hand. Or possibly a replacement for Smoke Spirits' Aid - a black X spell could work, although black isn't ldeal for generating mana.
We can draw SSA with the first 14 draws, cast it to get Aura tokens, then shuffle SSA into the library and cast II again, drawing SSA and another card. If that extra card gets us access to the full deck, then we can do a full combo, I believe. So if 14 cards besides SSA are needed, we should be able to still get 3 SSA full combos.
Oh yeah, I was talking about getting perhaps 3 full combos - we won't get enough cards with 4 copies of II, but perhaps we could cast II another 5 times (without TYS of course), drawing SSA the last 3 times, which would beat out the max of 2 combos we can get if we draw 14 cards initially. Just a thought, it may not be possible.
Ooh very nice. Perhaps we can wait to play Veyran until after II, and draw 8 cards instead? If that's good enough, we may be able to get more than two SSA full combos...
ah right, we need to have our cards available for different stages/hyperstages.
So I guess what we need is a card that can make a token without targeting, like Soul Foundry, but without it having to be imprinted either. I'm not quite sure what such a card would be.
I think the first question with regards to the start is, can we get a BB computation going before we start resolving the Phabines?
Oh, can Riftsweeper work, by having Soul Foundry activations on the stack after a Worldfire? Seems like it should work. That way, we can make as many Phabines as is possible, rather than being restricted to 53.
It looks like Harmonic Prodigy could maybe work out, in which case it would be preferable if it led to a better start, which might be the case due to Ratabadrik requiring us to destroy our Legendaries before we can get a non-Legendary copy. On the other hand, maybe avoiding the headache of figuring out a 1 Veyran start is worth it; I can't really form an opinion until we get deeper into it.
I guess we would like something more versatile than Twinning Glass, like maybe Mirrorworks, if that were allowable. Unfortunately, Mirrorworks isn't compatible with Mox Ruby being a part of the combo.
The need for Faerie Conclave / Ghitu Encampment stems from Weathered Wayfarer being not-so-great. But, it looks like we don't have an alternative, now that we can't sub in a green replacement because we now have individual green mana and white mana stages.
With a gajillion copies of Fated being possible, we could certainly spare 52 copies to copy Phabine. So we wouldn't need to use up 3 cards from our opponent's deck resolving a Caress of Phyrexia targeted at the enemy. Since then we are no longer casting Caress on the opponent, we might as well go back to Infectious Inquiry and draw 18 cards rather than 9.
Edit: Oh, I guess Spawning Pool is a typed creature that the opponent could choose to regenerate or not regenerate, and can actually pay for it if we donate K'rrik. So maybe that's out.
As far as I can tell there's no real advantage to one over the other, other than the latter needing two Arcbonds to start and only one to restart. But, maybe someone will have an idea using this.
Keeping the Arcbond creature around does seem like a promising idea. Leonin Relic-Warder does look like it goes infinite by being able to bring Vedalken Orrery back to the battlefield, allowing us to plop down a creature or whatever. Some cards like Silkwrap are more restrictive on what cards they can exile, but none of the ones I saw had creature types, so they would all die early.
Then we have to figure out how to get back our stuff with Pull from Eternity after a Worldfire.
Until we find something, I may look at the traditional megastage version of the deck. We had a deck that was supposed to achieve F_{w^3 + w13 + 4}(X), but of course it had Mimic Vat. I think it had Worldpurge as well, which maybe doesn't work with Soul Foundry? But, I think we should be able to get at least to around that area with our various new ideas.
1 Coat of Arms
2 Rotlung Reanimator
3 Artificial Evolution
4 Arcbond
5 Comeuppance
6 Sanctifier en-Vec
7 Sleight of Mind
Starting a Computation
8 Opalescence
9 Wrong Turn
10 Kaervek's Spite
11 Goblin Boom Keg
12 March of the Machines
Utility
13 Vedalken Orrery
14 Metalworker
15 Twinning Glass
16 Thousand-Year Storm
17 Bloodbond March
18 Chancellor of the Annex
Foundry Stage
19 Resolute Watchdog
20 Soul Foundry
21 Phabine, Boss's Confidant
22 Cowardice
23 Mirror of Fate
24 Chromescale Drake
25 Ashnod the Uncaring
26 Ratadrabik of Urborg
27 Spellweaver Volute
28 Veyran, Voice of Duality
29 Fated Infatuation
30 Lingering Souls
31 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
32 Archon of Falling Stars
33 Pious Interdiction
Helix Megastage
34 Spellweaver Helix
35 Worldfire
36 Starlight
37 Abandon the Post
38 Abandon the Post
39 Mox Ruby
40 Yarok, the Desecrated
Blue Mana Stage
41 Master Transmuter
42 Floodchaser
43 Great Furnace
44 Brutal Suppression
45 Search for Glory
46 Snow-Covered Island
47 Arboreal Grazer
48 Firebrand Ranger
49 Groundskeeper
50 Forest
White Mana Stage
51 Ruin Ghost
52 Weathered Wayfarer
53 Archaeological Dig
54 Ghitu Encampment
Start
55 Mana Crypt
56 Epic Experiment
57 Resurgent Belief
58 Omniscience
59 Infectious Inquiry
End Layers
60 Smoke Spirits' Aid
The loss of Mind's Eye drops us to around BB_{w^3 + w3 + 1}(55).
