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  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmmm - Wrong Turn doesn't untap the creature, but now I'm realizing we only get to cast it once per Worldfire, and we don't get copies.

    Perhaps use Hunted Phantasm to give the opponent a lot of creatures, then Cultural Exchange to switch those with the creatures we want to give them. We can drop Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, and have 4 layers.


    Edit: I've been thinking again about having the primary stage be a creature token stage, but the standard ways of doing it seem to require Cowardice. The problem with Cowardice is that we can then bounce with our Arcbonds and Artificial Evolution, which allows us to profit from a hyperstage transition into Worldfire I think. So we want to avoid Cowardice.

    We could avoid Cowardice with Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer and Soul Foundry, but I can't figure out how to avoid the problem of turning damaged creature tokens into Goblin Boom Keg and having them die at the start of combat.

    The Bone Shredder version was another possibility, but that version ran into a number of problems, detailed in posts 3900 and 3901.


    Edit: Oh, I guess if we don't have March of the Machines, a Goblin Boom Keg won't die due to damage.

    I will try to see if I can assemble a creature stage deck then.


    Edit: Okay, I figure I'll just try something out, like:



    So, how can we get additional stages from here? The hyperstage mana color can be arbitrary, so we can use any two of white, green, and red for the additional stages, as well as life.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Keep in mind that we can only have two Arcbonded creatures in a computation. So the only way I see Mirrorpool being safe is if we have one Arcbond, and we get the second one using Mirrorpool. But, it looks like the plan is to only be able to recycle Mirrorpool in the additional stage, and of course if we do the computation that infrequently, we don't get a Busy Beaver hyperstage.


    Edit: Yeah, Thousand-Year Storm is also unsafe, because it can copy Arcbond. We're relying on Sea Gate Stormcaller to get copies of Artificial Evolution and Mobilize. (and Prosperity from the layer sequence)


    Edit: Okay, if taking out Dual Nature works, the next step is to fill out the ending layers. How can we generate a lot of red mana?


    Edit: Hmm, without Fractured Identity, we can't give the opponent Treasure tokens or Gold tokens, so we can use those in the layer sequence. So, how about:




    That would be 1 hyperstage + 1 stage + 5 layers, it looks like. I'm not sure that the changes don't require extra cards, so that's something we should look out for.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    March of the Machines should be okay, we cut it after it was no longer necessary; we just have to make sure that any further changes we made don't mess with it, e.g. Burnt Offering.

    The reason for using Fractured Identity is explained in post #3858; basically, we can use Artificial Evolution to changed the text of Rotlung Reanimators and Dralnu's Crusades that are still on the stack, and then Worldfire can exile Artificial Evolution, allowing us to get it back. Then, if we can get an infinite computation going with using the text-changed permanents, we can end whenever we want with the Artificial Evolution still in our hand.

    Iijil's solution was to use The Scarab God to create copies of Rotlung Reanimator, and Fractured Identity to bring it over to the opponent's side. I guess we have to check whether Domineering Will allows the opponent to go infinite.


    Edit: Oh, about the basic lands: for the Vintage version, we assume that all the opponent's cards are Wastes, so if they can put those into play they have access to colorless mana.


    Edit: Okay, I think Domineering Will and Dual Nature will go infinite, because we can change the text of a Rotlung Reanimator and a Dralnu's Crusade, then resolve those spells, and then Dual Nature can create non-hacked versions of Rotlung Reanimator, and we can make an infinite computation just like in Iijil's example.

    But, if we remove Dual Nature, then I think we are fine. If we resolve a hacked Rotlung Reanimator, it will be the only one we have, and we can't go infinite with just that one. To make more copies, we have to use The Scarab God, which means putting our hacked Rotlung Reanimator in the graveyard, so all our copies will have normal text. So yeah, that should be fine.

    We optimized our deck around having Dual Nature, so we may need to make some changes if we remove it. But, moxes now can't be given to the opponent, so perhaps the setup works now.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, one of the nonos is we can't allow the opponent to get certain colors of mana: If the opponent gets blue and black, the can activate The Scarab God to affect the computation. If they get green mana, they can activate Temur Sabertooth. If they get red and blue, they can activate Master Transmuter...

    Oh wait, with Thopter Engineer they don't need the red mana, so Master Transmuter + Thopter Engineer + Mox Sapphire + Fractured Identity is no good.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, maybe! Oh, but Rings of Brighthearth, combined with Master Transmuter, seems to be a problem. We could use a Master Transmuter to bounce Mox Sapphire to our hand, to put into play and get a lot of blue mana at the cost of generic mana; or, we could use Master Transmuter via Earthcraft to get a lot of black mana, if we have a Swamp. So that seems to go infinite.

