Tsabo's Web, usually horrible outside of its small standard run, would work against Boseiju. But realistically, B2B would be just as good if not better b/c of the all around hate factor
Mindbreak Trap however, I think may be what you want. Exiling a spell is not the same as countering. So a tree-protected Scapeshift can still meet a fate out of game. It also has its normal 0 cost vs Storm, so if need be can fight in place of. but I'd say in addition to, Stifle.
Relic is also pretty good if you can take out a Loam none the less.
Most of these are standard answers to the format, it is just the numbers you run in the deck
~Rules Question~
If someone Wasteland's the Valakut with the triggers on the stack, does it still deal dmage?
correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Wasteland help tremendously against Valakut?
Also, what are they using to keep you from countering Scapeshift? If it is Boseiju, use Wasteland. If it is Vexing Shusher, use Hydroblast.
I would also advocate +1 Cursecatcher MD
You could even go so far as Pithing Needle, Declaration of Naught (not a great call), Mana Short, or things like Tidal Control (that would be awesome if it worked).
However, fetchs could have been in any block at anytime, so that isn't really a theme so much as good support.
Perhaps Rise will shed some light on this. Look at the synergy between Coldsnap and TS... none I can clearly think of besides Rune Snag being good with Mystical Teachings and Skred making Stuffy Doll amazing
For budget reasons I helped a friend retool an intro deck
To make subs for the rares here are the rules I've been using
Nocturnus -> Consume Spirit (late game card both of them)
Blood Ghast -> Removal/ Black Knight
Sorin -> Vess
Fetches are only really useful as many have said, w/ Nocturnus
I think right now Vampire's Bite is very useful if you are running 6+ First Strike'rs like Hexmage/Knight as it makes combat a breeze
Taking a page from Jund and using 4x Duress Main with a mix of 3-4 Sludge between Main and SB seems a good idea. The only thing I advocate and doesn't always work is the 4x Mind Rot in board.
The "Pure Aggro" idealogy of the 4+ 1cc vamps feels right for an FNM; however.. against better tooled decks like non-budget Jund or even Haterators (W/x pro guys) they seems less than applicable.
My final comments are.. "What... No Vess?" they are $4 as per MagicTraders.com; w/o Sorin the mirror gets sloppy, the constant tutor and discard from her can make the game easier. Discard seems like the only way to handle the Doom Blade/Feast of Blood discussion. Blood needs 2 vamps + sorcery, and Blade is running low on targets these days. If you can use discard to strip options away, then the $5 Bloodwitches really act like Baneslayers (I know it is an over-the-top comment).
Draw: Courier's Capsule; either replacing or with Ion Ruin. It is quicker in the early game which is where you need draw/fixing to start going towards critical mass.
Divination: it is bad.. but then again draw is hard in standard.
Removal: -Blightning, +Oblivion Ring; Blightning gains its power from a aggressive strategy and the fear of multiple discard outlets to strip a hand.
Doom Blade just feels like it will have a target too many times, and it is too easy on the mana to not be in there
PLaneswalkers +More... it really is that simple. If you can get them, I'd run probably every one except CHandra Ablaze, Ajani Goldmane and Tezzeret.
Creatures: You run many "bomb" creatures.. but what about ones that protect themselves? No Sphinx of Jwar Isle, SPhinx of the Steel Wind, Wall of Denial, or even heavy hitters like Bogardan Hellkite?!?!
Mana: I also am a firm believer in either uping the fetchland count by atleast Terramorphic Expanse if not Panoramas.. but also Traumatic Visions AND Sylvan Bounty. Fiery Fall could count as it can double as a bad removal spell
Blatant Cuts: Mask of Riddles; w/o early drop creatures it is too little, too late. I would argue Behemoth Sledge over this at the least.
Exploding Borders is really only good in Aggressive 5c as it hits players/walkers only. I mean if you play against Walkers all the time.. keep it.