does anyone have any idea how to fix this? One way of course would be to prove the flooding waterfall model Turing complete. Or, if we failed at that, we could try to build big machines using the flooding waterfall model anyway.
any other ways to do computation? There’s the original Churchill UTM, I imagine that’s just plain harder to keep from going infinite, but I don’t know if we’ve investigated it thoroughly.
Edit: Eh, I guess your point about Worldfire applies here as well. After we resolve the 9th II, SSA will be in our hand, so we have to cast it before any WOrldfires get resolved and it gets put into exile.
Edit: I'm not thinking clearly, we should be able to cast Starlight to gain a lot of life, and we can perhaps use that life to set up a large hyperstage on the bottom, then put on a megastage transition with our Abandon the Post from hand, and have another hyperstage on top? So perhaps we can get BB_{w^2 * 2}(X) treasure tokens with X large? I guess we have to go through the opening to see how large we can make X, and if we can actually set up a proper double hyperstage.
So I guess what we need is a card that can make a token without targeting, like Soul Foundry, but without it having to be imprinted either. I'm not quite sure what such a card would be.
I think the first question with regards to the start is, can we get a BB computation going before we start resolving the Phabines?
I guess we would like something more versatile than Twinning Glass, like maybe Mirrorworks, if that were allowable. Unfortunately, Mirrorworks isn't compatible with Mox Ruby being a part of the combo.
The need for Faerie Conclave / Ghitu Encampment stems from Weathered Wayfarer being not-so-great. But, it looks like we don't have an alternative, now that we can't sub in a green replacement because we now have individual green mana and white mana stages.
With a gajillion copies of Fated being possible, we could certainly spare 52 copies to copy Phabine. So we wouldn't need to use up 3 cards from our opponent's deck resolving a Caress of Phyrexia targeted at the enemy. Since then we are no longer casting Caress on the opponent, we might as well go back to Infectious Inquiry and draw 18 cards rather than 9.
Edit: Another page, another deck update:
1 Coat of Arms
2 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Artificial Evolution
4 Arcbond
5 Comeuppance
6 Dralnu's Crusade
Starting a Computation
7 Opalescence
8 Wrong Turn
9 Kaervek's Spite
10 Goblin Boom Keg
11 March of the Machines
Utility
12 Vedalken Orrery
13 Metalworker
14 Twinning Glass
15 Thousand-Year Storm
16 Bloodbond March
17 Chancellor of the Annex
Foundry Stage
18 Martyr of Spores
19 Soul Foundry
20 Phabine, Boss's Confidant
21 Cowardice
22 Mirror of Fate
23 Chromescale Drake
24 Ashnod the Uncaring
25 Ratadrabik of Urborg
26 Spellweaver Volute
27 Veyran, Voice of Duality
28 Fated Infatuation
29 Lingering Souls
30 K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth
31 Archon of Falling Stars
32 Pious Interdiction
Helix Megastage
33 Spellweaver Helix
34 Worldfire
35 Starlight
36 Abandon the Post
37 Abandon the Post
38 Mox Ruby
39 Yarok, the Desecrated
Blue Mana Stage
40 Master Transmuter
41 Floodchaser
42 Great Furnace
43 Brutal Suppression
44 Search for Glory
45 Snow-Covered Island
46 Arboreal Grazer
47 Firebrand Ranger
48 Groundskeeper
49 Forest
White Mana Stage
50 Ruin Ghost
51 Weathered Wayfarer
52 Archaeological Dig
53 Spawning Pool
Start
54 Mana Crypt
55 Epic Experiment
56 Resurgent Belief
57 Omniscience
58 Infectious Inquiry
End Layers
59 Mind's Eye
60 Smoke Spirits' Aid
Edit: Spawning Pool is cheaper than Ghitu Encampment.
Edit: Oh, I guess Spawning Pool is a typed creature that the opponent could choose to regenerate or not regenerate, and can actually pay for it if we donate K'rrik. So maybe that's out.