Force of Will: unfortunately, this is a bit more expensive, but there's really no alternative, and as a defensive deck, you really need the free countermagic.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: again, there's not really an alternative to Jace. He generates card advantage and is a one-card win condition. Two is probably the minimum, but you could start with one.
Cards that are very good in the deck that you probably want, but could play without for a while:
Predict: it's a bit more expensive, but is a very important catch-up card to help you keep up with the other deck's threats. This is probably a borderline 'must play' card.
Soothsaying and/or Counterbalance: These cards have been making an appearance in some recent lists, and are worth considering. (I'm probably going to test a Soothsaying build this week.)
Flusterstorm: Spell Pierce is an adequate substitute for a while. Note that Flusterstorm just got reprinted, so hopefully the price will go down.
Tundra: you eventually want these to not have to shock yourself or try to make lesser lands work.
What would you consider prioritizing?
The cards I currently own from what you mentioned are:
Play sets of: Brainstorm, Ponder, Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage and Monastery Mentor (which I really want to try, I've always wanted to play Mentor).
I'm a long time blue enthusiast in Modern, and legacy has always been slightly out of reach financially. However, my LGS is starting a small Legacy tournament, allowing for 15 proxies at first until people find their feet. I've tested and thoroughly enjoyed this version of Miracles, even more than the R.I.P. Top version that I had a proxy deck of.
My question to you guys is this -
What are the very basics that I need to run this deck?
I've decided not to go for the red splash due to Volcanic Island's price tag. But I have most of the deck already apart from the heavy hitters.
Would, starting out, buying 4 Force of Will's and 2 Tundra's be enough to enjoy the deck? I have 1 Jace and plan on trading into another. Would you suggest I run more basics or something like Glacial Fortress/Hallowed Fountain as people usually run more than two duels?
Definitely will be following this. I have been playing with the idea since the Fatal Push spoiler.
I've asked this in the Midrange forum but haven't gotten many replies. What about forgoing the Delve creatures in favor for a Monastery Mentor and Dark Confidant card package?
Monastery Mentor goes very well with cantrips and counter magic and this helps make the deck more resilient to graveyard hate.
I'm currently testing this list (Esper Midrange) and have had a lot of success:
Up until the Gitaxian Probe banning I played straight UR Delver and wanted to switch it up a bit so I tried Esper.
I'd love to see an Esper Delver deck list go up now.
So thinking about this list (the sideboard is completely experimental), maybe lowering the curve slightly with taking out Dark Confidant and a Lingering Souls / Monastery Mentor and the man-lands in favor for a 20-21 land count and adding 4 Delvers could be viable?
I chose to run no mainboard counter magic in this list as it tends to be more proactive and Jund-esque, but perhaps counter magic is the right route.
So basically, why not try to do with the Bob + Monastery Mentor package instead of Delve creatures? They both work well with a low Delver curve, create card advantage / incremental card advantage and work very well with cantrips.
Hello everyone,
I recently posted asking about running Dark Confidant in an Esper Midrange list.
I'm am currently testing this deck and wanted some advice.
Note - the sideboard is utterly not closed to finished, I just threw some stuff in to see how it goes from there.
Some general comments on why I'm trying out this build.
I feel that running Dark Confidant in a shell with 7 three-drops in the 75 might be something that can work really well in a Monastery Mentor shell. Because of this I made some general modifications to fit it. First, Serum Visions works quite well with him, making the 4th draw step of the game quite impactful as well as mitigating damage. The upped level of cantrips are also for this purpose.
The two Thought Scour work well with both Mentor, as well as Lingering Souls and Surgical Extraction post board. I felt I had enough discard and spot removal in the form of both Path to Exile and Fatal Push to protect Mentor so I added the one Negate to preemptively deal with Tron and Scapeshift/Titan Breach, even if the deck is more tap-out style. Snapcaster Mage is just a value engine, either doubling spot removal, discard or cantrips for card advantage as well as working well with Thought Scour . The one Blessed Alliance is there mainly for life gain, Hexproof matchups and Infect/Deathshadow.
I might shave something to add the 23rd land if I have problems.
This is just some general thinking, I haven't had the time to properly test it yet.
Any suggestions or constructed criticism would be welcome!
Thanks for your reply!
I'm actually a long time U/R delver player but wanted to change things up a bit.
I like the idea of Jace, but because of my local meta I have a lot of graveyard hate and bounce effects that really used to hinder me in the Grixis Delver list I used to run before Izzet.
Also, I have most agro decks, affinity and lots of burn.
From past experience playing Bob actually helped me against those decks more than not, just because I was running such a low curve, I would draw into the answers when needed and quickly seize control and turn the corner.
How would you recommend going about running a non delve, lower curve list with Bob?
Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to the deck and have gone through a lot of the posts here but wanted to ask about Dark Confidant.
What are the advantages / disadvantages to playing it in midrange? It seems to work quite well with cheap discard and removal as well as Monastary Mentor as a two of, as a finisher alongside manlands. Is it just because of Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
I have personally played this deck quite a bit with the Young pyromancer plan with gitaxian probe and it is more of an aggro-tempo style of play (which I like a lot).