Child of Alara... I love the concept, but w/o a sac outlet it will either get Path'd or taken out at the wrong time and you will not be the one benefiting
Worldheart Phoenix either needs more sweepers like PLanar Cleansing and Magma Phoenix, or it just isn't enough since you aren't dumping it into the 'yard like the old days of Thirst for Knowledge or Compulsive Research.
Kiss of Amesha; Good Card! But it needs 2 things. 1) clear/advantageous board position. 2) Open mana. If you aren't hiding behind Wall of Denial or casting it post DoJ.. you are probably only gaining 2 life and 2 cards.. at sorcery speed.
Overall Comments: If you want I will definately throw out more ideas.. I love my 5c EDH deck to death and it is because of the answers and versatility. That said, it is a tough process of balancing early game survival with late game punch. You either need better, cheaper defenses or more ways to gain advantage. I'll end with a list of 1-of's that are valid name-drops
Rhox War Monk
Pyroclasm(1st)/Volcanic Fallout(2nd)
Sprouting Thrinax
Vampire Nighthawk
Swerve
Offering to Amesha
Acidic Slime
Mold Shambler
Pale Recluse
Kraken Hatchling, Wall of Frost, Wall of Bone, and other low cc high toughness guys.
Unstable Fontier/Exotic Orchard/Rupture Spire to increase mana diversity
Cruel Ultimatum since it is the best 5c finisher
There used to be a deck called Suicide Virus, IIRC. It was a Myr Servitor + Skullclamp deck that could build to near critical mass thanks to a few activations of Academy and Intuition
after my own testing, I agree that the anti-weenie board should be in board. Against Jund, the discard is what you need. Mirror, same. Possibly punting game 1, then sealing up game 2+3 because you REALLY don't want DoJ main. Ajani is ok as he does other things like threaten a lockout.
I too am looking for alternates to BSA, tried Ant Queen b/c it did so well in Eldrazi Green and I had spares thanks to m10 Release event. Not impressed either.
BSA is more important for the 5cc IMO, being able to threaten 2x as much from a Wurm is good. Possibly Lost Truths? But Shroud is probably the right call..
On that note, Wall of Denial is my main SB against aggro.. they just about fold to 2x Walls every game.
I don't think it should be the card that is budget, but the deck. If you have an almost all common deck and then add $20 of the best splash removal spell.. so be it, just note that is where the money went
I'm not expecting market price next to each card, but it might be an idea to show exactly where the money goes in each list.
Another "budget" list could be a converted 5c Cascade. The money is in Baneslayer and the manabase. I've heard ppl say Baneslayer can become Ajani Vengeant and still be just fine (as a 2x) and putting War Monks in the Main. The manabase just becomes a slop of Rupture Spire, Tri's, Panorama/Terramorphic and Exotic orchard should stay. It would take more testing. But, turning Bloodbraid into Kathari Remnant for color reason means you have 8x BU, 8x GW, 4x BR (8 if you count the Blightning) and the random Sphinx. Esper Charm is AMAZING, but the manabase might need Mind Rot.
Baneslayer is the REAL problem, 2x Ajani main is like $12, Heck... Ant Queen might not even be terrible as a solid body that makes chumps?!?!?! or add some Wall of Denials to save your @$$
Where you want to add money first is the manabase. You want like 4-5 Fetch, about 3-5 m10 "duals" so you can get turn 4 plays turn 4. That is my only complaint, the turn slow manabase.
Ant Queen or basically any other 5cc finisher is what you are looking to replace BSA, there is use of SPhinx of Jwar Isle, but you can use anything out of Bit Blast range to make the deck work well. Currently leaning towards Uril
The DoJ in SB are unfortunately rather necessary. They can be played w/o but it helps so much.
I could go on and on, but I'll save it for another time unless someone wants me to put up more brainstorming.
I'm going to have to disagree strongly on the Larva if only to say Blastoderm and Wild Leotau are aggressive. Larva is Conditional.
