I'm not going to mainboard 3-4 wasteland stranglers just for AV. Siege Rhino is the best 4 drop BGx creature in modern, why wouldn't you use him?! A 4/5 trampling lightning helix, there's a reason even Kalitas isn't bothered with
I'm curious what you guys think, should the deck run 3x Rhinos and 2x Kitchen Finks, or 4x Rhinos? I wish we could fit Dark Confidant here. Tasigur would probably have to be cut though. This deck also sucks in the infect matchup, compared to Jund. Everyone at the Jund thread is convinced the deck will be good to run, but if the meta slows down, this is definitely the better deck, am I right?!
Yeah strangler isn't worth it. If you're really concerned about AV play Chalice of the Void in the side, it's good against a lot of matchups. Maybe AV will prove to be an issue vs us, otoh Finks, Lingering Souls, Tasigur and Liliana can generate so much value vs control I don't think the matchup will be as bad as vs Tron for example.
I run 3 Rhino and 2 Finks main. I found multiple rhino's clogging up your opener was often a mulligan. 2-3 kitchen finks main are needed to keep the burn matchup positive.
If the meta slows down Junk is definitely better than Jund due to the lingering souls. Junk also has the better sideboard vs Thopter/Sword combo (Stony Silence). Jund is better in a faster meta because it has reach, better early removal and a faster/less painful manabase.
BGu might be interesting to try but it's such a dog to burn and infect I wouldn't risk playing it in a larger tourney atm.
If AV and ThopterSword make a big impact on the metagame (this is still a big IF in my opinion), what are thoughts on trying to make Bob work in the deck? I am considering switching over from Jund, since Stony Silence just seems so good right now and Abzan also tends to be favored in grind-out situations. If we are able to run Bob along with a slightly pruned average CMC, along with our incidental lifegain, his constant card advantage could be a big deal against AV decks. Sprinkle in some Painful Truths and Thrun in the sideboard and don't think we are all that far behind in the value game.
Of course I've never played the deck and certainly never tried to make a Bob version work, so some informed opinions would be nice.
I have played Bob versions before and did very well with them. For me the main advantages were that it's great in a very linear (bring on the infect, elves,...) and midrangy meta's (without a lot of burn).
It needs some minor tweaks: more discard, less tasigur and no high CMC stuff in the sideboard.
The major downsides are burn and burn-ish matchups (like zoo) and it gives your opponent good targets for lightning bolt (which is otherwise quite poor vs us).
Atm I don't think the upsides outweigh the downsides.
I'm afraid of what Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is going to do in price now. It doesn't flash back Ancestral Vision, but 1) they both support similar archetypes, and 2) JVP is a great (and on-color) way of discarding any AVs you don't want to see later on.
Jace will be $100+ by the summer. Rising Modern demand plus exploding Standard relevance (even beyond his old relevance) will drive him there. If you want them for the summer, buy now.
This really depends on whether there will he will be part of the best standard deck(s) or not. Now that Khans rotate out standard decks can't play all the colors and all the good stuff: it'll be 2 colors. This will almost certainly drop his standard demand.
I understand that it's much different in Legacy. You can cascade into it, put it back in the library with brainstorm, and pitch it to force. Modern can't do any of those things.
But modern can certainly loot. I expect a shell with 4 AV to also have 4 flip jace. If in red you can also use izzet charm and that loot land. There are certainly ways to mitigate the "dead" card, aside from the fact that actually suspending it after t2 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
I was actually agreeing with you, vs a lot of decks it's still great to suspend T2. It just depends on how fast the meta is.
I can say from experience that drawing an ancestral visions at any point after like t2 feels REALLY bad.
and I can say from experience that it's typically just fine.
Which one of us is right? The world may never know...
I also play some shardless in Legacy. In grindy games it's usually great (and once it resolves vs the likes of legacy Jund it's usually game over as well), vs combo it just feeds the force.
Does Anguished Unmaking deserve a slot in our 75? This is the only card from this new set that I think may be playable. I'm thinking 1-1 split with Maelstrom Pulse?
It could have its place in the sideboard, but as long as hyperaggressive decks like affinity, elves, merforlk and most notably burn rear their ugly heads everywhere I don't think it's maindeckable.
Yes the Eldrazi narrowed deck selection, but the deck was not unbeatable.