But lately, with the rise of Grixis control and Nahiri Jeskai decks, I feel like it underperformed, I imagine that is why this deck has gone to a more controling route because with that version you lack the land drops needed and you can't afford to run powerful spells that cost more than 3 (you only have 2x kolaghan's command as the top of the curve).
I may be mistaken, but I feel like those are the reasons.
I think its just a matter of flavor, I will stick to the original 18 land plan, since I don't own the sideboard ancestral visions and I really fancy the aggro-tempo game style.
Hope I helped, if I am wrong (which is possible) please correct me, experienced players, I have been under a year with this deck, but on and off from control, twin, etc...
Thanks!
I'll try it out then.
I'm just trying to understand the logic of having no Gitaxian Probe's as they seem to only up consistency with both draws as well as delve creatures.
Hey everyone,
I've been lurking here for a pretty long time, and I've slowly accumulated the pieces needed to run the deck.
Right now I'm running the same list Kevin won the Dallas open with just because I haven't had any experience with it yet,
so I decided that going with a stock list and studying it might be better than start playing around.
While playing the deck for the past few weeks I've noticed a few things that I wanted to ask.
First, why don't most people run Gitaxian Probe?
While playing U/R delver I felt that it really helped consistency, and it seems excellent for the delve creatures.
Second, the 4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang that Kevin runs feels really clunky, drawing one while it's on the field feels kind of bad. What numbers do most of you run regarding him and Gurmag Angler?
Third, I saw Caleb's primer on Grixis Delver from a year back, a list which also had Gitaxian Probe, but also one Young Pyromancer,
why have people deviated from this?
Fourth and final, why don't we run any Spell Pierce? While playing U/R Delver I remember it doing a lot of work, helping with Affinity, turn one Æther Vial and more.
How does this work exactly? If a creature is bestowed on another creature and I blink the bestow creature, does it come back as an Aura, a Creature, or do I decide?
This looks like a cool idea for a casual deck, but it lacks synergy and the speed to keep up in standard in my opinion. Either way, I would love to see this deck blow someones mind away with a victory by a full hand of cards hehe.
Does anyone know if Artisan triggers twice?
For instance, Monastery Swiftspear is on the battlefield. I cast Artisan of Forms. I cast Retraction Helix targeting Artisan of Forms. Artisan triggers and becomes Monastery Swiftspear. Does she also get the trigger for prowess? Both triggers when spell is cast, not resolved. Does anyone know?
Thanks in advance
Turn 1 : Ornithopter,WR/UR pain land, spring leaf drum.
Turn 2 : draw chief engineer, play land, tap drum,thopter and both lands for Jeskai ascendency.
Turn 3 : tap two lands chief engineer, tap third land for retraction helix targetting thopter,tap engineer and drum add U floating,bounce drum with ornithopter,cast drum for the U floating, untap thopter and chief engineer, loot a card from hand, repeat process while playing free artifacts to untap creatures and discarding non free non essential cards,get an altar of the brood into play with free mana(from playing free artifacts and untapping for free) and just bounce and play drum and mill out the opponent.
What would you consider prioritizing?
The cards I currently own from what you mentioned are:
Play sets of: Brainstorm, Ponder, Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage and Monastery Mentor (which I really want to try, I've always wanted to play Mentor).
I have 1 copy of Jace, the Mind Sculptor and both Predict as well as Entreat the Angels are on their way via ebay.
I also own playsets of Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta.
I also own almost all the sideboard cards you've mentioned, except for Flusterstorm.
So basically out of the cheaper cards I'm missing:
Portent Swords to Plowshares Unexpectedly Absent and Terminus, which I intend to order as they are indeed inexpensive.
I'm trying to figure out what the best combination of cards would be the best to start playing the deck.
Would you recommend 1 Tundra, 4 Force of Will, and 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor?
Or would you value the third Jace higher than a different card?
Or even 2 Tundra and 4 Force of Will?
Thanks for all the help!
I'm a long time blue enthusiast in Modern, and legacy has always been slightly out of reach financially. However, my LGS is starting a small Legacy tournament, allowing for 15 proxies at first until people find their feet. I've tested and thoroughly enjoyed this version of Miracles, even more than the R.I.P. Top version that I had a proxy deck of.
My question to you guys is this -
What are the very basics that I need to run this deck?
I've decided not to go for the red splash due to Volcanic Island's price tag. But I have most of the deck already apart from the heavy hitters.
Would, starting out, buying 4 Force of Will's and 2 Tundra's be enough to enjoy the deck? I have 1 Jace and plan on trading into another. Would you suggest I run more basics or something like Glacial Fortress/Hallowed Fountain as people usually run more than two duels?
Thanks in advance!
Probably not, it's very difficult to play delver decks without Snapcaster Mage
I've asked this in the Midrange forum but haven't gotten many replies. What about forgoing the Delve creatures in favor for a Monastery Mentor and Dark Confidant card package?
