Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth are my primary targets for Tooth and Nail entwined. Those combined with Maelstrom Wanderer almost always wins the game. I know there are better combos but this is not infinite and still gives my opponents a reasonable chance to interact with the combo. I play two other ultra competitive decks that are as brutal as the ban list will allow.
It has been a while since I played Birthing Pod in the deck. I moved away from a more creature centric build to spell based. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger was in the deck at that time.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is a pet card. The draw four is relevant as is the annihilator four. This is one holdover from when I played cards that could not cascade. Insurrection was the final causality of this move. Did you ever play Insurrection? My experience was over 50% of the time this spell resolved the game was over.
Expropriate was being considered by Ambivalent Duck before he fell off the grid. I would consider Time Stretch (Mr Coupon's list) one of those cards that attempts to win the game on the spot. What do you think of "finishing" cards in the deck? What would you recommend if you played one?
Ambivalent Duck was also considering Selvala's Stampede. Have you tested this card?
Beguiler of Wills is a much better option in your deck. You play a lot more creatures several of which are low cost mana dorks.
Thanks for the input Akroma44. Pathbreaker Ibex and Scourge of the Throne are in the deck. I was interested if others were having success with it. I play all the extra turn cards that are seven mana or less. Pathbreaker Ibex with just Wanderer and one extra turn effect typically kills one opponent. Scourge of the Throne has the potential to kill with Avenger of Zendikar, Craterhoof Behemoth, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Pathbreaker Ibex.
Timespiral was in the deck in the beginning. I cut it because our opponents are more likely to unload their hands quicker than us. Our average mana cost per card is card is high.
Rishkar's Expertise seems like it would have the potential to miss fire with cascade and would really only fulfill it's potential with Maelstrom on the field. You may be playing more creatures in general than me and also those with higher power.
Seasons Past is a card that I first saw recommended on Ambivalent Duck's thread. Have the times you cast it during cascade been profitable?
Mr Coupon, I cut Brainstorm a long time ago (2014). It was such a bad cascade and was particularly brutal if it was the second. I have kept Scroll Rack because unlike Brainstorm it could be used repeatedly. I see you play a plethora of spells that draw you cards so you may not need it.
Blatant Thievery has been very effective particularly stealing commanders in decks which fold without them. Absent of this line of play the tempo gained, mana producing artifacts for example, compared against the tempo lost in most cases gives us a decisive advantage.
I run Wildfire but not its bigger brother Destructive Force which is dead outside of cascade. I only mention this because I have seen several list containing Destructive Force.
I really like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Teferi, Temporal Archmage in this deck. I actually think Jace's ability to bounce Wanderer back to our hand to be more devastating than the free brainstorm.
I use Tooth and Nail to get Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth. Avenger of Zendikar is a decent cascade and is made better by the land ramp package we run. I know this is not the most efficient win condition as spot removal on Wanderer prevents you from swinging out with the buffed plants. I am ok with that. I understand that this is a tier 2 or 2.5 deck.
One of the reasons I like this deck is it occupies a spot in my collection. I have fully optimized Breakfast Hulk and Tazri combo decks. Your deck allows me to play a host of decks that are not ultra fast and yet also too strong for a casual meta.
Mr Coupon, I hope you update your list. No one is doing Maelstrom right now. This thread could be THE spot to get all the lastest Wanderer tech and updates.
I know you are not actively updating this list. I did wonder if you would recommend running every extra turn effect that costs seven or less mana to cast?
Gelf, my list is close enough to your old list that your three cuts would also be mine. So, of the three cards I mentioned you would just add Trophy, Mage?
Gelf, any guidance on which cards to remove for Walking Ballista, Trophy Mage and Rishkar, Peema Renegade? Am I correct that these are the only definite additions?
Thanks Dan. I was going to point out something even before seeing the HD Thras/Tymna deck. Is Deathrite Shaman your only answer to graveyard based decks? It seems like the Hermit Druid build could really be hampered by the plethera of graveyard hate. Am I overstating the case?
I was minutes away from asking (yet) another question. I read the debate on the Reddit competitive edh forum concerning the best build for Thrasios. Here is the opening shot as a point of context:
"I tested both the high tide version and the angel one and neither tops the paradox/bomberman version made by Librudder. The high tide version felt like a worse ANDD Zur, while the angel one is great for one session - after that people just know what to expect and disrupt it often."
You and Librudder seemed to take the high road. Did you test any of these builds? You must believe your build is the best (as do I). If I asked you to state your case, what would you say? Feel free to ignore this question as you just went through your tests. I was aware of the other lists before I started posting on your thread.
