I got two games in tonight in a three man pod and went 1-1. Winter Orb won me the game as I was low on life and my opponent had Hatred.
One of my friends could not believe I was not playing Mirage Mirror. I cut it for Avarice Totem. He wanted me to cut Oblivion Sower. What are your thoughts on this?
I think you are going to be right about Paradox Engine. I did not cast it but I can see major limitations with it in this deck.
I had to edit this section on Endbringer. I read over your comments on this thread and on other threads. You want to be able to unload your hand and have said you wanted to limit the 6+ cards.
I wanted to get all the changes with which I am experimenting organized. Plus, you will have a record of my failures when these changes prove to be wrong.
Please alert me if you would have cut a different card than the ones I cut.
1.Wastes -> Wasteland You said this is in your present version of the deck.
2. Wastes -> Storm Cauldron I think we are both playing with 34 mana producing lands. You recommended this and Winter Orb (listed below).
4. Hangerback Walker -> Torpor Orb I looked at a multitude of lists and you were the only one playing Hangerback Walker. That in and of itself is not damning. The issue is I could not see how Hangerback fits into the overall strategy of your deck. Ramp, removal, and card draw in that order seem to be the priorities for the deck. This is based on the number of cards of each category in the deck. All the creatures you are playing do at least one of these three things with the exception of Silent Arbiter and Hangerback Walker.
7. Endbringer -> Paradox Engine. I am the least confident with this change but I risk next to nothing as this card is on your chopping block.
8. Wayfarer's Bauble -> Mox Opal. This fit the addition of Winter Orb, Storm Cauldron and Paradox Engine.
9. Scrabbling Claws -> Semblance Anvil I am going to see how the deck functions with two grave hate cards. This one piqued your interest. That in and of itself warrants testing the card.
How effective has Tangle Wire been for you? Ward of Bones is a card that seems interesting. The absence of a Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale has caused me to look into alternate means to hinder my opponents abilities to mass creatures.
I did slot in Torpor Orb. I believe I cut one of the three graveyard hate pieces.
Could Wayfarer's Bauble be cut for Mox Opal? The addition of Winter Orb and Storm Cauldron lessen the benefit of Wayfarer's Bauble while increasing the value of Mox Opal. Additionally, Paradox Engine gets another free untap with Mox Opal.
I am guessing Doubling Cube may be deemed by you to be another Blinkmoth Urn.
If you were to add two more mana producing artifacts what would they be? I am looking at Sisay's Ring and Thought Vessel.
How often from your experience was Kozilek countered? I was thinking of a card that is used in competitive Prossh decks, Defense Grid. This would not be as asymmetrical as Torpor Orb as it taxes any spells cast utilizing Winding Canyons and Vedalken Orrery. Of course, your deck plays two instants. Warping Wail's second mode, countering sorcery spells, would be only effect that would definitely in practice be taxed.
I may slot in Paradox Engine for Endbringer. Paradox Engine probably will perform how you predict. I really am not risking much testing it as Endbringer is your next most likely cut.
Thanks for the response and insight into the deck. I really enjoy discussing cards as you learn the theory behind the deck.
Torpor Orb may be one of those cards that in theory seems good. The reasoning being it has almost zero effect, outside of Solemn Simulacrun, on us and has the potential to stall opponents decks. I need to evaluate all suggestions based on the effect it will have with the speed of the deck.
The next two questions concern cards that have the potential to make the deck faster. I saw where you mentioned Paradox Engine. Did you ever get a chance to test it?
ISBPathfinder, has Swiftfoot Boots ever been considered for the deck?
You are playing 35 mana producing lands. How comfortable are you with this number? I am playing Mishra's Workshop in place of Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale. Would you be opposed to cutting a Wastes in order to open up a flex spot, maybe for Swiftfoot Boots? What would you add if a spot opened?
Would you be opposed to running Wasteland in the place of a Wastes?
I saw that the original version of the deck played Torpor Orb. I could be mistaken but I did not see a single creature you are playing that has an etb?
Thanks brother, I hope you continue to update this thread. You are one of the deck builders I follow.
I was not clear in my comments concerning this deck and combo. I would not build this deck if combo was one of the primary win-cons. I would not be able to play it in my primary group and I would have the worst deck at the cedh table. A strong, and combo absent win-con deck is perfect. I am ordering the cards I do not own today.