Monastery Mentor goes very well with cantrips and counter magic and this helps make the deck more resilient to graveyard hate.
I'm currently testing this list (Esper Midrange) and have had a lot of success:
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Godless Shrine
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Watery Grave
4x Dark Confidant
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Snapcaster Mage
Instant (11)
1x Blessed Alliance
4x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
2x Thought Scour
Sorcery (15)
2x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
3x Blessed Alliance
2x Celestial Purge
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
Up until the Gitaxian Probe banning I played straight UR Delver and wanted to switch it up a bit so I tried Esper.
I'd love to see an Esper Delver deck list go up now.
So thinking about this list (the sideboard is completely experimental), maybe lowering the curve slightly with taking out Dark Confidant and a Lingering Souls / Monastery Mentor and the man-lands in favor for a 20-21 land count and adding 4 Delvers could be viable?
I chose to run no mainboard counter magic in this list as it tends to be more proactive and Jund-esque, but perhaps counter magic is the right route.
So basically, why not try to do with the Bob + Monastery Mentor package instead of Delve creatures? They both work well with a low Delver curve, create card advantage / incremental card advantage and work very well with cantrips.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Edit: Grammer and number mistake in deck-list.
I was wondering if this deck is even remotely playable without Tarmogoyf?
Replacing them with Dark Confidant or maybe a play set of Grim Flayers?
Thanks!
I recently posted asking about running Dark Confidant in an Esper Midrange list.
I'm am currently testing this deck and wanted some advice.
Note - the sideboard is utterly not closed to finished, I just threw some stuff in to see how it goes from there.
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Watery Grave
Creature (11)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Monastery Mentor
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Blessed Alliance
4x Fatal Push
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
2x Thought Scour
Sorcery (15)
2x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
3x Blessed Alliance
2x Celestial Purge
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Dispel
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
Some general comments on why I'm trying out this build.
I feel that running Dark Confidant in a shell with 7 three-drops in the 75 might be something that can work really well in a Monastery Mentor shell. Because of this I made some general modifications to fit it. First, Serum Visions works quite well with him, making the 4th draw step of the game quite impactful as well as mitigating damage. The upped level of cantrips are also for this purpose.
The two Thought Scour work well with both Mentor, as well as Lingering Souls and Surgical Extraction post board. I felt I had enough discard and spot removal in the form of both Path to Exile and Fatal Push to protect Mentor so I added the one Negate to preemptively deal with Tron and Scapeshift/Titan Breach, even if the deck is more tap-out style. Snapcaster Mage is just a value engine, either doubling spot removal, discard or cantrips for card advantage as well as working well with Thought Scour . The one Blessed Alliance is there mainly for life gain, Hexproof matchups and Infect/Deathshadow.
I might shave something to add the 23rd land if I have problems.
This is just some general thinking, I haven't had the time to properly test it yet.
Any suggestions or constructed criticism would be welcome!
I'm actually a long time U/R delver player but wanted to change things up a bit.
I like the idea of Jace, but because of my local meta I have a lot of graveyard hate and bounce effects that really used to hinder me in the Grixis Delver list I used to run before Izzet.
Also, I have most agro decks, affinity and lots of burn.
From past experience playing Bob actually helped me against those decks more than not, just because I was running such a low curve, I would draw into the answers when needed and quickly seize control and turn the corner.
How would you recommend going about running a non delve, lower curve list with Bob?
What are the advantages / disadvantages to playing it in midrange? It seems to work quite well with cheap discard and removal as well as Monastary Mentor as a two of, as a finisher alongside manlands. Is it just because of Tasigur, the Golden Fang?
Thanks!
Thanks!
I'll try it out then.
I'm just trying to understand the logic of having no Gitaxian Probe's as they seem to only up consistency with both draws as well as delve creatures.
I've been lurking here for a pretty long time, and I've slowly accumulated the pieces needed to run the deck.
Right now I'm running the same list Kevin won the Dallas open with just because I haven't had any experience with it yet,
so I decided that going with a stock list and studying it might be better than start playing around.
While playing the deck for the past few weeks I've noticed a few things that I wanted to ask.
First, why don't most people run Gitaxian Probe?
While playing U/R delver I felt that it really helped consistency, and it seems excellent for the delve creatures.
Second, the 4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang that Kevin runs feels really clunky, drawing one while it's on the field feels kind of bad. What numbers do most of you run regarding him and Gurmag Angler?
Third, I saw Caleb's primer on Grixis Delver from a year back, a list which also had Gitaxian Probe, but also one Young Pyromancer,
why have people deviated from this?
Fourth and final, why don't we run any Spell Pierce? While playing U/R Delver I remember it doing a lot of work, helping with Affinity, turn one Æther Vial and more.
Thanks in advance for all your help!
For instance, Monastery Swiftspear is on the battlefield. I cast Artisan of Forms. I cast Retraction Helix targeting Artisan of Forms. Artisan triggers and becomes Monastery Swiftspear. Does she also get the trigger for prowess? Both triggers when spell is cast, not resolved. Does anyone know?
Thanks in advance
I think I got it