    Illusionist's Bracers would have the same problem, I think. Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient costs red mana, which we don't want.


    Edit: I thought about using Mana Echoes on the opponent's side, and then using Drain Power to steal the colorless mana, but then I remembered that Mana Echoes goes infinite with Mirrorworks and Master Transmuter.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Ah, I missed what Thopter Engineer was for. That should work, although it removes combat stages from the layer sequence.


    Edit: Hmmm... For Vile Redeemer, I don't think we want a creature that triggers in our graveyard, since then it would trigger the same time as our Arcbonds, so we could decide whether or not the creature goes back to the battlefield immediately, or gets buried underneath Arcbond triggers. But, a creature that triggers when it dies could work.


    Edit: I think Young Wolf probably doesn't work, since it will come back on our side, and from then on it will be our trigger, which we can choose how we resolve compared to the Arcbonds.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Welcome back Stakfish! Great to have you back, and to have your creativity available for this challenge.

    Oh, very interesting! Still thinking about the the new stage, but one thing I noticed: I don't see how Sacrifice can allow us to store the progress of a computation. Previously we have used Brightstone Ritual, because the opponent can output Goblins, or Battle Hymn, which we can resolve after killing off a large number of opponent's creatures by bouncing Coat of Arms, while having a Rotlung Reanimator on our side, so that we get lots of creatures. Sacrifice gets us the mana value of the creature, which can only get really large if we cast a creature with an X in its casting cost, timees the number of Sea Gate Stormcallers which can't be really large until we have taken advantage of the result of an opponent's computation, so that's kind of a Catch-22.

    Previously, we used Mana Echoes to get mana commensurable with the output of the computation, but we won't have that with Kaevek's Spite.

    Oh, we are also currently using Master Transmuter to convert mana into artifacts like Rings of Brighthearth, so if we require red mana for haste, then we need to turn the result of the computation into red mana. Maybe the best way to salvage your idea then is to find a way to turn the result of a computation into usable resources without using red mana or Master Transmuter.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Looking at the counting again, it looks like 10 is inadvertently dropped, from 54 to 46. But, the +2's that we are getting from Death's Oasis and Bloodbond March turn into +4's starting from Kamahl until Iname; assuming that's an error, that adds an extra +8. Accounting for both errors results in +2, for 101 layers.


    Edit: Going back to the busy beaver deck, I suppose switching out Mox Sapphire for Eye of Ramos will allow us to pay 3 mana instead of 7 for Mirrorworks, so we wind up with 14 cards rather than 9. 14 cards are hopefully enough to get started.


    Edit: I think we can get 14 layers with fewer cards, by using Thrummingbird and proliferating Invasion of the Giants rather than Tymarret. Invasion of the Giants only does 2 damage, but we can use Gisela, Blade of Goldnight to double the damage. That's 2 extra cards rather than 3, so we have an extra card we can use to help out with the opening, perhaps Master Skald.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, another issue: Goblin Welder is supposed to get haste by spending red mana on Battle Cry Goblin, but Molten Echoes will give hasted copies for free.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    We've actually found stronger processes than layers alone. I think you would enjoy reading the writeups of previous layer decks:

    MetroidComposite's first deck, reaching 23 layers
    MetroidComposite's second deck, reaching 36 layers
    Sadistic Mystic's first deck, reaching 113 layers
    The first deck I had much of a hand in, reaching 263 layers
    The most recent writeup, reaching 408 layers - I contributed to this as well, but plopfill was the biggest contributor here.

    Shortly after that last deck was written up, an expansion came out that had Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, which can be used to replace both Soul of New Phyrexia and Thran Dynamo, leaving us with another card slot. That card slot can be used to add Devout Lightcaster, which can come in at the end of the sequence, adding 9 layers. That yields a final total of more than 2 -> 19 -> 417.

    Not too long after that, we had a major breakthrough.

    We've defined a "stage combo" to be a combo that takes X of some resource (like X creature tokens or X green mana, etc) and turns it into X layers. So the first stage basically performs the Ackermann function. This goes far beyond what you can do by individually adding layers, if you can execute the combo more than once; for example, if you start by using the stage combo with 10 green mana, you'll wind up with something like 10 -> 10 -> 10 green mana. (This is Conway chained arrow notation; in A -> B -> C, C is the number of layers, and B is the amount of the resource, i.e. how many times you perform the previous layer.) If we use the stage combo again, we'll get something like 10 -> 10 -> (10 -> 10 -> 10) green mana, so the number of layers is itself 10 -> 10 -> 10. Obviously we can never match that with a deck that adds layers individually. So this was a major paradigm shift.