Thanks for getting back to me so quick. Am I correct that you do not utilize Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith to generate infinite mana? I hope you are not as Judah's Kozilek deck utilizes this combo. This to me is by far the greatest flaw with Kozilek. I listed Judah's Kozilek but I checked several others and all had the combo.
I have two play groups. One does not utilize combo. The other plays the top tier cedh decks in the format. Teferi, Breakfast Hulk, Foodchain Tazri, Arcum, and Breya are some of the decks represented. Even a combo based Kozilek deck can not compete against these decks.
I have almost all the cards on your list including a Mishra's Worshop and a Bazzar of Bagdad. I do not have the Tabernacle. That is one of the factors that drew me to your list. The other is that I know from playing your Markov list that you can build high functioning decks.
What would you cut for Winter Orb? Are there any other changes to the decklist?
ISBPathfinder, I have been following your Edgar Markov thread. I saw where you referenced this deck and it's power level. Could you clarify where it resides on the power scale? Is it more powerful than your Edgar deck? Do you still think it is the best colorless commander?
This thread is dead along with Mr Coupon's All Who Wander Are Not Lost Maelstrom thread. Does anyone know where there is active competitive Wanderer discussion?
I know Maelstrom is at best a tier two deck. I think it still has a place at the top end of casual decks.
Both fit into what I want to do with this deck. Arcanis the Omnipotent provides the fuel for the Tooth and Nail combo and Food Chain path to victory of Mr Coupon's deck.
My deck is already at or near the top of the semi casual decks at the shop. MrCoupon's deck and strategy are superior to mine. I think too much of a move toward his strategy would lead to exclusively winning with combo and Food Chain. That would be too much for my play group.
Would you be willing to help me pick a replacement?
Sisay's Ring, Avarice Totem, Storage Matrix, Ward of Bones, Scrabbling Claws, Cloud Key, Thought Vessel and Endbringer are all options?
If I cut Torpor Orb what would you add from the list above?
I went 2-1 tonight. Winter Orb continues to shine. A Maze of Ith and a Mirage Mirror copying the Maze of Ith kept me from winning one game where I had Winter Orb and Icy Manipulator.
How is Avarice Totem performing?
I find I need all the removal this deck offers.
One of my friends could not believe I was not playing Mirage Mirror. I cut it for Avarice Totem. He wanted me to cut Oblivion Sower. What are your thoughts on this?
Avarice Totem -> Mirage Mirror
Wastes -> Inkmoth Nexus. What do you think about adding a possible emergency flying blocker?
How well has Vedalken Orrery performed?
I think you are going to be right about Paradox Engine. I did not cast it but I can see major limitations with it in this deck.
I had to edit this section on Endbringer. I read over your comments on this thread and on other threads. You want to be able to unload your hand and have said you wanted to limit the 6+ cards.
Please alert me if you would have cut a different card than the ones I cut.
1.Wastes -> Wasteland You said this is in your present version of the deck.
2. Wastes -> Storm Cauldron I think we are both playing with 34 mana producing lands. You recommended this and Winter Orb (listed below).
3. Wastes -> Hall of the Bandit Lord You said this is in your present version of the deck.
4. Hangerback Walker -> Torpor Orb I looked at a multitude of lists and you were the only one playing Hangerback Walker. That in and of itself is not damning. The issue is I could not see how Hangerback fits into the overall strategy of your deck. Ramp, removal, and card draw in that order seem to be the priorities for the deck. This is based on the number of cards of each category in the deck. All the creatures you are playing do at least one of these three things with the exception of Silent Arbiter and Hangerback Walker.
5. Solemn Simulacrum -> Winter Orb I had cut Burnished Hart then realized it interacted with Rings of Brighthearth and was not hindered by Torpor Orb.
6. Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale (don't own) -> Mishra's Workshop.
7. Endbringer -> Paradox Engine. I am the least confident with this change but I risk next to nothing as this card is on your chopping block.
8. Wayfarer's Bauble -> Mox Opal. This fit the addition of Winter Orb, Storm Cauldron and Paradox Engine.
9. Scrabbling Claws -> Semblance Anvil I am going to see how the deck functions with two grave hate cards. This one piqued your interest. That in and of itself warrants testing the card.
How effective has Tangle Wire been for you? Ward of Bones is a card that seems interesting. The absence of a Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale has caused me to look into alternate means to hinder my opponents abilities to mass creatures.
I did slot in Torpor Orb. I believe I cut one of the three graveyard hate pieces.
Mana Web is on my short list of cards to test provided that Winter Orb and Storm Cauldron prove effective.