I watched guys that grind the PT, have PT points and are very good deck builders and players build decks using cards some would never think of using against the Eldrazi and have a lopsided positive match up like 60-40, 65-35, and refuse to take those decks to high level events because they were pissed at what Wotc did to the format.
So we will see how things play out.
Well, anyone could build decks like that. Problem is you now are a dog to just about every other deck out there. If Eldrazi is 40 pct there's still 60 pct left to beat you know...
So is it a good time to buy Archangel Avacyn or should I wait after release? I kinda feel it's the type of card that will see a lot of play in Standard which will make it go up in price leaving me in a silly position for not grabbing the couple of copies I need.
If you don't need it right away wait until the last week the set is drafted. If you wanr to pick it up anywhere in the future wait until rotation.
As a general rule of thumb cards are most expensive before the release, then drop down until the set is no longer draffed and then jojo or fade away until they rotate out.
My rule of thumb after playing the prelease is sell anything with value I've opened right away.
Has anyone else tried out Duskwatch Recruiter yet. I've been trying it and so far it's great vs the grindy decks we sometimes struggle against. It's best in builds with vial IMO.
I'm having problems sideboarding against Abzan CoCo, I usually take out LOTV because BOP and Finks blanks her -2. I put in Engineered Explosives, Fulminator Mage (to answer Gavony Township), Damnation and Nihil Spellbomb for GY hate. Any tips on this matchup?
Grafdigger's Cage completely hoses them Anafenza, the Foremost: there are so many abzan company decks in my meta that I mainboard this Scavenging Ooze can take over the game quickly
and to a lesser extent: Surgical Extraction
Anything that can kill multiple creatures is great: engineered explosives, damnation, golgari charm.
Nihil Spellbomb is not great vs them imo as they can just search a qasali and force you to pop it.
I usually take out the discard spells as the game is likely to go long. Liliana can be great when backed up with some hate (I usually leave in 2). Lingering souls usually aren't all that great but I still leqve some in as I don't have enough from the sideboard coming in..
In general, keep them off the combo and then beat down with your superior creatures. Keep your land destruction for township.
I, as probably many, strongly disagree with tenzoku's thesis. I assume TiTi will be very, very strong in different shells. It blocks early threats, and you don't have to pay additional mana or something to make it work. Just cast four spells. Besides that, it's not only a 7/8 (despite staying a 2-mana-investment, of course), it wipes the whole board as well. I am really looking forward to play this card.
From my tests (in modern) so far:
It's horrible in a tempo deck because it takes too long for it start generating damage. I played against delver decks that used it quite often on XMage, often it just sat there while they were holding a hand of counterspells and it could not interact with my board so I just played nothing and kept hitting them for a few every turn, this also allowed me to reach the lategame more easily (I played midrange) where my better spells just trump the tempo deck. I never lost to a TiTi based tempo deck in 6-ish matches.
It's very meh in control because it doesn't generate immediate value (like wall of omens or kitchen finks) and turns on your opponent's spot removal. Normally Abrupt Decay is very bad against control, but if they play TiTi it gets turned on. I don't think control in modern wants this. Maybe from the sideboard this can do some work here as the slowness and bad topdeck argument hurt the least in control decks.
I tried it in midrange and I think it could possibly work there but it is very hard to get a critical mass of spells in midrange (and if you do they're probably token generators which are a nonbo). The fact that it is a terrible topdeck is also very bad for midrange. Maybe grixis midrange can make it happen, but that would mean they probably move away from delve threats and parents Nalaar. I'm not sure whether that is worth it (I'm no expert on the deck).
this set so far is disappointing... i count maybe 2 to 3 cards that has a slight chance of seeing some play... the best modern cards we got from the year came from one tribe and basically one set and may or may not even be playable in a few weeks...
i can understand depowering after sets like khans/dtk.. but there has been some abysmal cards which makes me so glad that i am not playing standard..
For real? Some players will never be happy. This set isn't powered down AT ALL, it's just that many of the cards don't directly slot into modern decks without some thinking.
It's definitely less powerful than KTK. That doesn't mean it's necessarily unplayable in Modern (which, you are right, some people are inaccurately suggesting). That said, it's disingenuous to say SOI and KTK are on the same power level. And that's okay! A lot of people think Modern playability starts at KTK/RTR levels and ends at Theros. There's a lot of middle ground and SOI is decently-positioned in that middle.
Ummm SoI is WAYYYYY more powered than Khans.