    The stage combo is somewhat complicated, and can be implemented in many different ways.

    Here is an unfinished writeup of one of our decks. section 7 has a description of the stage combo.

    More recently, stage combos have found their way into Standard decks for this challenge.

    This was the first Standard deck to have a stage combo. It has a very nice section talking about the mechanics behind creating a stage combo. This was also the first stage combo that veered away markedly from the Bloodbond March / Psychic Battle paradigm at the time.

    After that, you can go to 1 stage + 1 layer, which takes X of a resource and performs the stage combo X times; 1 stage + 2 layers, which performs the 1 stage + 1 layer combo X times; and so on. Then, the second stage takes X of a resource and turns it into 1 stage + X layers.

    You can keep adding more stages like this; I think the furthest we got with individual stages was 26 stages. The next step then is to create a combo that takes X of a resource and creates X stages, which we called a hyperstage combo. We were able to create a deck with 2 hyperstages plus a few stages afterwards. Then, we defined a megastage as a combo that creates X hyperstages, and a gigastage as a deck that creates X megastages. We have a megastage deck that I'm quite confident works, and a few gigastage deck entries that still need verification to see whether everything is kosher or not.

    That work was more or less abandoned when jfb came in with the idea of implementing the Busy Beaver function, using a deck that implemented The Waterfall Model, which is a Turing-complete computational model. The Busy Beaver function blows the pants off anything we can do with recursion. (This next part gets pretty mathy, so you can skip if you're not that into math.) To give an idea of how fast it grows, we can represent our numbers using the fast-growing hierarchy, which is indexed by ordinals. The smallest ordinals are polynomials over w (actually the greek letter omega, but I'm too lazy to cut and paste that in). A layer increments the ordinal index by 1, a stage increments the ordinal index by w, and a hyperstage/megastage/gigastage increments the ordinal by w^2, w^3, and w^4, respectively. So the largest numbers we have been able to reach with recursion is about F_{w^4}. BB(85) has been shown to be bigger than F_{epsilon_0}(1908), which is equal to F_{w^w^w^w^w...^w}(1908) with 1908 w's in the exponential tower! So even at relatively low values, the Busy Beaver function beats anything we could conceivably do with just recursion.

    Our latest decks have managed to perform some pretty heavy recursion over the Busy Beaver function itself. We can define a fast-growing hierarchy BB_a, except instead of starting with a weak function, we start from the Busy Beaver function. So BB_0 = the Busy Beaver function, BB_1(N) applies the Busy Beaver function N times starting from N, BB_2(N) applies X -> BB_1(X) N times starting from N, and so on. Then we can have Busy Beaver stages and hyperstages as well. Our best is a Busy Beaver hyperstage plus a few layers, with the final damage number being BB_{w^2+14} (BB_{w^2+13} (X)), with X not quite having been worked out yet.

    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hi Dysfortune, and welcome to the thread! Thank you for your entry, I'm glad you found the challenge interesting. Smile

    I'm just going to post your deck here, so that I can look at the cards more easily.




    Edit: A couple of problems I noticed: Note that the opponent is not a true goldfish, they will act in a way to minimize the amount of damage that you can deal. (But they will also cooperate to go infinite and invalidate your deck) So, they can mulligan down to 0 cards to prevent you from drawing cards from Balance of Power.

    Also, it looks like Fathom Mage goes infinite, since it's Evolve ability will allow it to gain counters whenever a creature with higher power or toughness enters the battlefield, so there's no need for Nykthos Paragon.

    Concerning the counting, why does Argentum Armor get (+8,38)? It seems like it should be +4 like the previous members of the sequence.


    On the whole though, some very nice ideas! Getting a bunch of layers for each additional mana cost is quite powerful, and getting it for both artifacts and creatures is very nice.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    I guess another thing we can do is to send an unhacked Rotlung Reanimator to the opponent. The advantage is that this is relatively free; in the opening without Master Skald, we can get around 1900 hacked Rotlung Reanimators, and around 2^^^X unhacked Rotlung Reanimtors and other creatures. So, we could have proper waterclocks, flooding waterclocks, "incremented" waterclocks (i.e. creature types that have an extra however many Rotlung Reanimators of that type) and flooding incremented waterclocks. This probably gets really complicated.