In a follow-up I am going to mention sonething noone drafted highly ut was never very unhappy tgo have make the maindeck: Greater Mossdog. Sometimes a 3/3 that won't quite is more dangerous than a 2/2 that imitates a 5/5 if you play strong base green.
I feel like the skycutter debate I jumped on so quickly; there might be more need of anti-flyer tech. At the least Giant Spider, but in a realm more towards reality I'd say Cloudcrown Oak, Oran-Rief Recluse, etc. With the Hungry Spriggan you are definately playing all-in green.
And because I have such a strong dislike of Larva outside of the set it is in, I will follow further with the "?" how does he work well with Karoo lands or encourage multicolor decks? Answer: Not at all.
I apologize for being so strong, but I cannot abide the decision that it is good when you have 15+ years of commons to chose from and you pick the most recent 4cc
Here are my discrepancies:
You added WAY too much from ZEN. It didn't change that much, I had 15 cards that got cut to like 10.
Black:
Crypt Ripper is bad. Everyone I play with generally is not a fan of Shade effets. And the haste thing is odd, it is just not the best option
The Surrakar Marauder is underwhelming to me, its main advantage is the 2cc.
I am surprised at the lack of the Mosquito. I find it to be the 2nd Butcher.
Red:
Cutting Puncture Blast seems like the worst cut you could have made. Handling regeneraters, shinking guys.. it is so good!
Bushwacker? I would have to hear reports. Same with Shortcutter, not impressed. I would've kept Skycutter
Green:
Timbermaw Larva IMO should be atleast Kavu Primarch still. The convoke + kicker is a nice option. The Larva dies easy. I will admit it was good in Sealed but as a 2 color deck it'll get to 5/5 on offense and die to shocks on their turn or EOT
The Recluse follows my belief that kicker assassin creatures are good
if you go all common each card is only avg $0.15!!!
there are a couple of all common cube's on here that you can get ideas from, and if your local store has an "any card $0.10" box, that helps a long way
Well in that case I withdraw Tsabo's web, as it then does next to nothing except against manlands and Maze
I think I might have to find my Energy Fields and leave those with me in case that deck gets popular near me
Mindbreak Trap however, I think may be what you want. Exiling a spell is not the same as countering. So a tree-protected Scapeshift can still meet a fate out of game. It also has its normal 0 cost vs Storm, so if need be can fight in place of. but I'd say in addition to, Stifle.
Relic is also pretty good if you can take out a Loam none the less.
Most of these are standard answers to the format, it is just the numbers you run in the deck
~Rules Question~
If someone Wasteland's the Valakut with the triggers on the stack, does it still deal dmage?
Also, what are they using to keep you from countering Scapeshift? If it is Boseiju, use Wasteland. If it is Vexing Shusher, use Hydroblast.
I would also advocate +1 Cursecatcher MD
You could even go so far as Pithing Needle, Declaration of Naught (not a great call), Mana Short, or things like Tidal Control (that would be awesome if it worked).
However, fetchs could have been in any block at anytime, so that isn't really a theme so much as good support.
Perhaps Rise will shed some light on this. Look at the synergy between Coldsnap and TS... none I can clearly think of besides Rune Snag being good with Mystical Teachings and Skred making Stuffy Doll amazing
To make subs for the rares here are the rules I've been using
Nocturnus -> Consume Spirit (late game card both of them)
Blood Ghast -> Removal/ Black Knight
Sorin -> Vess
Fetches are only really useful as many have said, w/ Nocturnus
I think right now Vampire's Bite is very useful if you are running 6+ First Strike'rs like Hexmage/Knight as it makes combat a breeze
Taking a page from Jund and using 4x Duress Main with a mix of 3-4 Sludge between Main and SB seems a good idea. The only thing I advocate and doesn't always work is the 4x Mind Rot in board.
The "Pure Aggro" idealogy of the 4+ 1cc vamps feels right for an FNM; however.. against better tooled decks like non-budget Jund or even Haterators (W/x pro guys) they seems less than applicable.