In fact, it's the most powered expansion since original Innistrad IMO. Traverse the Underwald is extremely good and will become a staple in delirium decks (demonic tutor for 1 mana is usually great, yep), TITI I'm still on the fence, but has enormous potential, Rattlechains will enable a new archetype that can flash Geists EOT, Madness Vampires are extremely pushed and will make for a tier 2 deck most probably... etc etc
This set is sick, period.
SoI looks great but let's be real here.
Khans added the 5 allied fetches which are played in I'm guessing like 70 pct of all modern decks.
Khans had 2 spells banned in Modern and Legacy, and IIRC restricted in Vintage!!!
And on top of that it has format staples like Monastery Swiftspear and Siege Rhino + a lot of fringe stuff that occasionally pops up left and right.
Khans had cards that slotted right into existing tier decks and made them a lot better. The best cards in SoI need to have a new deck built around them (TiTi, Traverse the Ulvenwald) and it remains to be seen what tier they'll be (TiTi doesn't cut it in my testing). This makes SoI the more interesting set IMO, but probably nowhere near as powerful as Khans was. I don't think any card from SoI will be banned within 6 months.
i don't understand the discard argument, Willy still plays the usual 6, so you are as likely to draw and play one of them turn 1
in the late game you dont care to much about oath not giving you discard, the only cards you care are removal and creatures, oath gives you creatures naturaly and can give you removal in the form of liliana or shriekmaw
I wasn't a believer of Oath but this makes sense. if it's putting results then it must be good. in order for oath to be effective, I think we need removal on a stick. like big game hunter, fiend hunter. sideboard cards will be more effective because you can dig for them faster. example (fulminator mage and kitchen finks).if you replace stony silence with kataki, we'll have a more reliable hate.
I was actually going to ask what people thought about his 1/1 split between Stony Silence and Kataki. If we are dedicating 2 slots to Stony Silence, what is the downside of instead splitting the 2 slots to how Edel did? Drawing the second Stony Silence is a dead card, while drawing a Kataki instead would at least give us a beater as well as a halfwrath in most cases. Is EOT Galvanic Blast Kataki that devastating? Do affinity lists still run Kataki?
On your last part, you are right. Oath requires some tweaking since Edel also runs Shriekmaw main.
You have a point that Galvanic EOT on Kataki is bad.
I've watched a few Edel videos and read several articles of his and he's a major proponent of diversifying his hate.
I know he does this especially with GY hate.
It could be that he's also mixing up his Affinity hate as well. Other then that, I'd prefer more copies of Stony for less variance.
Does Affinity even play Galvanic Blast these days? They are the control deck vs Eldrazi so might prefer cards like Toughtcast.
He lost a close 3 game match against Lantern at the top 8
He says that Oath of Nissa is amazing. With the low land count, card selection and silver bullets it feels like playing legacy
I am really looking forward to his article a out Oath of Nissa. I really am not sold on it. As a T1 play, wouldnt we rather play a discard spell? Then, top decking an Oath would seem problematic when you really want a removal spell. Maybe Ill goldfish his list a little bit just to see but on paper, the Oath just seems too clunky.
Why would you play Oath T1 if you have another play to make? As long as you have other meaningful plays to make you don't play oath. The longer you can delay playing it the more useful it is as then you know better what you'll need: liliana, creature or land and which creature. That said, I'm not sold on Oath either but the discard t1 argument is not the reason IMO.
Yeah strangler isn't worth it. If you're really concerned about AV play Chalice of the Void in the side, it's good against a lot of matchups. Maybe AV will prove to be an issue vs us, otoh Finks, Lingering Souls, Tasigur and Liliana can generate so much value vs control I don't think the matchup will be as bad as vs Tron for example.
I run 3 Rhino and 2 Finks main. I found multiple rhino's clogging up your opener was often a mulligan. 2-3 kitchen finks main are needed to keep the burn matchup positive.
If the meta slows down Junk is definitely better than Jund due to the lingering souls. Junk also has the better sideboard vs Thopter/Sword combo (Stony Silence). Jund is better in a faster meta because it has reach, better early removal and a faster/less painful manabase.
BGu might be interesting to try but it's such a dog to burn and infect I wouldn't risk playing it in a larger tourney atm.
I have played Bob versions before and did very well with them. For me the main advantages were that it's great in a very linear (bring on the infect, elves,...) and midrangy meta's (without a lot of burn).