    Edit: Hmmm, I wonder if Temple Garden and Ambush Commander can be partially replaced by Lair of the Hydra. Lair of the Hydra can come in untapped, but we use the green mana produced to turn it into a creature, so that it can be repeatedly untapped by Mobilize. We can not turn it into a creature, and just use the green mana to get ahead in the lower stage, but then Lair of the Hydra will be on the battlefield as a noncreature. The next time we resolve Worldfire, Lair of the Hydra will go into exile, where it will cost more to retrieve. So maybe that doesn't go infinite? I'm definitely not certain though, I could use some verification.

    In the case that it does happen to work, we will still need a source of white mana. We can replace Mana Crypt with Mox Pearl again to get access to white mana. But, this seems to conflict with Avacyn, Guardian Angel. So, we would like to replace Avacyn with some other card that protects us from dying to a computation. Gravebreaker Lamia already protects the opponent from both the computation and Kaervek's Spite, so we only have to protect ourselves. But, Safe Passage doesn't seem to work, as that will prevent the damage we need to have dealt to ourselves in the layers.


    Edit: Hmm, I think we can cut out Mana Crypt and Tolarian Academy! We can exile Elvish Spirit Guide and put Temple Garden into play untapped, allowing us to cat Channel. Then, we can cast Mirrorworks, and get a copy of Mox Sapphire after we play it. Two blue mana is enough to cast Prosperity, and then cast Show and Tell to put Omniscience into play.

    That's a lot of life spent though. If we play Radiant Fountain at the beginning, we can cast Prosperity for up to 11, and still have 2 life left over for Show and Tell. That's a lot fewer cards, but hopefully we can get started? If necessary, we can use one of the extra cards for Master Skald.

    With the extra space, we can add World at War, taking us up to BB_{w^2+14} (BB_{w^2+13} (X)) I think.


    Edit: Correction, we can't play Radiant Fountain at the beginning, because we need to play Temple Garden. So we have 1 card remaining in hand, and can draw up to 8.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Hmm, I think I'm getting the idea wrong. With the heartbeat clock, a flooding clock that represents X tokens will take 2X ticks to die, and gain X tokens, so it will add a multiple of 2X to various waterclocks. If we add 2X to both FC1 and FC2 when FC2 hits zero, then FC1 will always be more than FC2, so it won't halt. We can make it halt by doing something like add 2X to FC1 and 4X to FC2. Then, if FC1 starts at N and FC2 starts at 1, it looks like the program will halt after between 2N and 4N steps.

    If we add FC3, and FC3 adds 2X to FC1 and FC2, and 4X to FC3 when it hits 0, then it takes 952 steps starting at 100,1,1 for example. So it looks like this just multiplies by a small constant.


    Edit: Oh, I guess the trick is to add 4X to FC1 instead of 2X when FC3 hits 0. That makes it much more powerful.

    Does that implement an arrow system?


    Edit: Hmm no, it looks like that just goes infinite actually.


    Edit: Well, it might not actually go infinite, but the behavior seems rather chaotic. We can make things more orderly, by having each flooding clock imcrease every flooding clock by 4X, except for the one before it, which it can increase by 2X. That has a more orderly recursion, but it doesn't quite work right; the largest index FC's will trigger first, and then work it's way down, which is the opposite of what we want. What we would like is to have the lowest index trigger first, and have each FC trigger lead to many triggers of the one before it. I don't know how to do that.

    Perhaps we could do something similar to what Iijil did, using one or two clocks per layer to signify state, except we do it with flooding clocks. We can sorta deal with the multiplicative nature of the flooding clocks by considering powers of 2 perhaps, where doubling becomes basically incrementing the exponent. If so, we could cut the number of creature types needed in half.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    No worries! I feel like writing up the article does matter, to have it for the historical record at least - the previous articles are still interesting, at least to me, and I feel like if we went to the effort to make the deck, we should finish and write it up. Of course, you have been doing most of the work with the writeups, so I appreciate that very much! I can try to do some more editing going forward, and hopefully we can finish this off. I added sections for the setup, the layer sequence, and the final damage, so I think that should take care of nearly all the content we need. Just needs to be updated to the most recent version of the deck, and edited and prettified. We can lower our standards to get it done, I suppose.

    How many Rotlung Reanimators are needed for the UTM? That's the crucial number; the number of clocks don't really matter, except indirectly in affecting how many Reanimators (and Dralnu's Crusades, but we only need a few Dralnu's Crusades) we need.