My final comments are.. "What... No Vess?" they are $4 as per MagicTraders.com; w/o Sorin the mirror gets sloppy, the constant tutor and discard from her can make the game easier. Discard seems like the only way to handle the Doom Blade/Feast of Blood discussion. Blood needs 2 vamps + sorcery, and Blade is running low on targets these days. If you can use discard to strip options away, then the $5 Bloodwitches really act like Baneslayers (I know it is an over-the-top comment).
4 Child of Night
3 Gatekeeper of Malikir
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Bloodwitch of Malikir
2 Black Knight
2 Mind Sludge
4 Tendrils of Corruption
2 Consume Spirit
3 Vampire Bite
4 Sign in Blood
1 Gatekeeper Of Malikir
1 Mind Sludge
4 Mind Rot
4 Deathmark
2 Lilliana Vess
3 Open Meta Slots
Draw: Courier's Capsule; either replacing or with Ion Ruin. It is quicker in the early game which is where you need draw/fixing to start going towards critical mass.
Divination: it is bad.. but then again draw is hard in standard.
Removal: -Blightning, +Oblivion Ring; Blightning gains its power from a aggressive strategy and the fear of multiple discard outlets to strip a hand.
Doom Blade just feels like it will have a target too many times, and it is too easy on the mana to not be in there
PLaneswalkers +More... it really is that simple. If you can get them, I'd run probably every one except CHandra Ablaze, Ajani Goldmane and Tezzeret.
Creatures: You run many "bomb" creatures.. but what about ones that protect themselves? No Sphinx of Jwar Isle, SPhinx of the Steel Wind, Wall of Denial, or even heavy hitters like Bogardan Hellkite?!?!
Mana: I also am a firm believer in either uping the fetchland count by atleast Terramorphic Expanse if not Panoramas.. but also Traumatic Visions AND Sylvan Bounty. Fiery Fall could count as it can double as a bad removal spell
Blatant Cuts: Mask of Riddles; w/o early drop creatures it is too little, too late. I would argue Behemoth Sledge over this at the least.
Exploding Borders is really only good in Aggressive 5c as it hits players/walkers only. I mean if you play against Walkers all the time.. keep it.
Child of Alara... I love the concept, but w/o a sac outlet it will either get Path'd or taken out at the wrong time and you will not be the one benefiting
Worldheart Phoenix either needs more sweepers like PLanar Cleansing and Magma Phoenix, or it just isn't enough since you aren't dumping it into the 'yard like the old days of Thirst for Knowledge or Compulsive Research.
Kiss of Amesha; Good Card! But it needs 2 things. 1) clear/advantageous board position. 2) Open mana. If you aren't hiding behind Wall of Denial or casting it post DoJ.. you are probably only gaining 2 life and 2 cards.. at sorcery speed.
Overall Comments: If you want I will definately throw out more ideas.. I love my 5c EDH deck to death and it is because of the answers and versatility. That said, it is a tough process of balancing early game survival with late game punch. You either need better, cheaper defenses or more ways to gain advantage. I'll end with a list of 1-of's that are valid name-drops
Rhox War Monk
Pyroclasm(1st)/Volcanic Fallout(2nd)
Sprouting Thrinax
Vampire Nighthawk
Swerve
Offering to Amesha
Acidic Slime
Mold Shambler
Pale Recluse
Kraken Hatchling, Wall of Frost, Wall of Bone, and other low cc high toughness guys.
Unstable Fontier/Exotic Orchard/Rupture Spire to increase mana diversity
Cruel Ultimatum since it is the best 5c finisher
There used to be a deck called Suicide Virus, IIRC. It was a Myr Servitor + Skullclamp deck that could build to near critical mass thanks to a few activations of Academy and Intuition
I too am looking for alternates to BSA, tried Ant Queen b/c it did so well in Eldrazi Green and I had spares thanks to m10 Release event. Not impressed either.
BSA is more important for the 5cc IMO, being able to threaten 2x as much from a Wurm is good. Possibly Lost Truths? But Shroud is probably the right call..