It needs some minor tweaks: more discard, less tasigur and no high CMC stuff in the sideboard.
The major downsides are burn and burn-ish matchups (like zoo) and it gives your opponent good targets for lightning bolt (which is otherwise quite poor vs us).
Atm I don't think the upsides outweigh the downsides.
This really depends on whether there will he will be part of the best standard deck(s) or not. Now that Khans rotate out standard decks can't play all the colors and all the good stuff: it'll be 2 colors. This will almost certainly drop his standard demand.
I was actually agreeing with you, vs a lot of decks it's still great to suspend T2. It just depends on how fast the meta is.
I also play some shardless in Legacy. In grindy games it's usually great (and once it resolves vs the likes of legacy Jund it's usually game over as well), vs combo it just feeds the force.
Also very happy with the eye ban.
It could have its place in the sideboard, but as long as hyperaggressive decks like affinity, elves, merforlk and most notably burn rear their ugly heads everywhere I don't think it's maindeckable.
Well, anyone could build decks like that. Problem is you now are a dog to just about every other deck out there. If Eldrazi is 40 pct there's still 60 pct left to beat you know...
If you don't need it right away wait until the last week the set is drafted. If you wanr to pick it up anywhere in the future wait until rotation.
As a general rule of thumb cards are most expensive before the release, then drop down until the set is no longer draffed and then jojo or fade away until they rotate out.
My rule of thumb after playing the prelease is sell anything with value I've opened right away.
Grafdigger's Cage completely hoses them
Anafenza, the Foremost: there are so many abzan company decks in my meta that I mainboard this
Scavenging Ooze can take over the game quickly
and to a lesser extent:
Surgical Extraction
Anything that can kill multiple creatures is great: engineered explosives, damnation, golgari charm.
Nihil Spellbomb is not great vs them imo as they can just search a qasali and force you to pop it.
I usually take out the discard spells as the game is likely to go long. Liliana can be great when backed up with some hate (I usually leave in 2). Lingering souls usually aren't all that great but I still leqve some in as I don't have enough from the sideboard coming in..
In general, keep them off the combo and then beat down with your superior creatures. Keep your land destruction for township.
From my tests (in modern) so far:
It's horrible in a tempo deck because it takes too long for it start generating damage. I played against delver decks that used it quite often on XMage, often it just sat there while they were holding a hand of counterspells and it could not interact with my board so I just played nothing and kept hitting them for a few every turn, this also allowed me to reach the lategame more easily (I played midrange) where my better spells just trump the tempo deck. I never lost to a TiTi based tempo deck in 6-ish matches.
It's very meh in control because it doesn't generate immediate value (like wall of omens or kitchen finks) and turns on your opponent's spot removal. Normally Abrupt Decay is very bad against control, but if they play TiTi it gets turned on. I don't think control in modern wants this. Maybe from the sideboard this can do some work here as the slowness and bad topdeck argument hurt the least in control decks.
I tried it in midrange and I think it could possibly work there but it is very hard to get a critical mass of spells in midrange (and if you do they're probably token generators which are a nonbo). The fact that it is a terrible topdeck is also very bad for midrange. Maybe grixis midrange can make it happen, but that would mean they probably move away from delve threats and parents Nalaar. I'm not sure whether that is worth it (I'm no expert on the deck).
SoI looks great but let's be real here.
Khans added the 5 allied fetches which are played in I'm guessing like 70 pct of all modern decks.
Khans had 2 spells banned in Modern and Legacy, and IIRC restricted in Vintage!!!
And on top of that it has format staples like Monastery Swiftspear and Siege Rhino + a lot of fringe stuff that occasionally pops up left and right.
Khans had cards that slotted right into existing tier decks and made them a lot better. The best cards in SoI need to have a new deck built around them (TiTi, Traverse the Ulvenwald) and it remains to be seen what tier they'll be (TiTi doesn't cut it in my testing). This makes SoI the more interesting set IMO, but probably nowhere near as powerful as Khans was. I don't think any card from SoI will be banned within 6 months.
Does Affinity even play Galvanic Blast these days? They are the control deck vs Eldrazi so might prefer cards like Toughtcast.
Why would you play Oath T1 if you have another play to make? As long as you have other meaningful plays to make you don't play oath. The longer you can delay playing it the more useful it is as then you know better what you'll need: liliana, creature or land and which creature. That said, I'm not sold on Oath either but the discard t1 argument is not the reason IMO.