Did you decide on Mystic Remora? I have been asking Skuloth about its exclusion from his Zur Doomsday list.
I really like the latest deck tech. Is this sweeps week for MTG deck videos? Sigi is bringing out his number one star. How are the tests going?
Was the deck tech filmed before February 2nd? The reason I ask is that was the date you removed Mind's Deaire. It appears in the deck tech in the bad opening hand portion.
Is Leovold your go to answer for stax effects? It seemed that way from the video. What circumstances if any would you tutor for Leovold?
Dan, you are a baller and shot caller. You tell those losers which deck you are going to play and.that is it.
Well, I was way off in my speculation on the most frequent kill cards. I thought storm would be bringing up the rear.
Hurkyl's Recall and Turnabout were going to be my suggested test cuts.
Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth are my primary targets for Tooth and Nail entwined. Those combined with Maelstrom Wanderer almost always wins the game. I know there are better combos but this is not infinite and still gives my opponents a reasonable chance to interact with the combo. I play two other ultra competitive decks that are as brutal as the ban list will allow.
It has been a while since I played Birthing Pod in the deck. I moved away from a more creature centric build to spell based. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger was in the deck at that time.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is a pet card. The draw four is relevant as is the annihilator four. This is one holdover from when I played cards that could not cascade. Insurrection was the final causality of this move. Did you ever play Insurrection? My experience was over 50% of the time this spell resolved the game was over.
Expropriate was being considered by Ambivalent Duck before he fell off the grid. I would consider Time Stretch (Mr Coupon's list) one of those cards that attempts to win the game on the spot. What do you think of "finishing" cards in the deck? What would you recommend if you played one?
Ambivalent Duck was also considering Selvala's Stampede. Have you tested this card?
Beguiler of Wills is a much better option in your deck. You play a lot more creatures several of which are low cost mana dorks.
Timespiral was in the deck in the beginning. I cut it because our opponents are more likely to unload their hands quicker than us. Our average mana cost per card is card is high.
Rishkar's Expertise seems like it would have the potential to miss fire with cascade and would really only fulfill it's potential with Maelstrom on the field. You may be playing more creatures in general than me and also those with higher power.
Seasons Past is a card that I first saw recommended on Ambivalent Duck's thread. Have the times you cast it during cascade been profitable?
I know Knowledge Exploitation is played in almost every competitive list.
Blatant Thievery has been very effective particularly stealing commanders in decks which fold without them. Absent of this line of play the tempo gained, mana producing artifacts for example, compared against the tempo lost in most cases gives us a decisive advantage.
I run Wildfire but not its bigger brother Destructive Force which is dead outside of cascade. I only mention this because I have seen several list containing Destructive Force.
I am running all the extra turn cards you are with the addition of Capture of Jingzhou and Part the Waterveil. What do you think about this?
Have you ever experimented with Bloodmoon?
I really like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Teferi, Temporal Archmage in this deck. I actually think Jace's ability to bounce Wanderer back to our hand to be more devastating than the free brainstorm.
What cards are you planning on testing?
One of the reasons I like this deck is it occupies a spot in my collection. I have fully optimized Breakfast Hulk and Tazri combo decks. Your deck allows me to play a host of decks that are not ultra fast and yet also too strong for a casual meta.
Mr Coupon, I hope you update your list. No one is doing Maelstrom right now. This thread could be THE spot to get all the lastest Wanderer tech and updates.
"I tested both the high tide version and the angel one and neither tops the paradox/bomberman version made by Librudder. The high tide version felt like a worse ANDD Zur, while the angel one is great for one session - after that people just know what to expect and disrupt it often."
You and Librudder seemed to take the high road. Did you test any of these builds? You must believe your build is the best (as do I). If I asked you to state your case, what would you say? Feel free to ignore this question as you just went through your tests. I was aware of the other lists before I started posting on your thread.
Did you decide on Mystic Remora? I have been asking Skuloth about its exclusion from his Zur Doomsday list.
Was the deck tech filmed before February 2nd? The reason I ask is that was the date you removed Mind's Deaire. It appears in the deck tech in the bad opening hand portion.
Is Leovold your go to answer for stax effects? It seemed that way from the video. What circumstances if any would you tutor for Leovold?
Well, I was way off in my speculation on the most frequent kill cards. I thought storm would be bringing up the rear.
Hurkyl's Recall and Turnabout were going to be my suggested test cuts.