On that note, Wall of Denial is my main SB against aggro.. they just about fold to 2x Walls every game.
I'm not expecting market price next to each card, but it might be an idea to show exactly where the money goes in each list.
Another "budget" list could be a converted 5c Cascade. The money is in Baneslayer and the manabase. I've heard ppl say Baneslayer can become Ajani Vengeant and still be just fine (as a 2x) and putting War Monks in the Main. The manabase just becomes a slop of Rupture Spire, Tri's, Panorama/Terramorphic and Exotic orchard should stay. It would take more testing. But, turning Bloodbraid into Kathari Remnant for color reason means you have 8x BU, 8x GW, 4x BR (8 if you count the Blightning) and the random Sphinx. Esper Charm is AMAZING, but the manabase might need Mind Rot.
Baneslayer is the REAL problem, 2x Ajani main is like $12, Heck... Ant Queen might not even be terrible as a solid body that makes chumps?!?!?! or add some Wall of Denials to save your @$$
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Rupture Spire
3 Exotic Orchard
2 Seaside Citadel
2 Arcane Sanctum
2 Crumbling Necropolis
2 Jungle Shrine
1 Savage Land
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Enigma Sphinx
6cc
4 Enlisted Wurm
5cc
4 Bituminous Blast
4 Deny Reality
2 Ant Queen
4cc
4 Kathari Remnant
4 Captured Sunlight
2 Ajani Vengeant
3cc
4 Esper Charm
4 Blightning
1 Divination
4 Wall of Denial
4 Day of Judgment
2 Haunting Echoes
Where you want to add money first is the manabase. You want like 4-5 Fetch, about 3-5 m10 "duals" so you can get turn 4 plays turn 4. That is my only complaint, the turn slow manabase.
Ant Queen or basically any other 5cc finisher is what you are looking to replace BSA, there is use of SPhinx of Jwar Isle, but you can use anything out of Bit Blast range to make the deck work well. Currently leaning towards Uril
The DoJ in SB are unfortunately rather necessary. They can be played w/o but it helps so much.
I could go on and on, but I'll save it for another time unless someone wants me to put up more brainstorming.
In a follow-up I am going to mention sonething noone drafted highly ut was never very unhappy tgo have make the maindeck: Greater Mossdog. Sometimes a 3/3 that won't quite is more dangerous than a 2/2 that imitates a 5/5 if you play strong base green.
I feel like the skycutter debate I jumped on so quickly; there might be more need of anti-flyer tech. At the least Giant Spider, but in a realm more towards reality I'd say Cloudcrown Oak, Oran-Rief Recluse, etc. With the Hungry Spriggan you are definately playing all-in green.
And because I have such a strong dislike of Larva outside of the set it is in, I will follow further with the "?" how does he work well with Karoo lands or encourage multicolor decks? Answer: Not at all.
I apologize for being so strong, but I cannot abide the decision that it is good when you have 15+ years of commons to chose from and you pick the most recent 4cc
You added WAY too much from ZEN. It didn't change that much, I had 15 cards that got cut to like 10.
Black:
Crypt Ripper is bad. Everyone I play with generally is not a fan of Shade effets. And the haste thing is odd, it is just not the best option
The Surrakar Marauder is underwhelming to me, its main advantage is the 2cc.
I am surprised at the lack of the Mosquito. I find it to be the 2nd Butcher.
Red:
Cutting Puncture Blast seems like the worst cut you could have made. Handling regeneraters, shinking guys.. it is so good!
Bushwacker? I would have to hear reports. Same with Shortcutter, not impressed. I would've kept Skycutter
Green:
Timbermaw Larva IMO should be atleast Kavu Primarch still. The convoke + kicker is a nice option. The Larva dies easy. I will admit it was good in Sealed but as a 2 color deck it'll get to 5/5 on offense and die to shocks on their turn or EOT
The Recluse follows my belief that kicker assassin creatures are good
there are a couple of all common cube's on here that you can get ideas from, and if your local store has an "any card $0.10" box, that helps a long way