    The start will depend on whether we have any extra card slots left over from the layer sequence. If we have at least one slot, we can add Master Skald, which along with our other card fetchers will allow us to access the entire deck before combat. So we should be able to generate BB_{w^2 + 1}(X) Moraug triggers before combat, where X is how many Rings of Brighthearth triggers we can get when we finally activate our Blighted Steppe. So this will be large regardless, however the value of X may very well depend on the output of a Waterfall computation, so even here we may need to an estimate or lower bound as to the size of it. (I haven't looked into this enough to give more details.)

    If we don't have any more space left, than the best I was able to do was to generate about 1900 black mana, and then, depending on how much of that mana we are willing to give up, generate something like 2^^^X of other resources, like other colors of mana and Panharmonicons and Sea Gate Stormcallers. So we will be able to generate around 1900 - Y Rotlung Reanimators and 2^^^X token creatures.

    So, then it matters whether we need X^^^^X or X^^^X tokens to make a machine of size X. Precise bounds will be very helpful, since even with X^^^X we will be cutting it close. We will also need to be able to code the UTM with 1900 - Y Reanimators, of course.

    So yeah, precise details with regard to the translation to UTM's and the normal Busy Beaver function would be of great help!

    I think that perhaps when we write this up, we could include both the lower bound in terms of a Waterfall Busy Beaver function (perhaps we can define WBB(R,C) to be the largest output that we can get from a halting computation that requires no more than R Rotlung Reanimators and C input creatures), and then possibly also in other terms, like a computational bound, and/or a standard Busy Beaver bound, so that we have a bound in whatever version the reader prefers.

    Using flooding clocks to help cut down on resources when we program actual Waterfall programs could be useful, as could ignoring the rule that waterclocks can't zero at the same time. I'm not sure about doing much better than tetration with very few proper waterclocks though - I would theorize that the actual Busy Beaver Waterfall programs will be amazingly good, but in terms of what we can actually program, I'm not sure if we will be able to implement say the Ackermann function with just a few waterclocks. Did you have something in mind?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Most turn 1 damage in a deck with no infinite combos
    Oh, very nice! So, 42 layers would require 128 clocks, which work out to 256 creature types, (or 255 since the last clock seems to not produce anything) less than the 261 we currently have. 128 clocks seem to take about 2*128*127 ~ 32,000 donations, seems reasonable.


    Edit: Hmm, I think Mage Slayer is problematic, because of the need to equip. I think Emberwilde Captain works? Emberwilde Captain switches around who takes and who deals damage, so it's back to Night Dealings, which is just as well probably.


    Edit: Okay, this start is triggering me. I believe I know how to get to Mobilize / Blighted Steppe / Rings of Brighthearth combo and get a decent triple arrow number, then go to the computation. The problem is that we won't have much black mana. Even if we can keep Iijil's start, and then cast a Burnt Offering, sacrificing a Gravebreaker Lamia say, we will only get 900+ black/red mana, and we have to use that mana if we want to build up more. So, if we need to use The Scarab God for our Rotlung Reanimators, we can only get about 900 of them perhaps. If we can cast Rotlung Reanimator from our hand, we could potentially get a lot more, but of course this wouldn't give precisely the Waterfall Model, as Iijil pointed out earlier.

    Ideally, we would want to delay the casting of Burnt Offering until we cast some other buildup spells, like Battle Hymn or Acorn Harvest. But, we are using our black mana for a lot of the card fetches, using The Scarab God and Mystical Teachings. So, delaying Burnt Offering means we have to have drawn those cards. I'm having trouble making do with the card slots we have again.


    Edit: Hmmm, do we really need Wood Elves? When Temple Garden is a creature, we can use Temur Sabertooth to bring it back to our hand, then Wormfang Behemoth can protect it from [c}Worldfire[/c]. After Worldpurge, we can use Show and Tell to put it back on the battlefield. (I don't think we currently need Show and Tell for anything else?)

    If Wood Elves can be removed, then we have another card slot. I'm thinking about using Silkbind Faerie. When we resolve a Tolarian Kraken trigger, we can tap a Silkbind Faerie. We can then untap the Silkbind Faerie to put a lot of Rings of Brighthearth triggers on the stack, each of which can tap an Arbiter of the Ideal, which we can then untap with Mobilize. So I think that's another layer.