Mox Opal
Doubling Cube
Scorched Ruins
Zhalfirin Void
Mage-ring Network
Tower of the Magistrate
Hall of the Bandit Lord
Semblance Anvil
Thought Vessel
Defense Grid
Could Wayfarer's Bauble be cut for Mox Opal? The addition of Winter Orb and Storm Cauldron lessen the benefit of Wayfarer's Bauble while increasing the value of Mox Opal. Additionally, Paradox Engine gets another free untap with Mox Opal.
I am guessing Doubling Cube may be deemed by you to be another Blinkmoth Urn.
If you were to add two more mana producing artifacts what would they be? I am looking at Sisay's Ring and Thought Vessel.
I saw a Kozilek list that was heavy into stax (Mana Web, Sphere of Resistence, Winter Orb, Storage Matrix). The list played defense grid and Semblance Anvil. Have you experimented with Senblance Anvil?
How often from your experience was Kozilek countered? I was thinking of a card that is used in competitive Prossh decks, Defense Grid. This would not be as asymmetrical as Torpor Orb as it taxes any spells cast utilizing Winding Canyons and Vedalken Orrery. Of course, your deck plays two instants. Warping Wail's second mode, countering sorcery spells, would be only effect that would definitely in practice be taxed.
Changes:
Wastes -> Wasteland
Wastes -> Storm Cauldron
Burnished Heart -> Winter Orb
Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale (don't own) -> Mishra's Workshop
I may slot in Paradox Engine for
Endbringer. Paradox Engine probably will perform how you predict. I really am not risking much testing it as Endbringer is your next most likely cut.
Torpor Orb may be one of those cards that in theory seems good. The reasoning being it has almost zero effect, outside of Solemn Simulacrun, on us and has the potential to stall opponents decks. I need to evaluate all suggestions based on the effect it will have with the speed of the deck.
The next two questions concern cards that have the potential to make the deck faster. I saw where you mentioned Paradox Engine. Did you ever get a chance to test it?
Was Krark-Clan Ironwork ever tested? This may be an odd suggestion.
Grafdigger's Cage seems like it would be an upgrade to the graveyard hate cards you are playing.
How valuable has Scour from Existence been? It has been heavily criticized by another Kozilek deck creator.
You are playing 35 mana producing lands. How comfortable are you with this number? I am playing Mishra's Workshop in place of Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale. Would you be opposed to cutting a Wastes in order to open up a flex spot, maybe for Swiftfoot Boots? What would you add if a spot opened?
Would you be opposed to running Wasteland in the place of a Wastes?
I saw that the original version of the deck played Torpor Orb. I could be mistaken but I did not see a single creature you are playing that has an etb?
I was not clear in my comments concerning this deck and combo. I would not build this deck if combo was one of the primary win-cons. I would not be able to play it in my primary group and I would have the worst deck at the cedh table. A strong, and combo absent win-con deck is perfect. I am ordering the cards I do not own today.
I have two play groups. One does not utilize combo. The other plays the top tier cedh decks in the format. Teferi, Breakfast Hulk, Foodchain Tazri, Arcum, and Breya are some of the decks represented. Even a combo based Kozilek deck can not compete against these decks.
I have almost all the cards on your list including a Mishra's Worshop and a Bazzar of Bagdad. I do not have the Tabernacle. That is one of the factors that drew me to your list. The other is that I know from playing your Markov list that you can build high functioning decks.
What would you cut for Winter Orb? Are there any other changes to the decklist?
Do you know of a current Maelstrom Wanderer forum?
I know Maelstrom is at best a tier two deck. I think it still has a place at the top end of casual decks.
Akrima44, I cut Stolen Identity for Arcanis the Omnipotent. Etali, Primal Storm has been good but not great. He definitely puts fear into opponents when he swings with haste (Wanderer).
Both fit into what I want to do with this deck. Arcanis the Omnipotent provides the fuel for the Tooth and Nail combo and Food Chain path to victory of Mr Coupon's deck.
Etali, Primal Storm along with my Tooth and Nail combo of Avenger of Zendikar/Craterhoof Behemoth, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Pathbreaker Ibex, Scourge of the Throne, and Malignus power my alternate win con of combat damage/Commander kills.
My deck is already at or near the top of the semi casual decks at the shop. MrCoupon's deck and strategy are superior to mine. I think too much of a move toward his strategy would lead to exclusively winning with combo and Food Chain. That would be too much for my play group.