    We can use two Silkbind Faeries to repeatedly tap each other and get more RoB triggers, but each time it costs mana, and I don't think we get any benefit from this procedure until we resolve Mobilize to untap an Arbiter of the Ideal, at which point the party stops.


    Edit: Oh, I guess the party doesn't have to stop; after a Mobilize, we can use a RoB trigger to tap a Silkbind Faerie, then create more RoB triggers again. So this goes infinite.


    Edit: Instead of Silkbind Faerie, I'm contemplating having a Gilder Bairn and using it to get to the second stage of Kiora Bests the Sea God, which can tap Gilder Bairns under the opponent's control. To keep this from going infinite, we can have something sufficiently expensive to gain control of the tapped Gilder Bairns. (Mass Manipulation?) It doesn't look like this is worth the cards though.


    Edit: It occurred to me it would be okay to damage animated enchantments, since if we dealt damage to an animated enchantment with Arcbond on it, it would quickly die and the computation would stop. So, that opens up the possibility of using the cards that required dealing damage to creatures, like Guilty Conscience and Spiteful Shadows. But, it looks like those particular cards don't add any layers, for the same reason that Backfire doesn't: the enchanted creature goes away once we try to make use of the damage, and the triggers that we have are only worth one layer. Looking at global enchantments, we have Repercussion and Mangara's Equity. Those two seem to go infinite together though. Repercussion could perhaps combo very well with Justice, but it has to start with damage dealt to a creature, and to be safe we want to deal damage to an animated enchantment. However, I'm not sure how we would restrict to just damaging animated enchantments, unless we use a damage bouncer, and the damage bouncers that I know (Guilty Conscience and Mangara's Equity) seem to go infinite with Repercussion. So, no progress here.


    Edit: I was wondering if we could get something off of Proliferate, like using Thrummingbird. I was thinking Thrummingbird could get us to the fourth stage of The Akroan War, causing all our tapped creatures to damage themselves. But, not all creatures would kill themslves this way. In particular, Master Transmuter wouldn't kill itself with the damage, and we can make it tapped even without Tolarian Kraken, if we were to remove that. So presumably we can get an infinite computation started that way.

    Another idea is to get to the final stage of Tymaret Calls the Dead, and give the opponent life. Then we can use something like Kaboom! to deal damage to them, and trigger Justice and the rest, adding two additional layers. But, due to not being able to damage the opponent lower down, we have to replace Brallin, Skyshark Rider with Megrim, which we can't link into Justice, so we lose a layer. Also, we're one card over, so we're going to lose another layer. But, we can drop World at War, so that we end in Moraug for BB_{w^2+13} (BB_{w^2+13} (X)) damage.


    Edit: Oh, I had a very nice idea that I really hoped would work out, but it doesn't quite work out yet. We saw that we were able to double up on Justice, once for dealing 3 or more damage, and once for dealing 1-2 damage. I was thinking perhaps we could double up again, by which players used and got affected by which effects. In particular, perhaps we could have Megrim or Brallin, Skyshark Rider be able to deal 3+ damage, but only one way. So, we could use cards that increased damage that our sources deal, but not the opponent's, so we that we can re-trigger Pain Magnification when the sources are on our side, then they will go on to the other side, and we can't trigger again.

    Using Brallin nicely switches who takes damage, but unfortunately Justice switches it back, so with Brallin + Justice we'll keep having Brallin on our side, which is no good. With Brallin and no Justice, we'll gain two layers, with the repeat, but losing Justice costs us two layers, and we need a card to increase Brallin's damage, so we wind up with the same number of layers and the same number of cards as a previous layer sequence. (Not the most recent one with Thrummingbird, which seems to be better)

    Megrim + Justice would switch, if Justice was triggered by Megrim. I don't know of a way to make Megrim trigger Justice that wouldn't also allow Justice to trigger itself and go infinite. (e.g. Sleight of Mind or Chaoslace) I tried to think of ways to replace Justice, but anything that enchants or deals damage to a Megrim will stop being useful once Megrim goes away, so I didn't see a way to add a layer with cards like Mangara's Equity or Backfire.

    Spiteful Visions has the characteristics to work with Justice, but I don't know of a damage mechanic like Pain Magnfication for drawing.

    So yeah, not an improvement yet with this idea. If we could somehow get the repeat and keep Justice, that could potentially add 3 layers.


    Edit: Oh, I guess with Megrim we wouldn't have to rely on Justice or whatever we used to add another layer, we could get the infinite with just Megrim. So yeah, it looks like we can only use Brallin.
    Posted in: Magic General
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