So, does this GP result solidify for anyone else that GB Rock is the best build of the GBx Midrange decks? I know people have been trying to force Jund for the past year, but the consistency and power you get from the two color manabase seems to be where it's at.
In my opinion, Golgari has been better positioned than Jund overall since the printing of Trophy, and this GP result sure doesn’t hurt the case!
Conversations along these lines happens with great frequency:
- What are the advantages to playing straight BG over Jund (or Abzan/Sultai)?
- A relatively painless, more consistent, and utility-rich mana base, mostly.
- Well yeah, but is a better mana base really worth giving up Bolt/BBE/K-Command/Ravine/Path/Souls/Stony Silence?
- Yep, it sure is!
The beneficial ripple effects of such a mana base are legion, especially in the context of a midrange deck. Being just two colors saves a significant number of life points against aggro decks. 3-4 Fields of Ruin grants all kinds of edges against big mana decks, manlands, 3c goodstuff decks, and decks which play few basics (and the printing of Trophy has made Field even better). You’re very unlikely to lose to your own mana base via color screw. You get to play Treetop Village, which is a game-winning card. You’ve got a higher density of G sources for Scavenging Ooze relative to other BGx decks. You’re quite resilient to Blood Moon relative to other BGx decks.
I could go on, but woe to those who underestimate the importance of a clean and powerful mana base in a midrange deck.
BG was already better then the other gbx decks way before trophy was printed. Field of Ruin was the turning point imo,2 color decks can play it and dont suffer from it.
I think the new sphere is great. Finally, finally, finally a real sideboard card vs tron.
Tron is not too good. But it can really mess up local metas. Ive seen people quit modern because their decks could not compete in the 40 pct tron meta. The only advice you could give them was play a different deck, because theres no way to shore up the matchup from the sideboard. And in this aspect tron always was pretty unique.
This doesnt wipe out tron, it just forces them to hedge with artifact removal which slows down their linear plan. Thats enough for me.
Comparison between the two:
Enchantment > creature
Look at top card, optional mill < loot
7 cards in GY to flip < 5 cards in GY to flip (as in, it's easier to flip with 5)
land with crappy Impulse for 3 mana < PW that grants "flashback" for 0 mana
JVP wins in almost every area other than ease of killing.
Azcanta taps for mana once it flips, thats pretty huge. It also cant get attacked off the board.
Hello, this is what I decided I am going to play in my control heavy LGS. Also, we have enough dredge or dredgevines as it is, but no Ad Nauseam/Storm/Titanshift players. Instead we got some Temur Scapeshift players.
So, those difficult matchups are not there, with the exception of Dredge, for which I dedicate 5 slots(we also have Coco and Jeskai Nahiri players and the Cage is great there).
I decided to cut the 25th land(one Plains) for a Remand, which is good against Ancestral Vision, but also for the most clunky decks.
Also, I went by BloodyRabit's suggestion for 4 Tectonic Edges, which are better against control decks and against those Temur Scapeshift decks.
Also, I want to cut a card from my sideboard and I don't know which, but I'll re-evaluate. Could you see something better for me to be even better geared up towards Ux control decks? Maybe a second Rev? Maybe a Gideon, Ally Of Zendikar, or a maindeckable Elspeth? Maybe Spell Snares?
PS: No Confirm Suspicions. The card seems very akward and clunkly, and this is Modern which we are talking about. 5 mana to counter a spell and draw 3 cards over 6 mana? I would add the second Rev insead, it's MUCH better(lifegain, instant value).
Thanks a lot guys.
If you want to beat control stick a Narset Transcendent in the sb. This is really hard to beat for control, just plus to ultimate and watch them scramble with eot snapcasters and cryptic bounce.
Yeah, I think objectively Infect is actually more powerful it's just boring to play (imo). A playset of Goyfs is a sick prize!
To each his own of course but I think Bant Eldrazi has less relevant lines of play to it than infect. It's pretty straightforward. I'd definately try it on Cockatrice or Xmage first. But I consider Infect to be a very fun deck (from either side of the matchup) because one mistake and you're dead and the infect player really has to know/feel when to go all-in.
I don't think Noble Hierarch is good in Junk because you can come to awkward situations when you have both discard and Noble Hierach in the opening hand but can't play both f them on turn 1. The problem here is that both of these cards becomes significantly worse pass turn 1, not just because of their effect but it also ruins your curve of playing 1 cmc card on turn 1, 2 cmc card on turn 2 and so on.
Discard and Noble isnt awkward. You always discard. The only other situation I would think you would play Hierarch first is if youre against a blue based deck and on the play, you want to T2 lilly to get around counter magic. Otherwise, casting hierarch on turn 2 isnt bad. It still enables turn 3 rhino, or Souls + path or goyf + decay. Jund is known to have the advantage of being able to play multiple spells a turn and Abzan has access to that with Hierarch.
And I would agree that Hierarch is a bad late game top deck but things have changed. First off, youre cutting lands for her, so a land off the top isnt any better. Next, we have Grim Flayer, so swinging in with an extra point of damage can make or break getting a trigger off Grim. Not to mention goyf being able to break the mirror vs. Jund. She is lackluster before the printing of Flayer. But now, Grim adds an aggressive element to our deck and Hierarch just capitalizes on it.
Hierarch also makes it easier to have that critical 4th card type in the yard. Instant, land, and sorcery are the easy 3. Hierarch can chump (or eat a bolt, which is good for us) and have Grim hit delirium.
If my jund opponent bolts my Hierarch, thats one less removal spell for my Grims. And since we are swapping a land for a Hierarch, youre essentially trading your land for a bolt.
Almost fully agree, the new Abzan builds are not liked the old ones. The old ones were pretty good vs bolt deccks, but bolt decks are not doing great atm. The new abzan builds have a different philosophy, they play to the board quickly and put on pressure quickly. They're also a lot better vs aggro decks then the old ones (how many times have you looked at a hand with no action before turn 3? It's just too slow atm.)
I also don't agree with always playing t1 discard over hierarch. If you're on the draw you can often see what they are playing and decide then. Going T1 hierarch, T2 discard + goyf/flayer is often the better play. If you're on the play and can slam a T2 liliana i'd take it in the dark as well, this play smashes a ton of decks.
Bad top decks and being bolt proof are meta calls which you shouldn't make atm IMO unless your meta is infested with Jund and Jeskai.
My testing also shows the new deck loves blooming marsh.
The biggest weakness of the new type of Abzan is its crap matchup to Bant Eldrazi IMO.
In Abzan it's not just about the turn 1 play though. It's a very mana greedy deck. Of course you want untapped B on turn 1 and you could just fetch a swamp. But often I'm forced to fetch a Overgrown Tomb/Godless Shrine so that I can play the cards in my hand over the next few turns. Not having to lightning bolt yourself so that you can play the spells in your hand can't be bad with so many aggro decks in the format right? I think it'll be a tricky balancing act between fetches, shocks, manlands, fast lands and possibly a filter land.
You can predict metagame but can't be sure about it. These players just picked what they thought it was the best deck for this tournament but if I was one of them and knew this would be the metagame I definitely wouldn't pick Abzan.
Of course. In hindsight it's not the best choice. Everyone probably should have brought Tron. But in hindsight those kinds of things are easy to say. Seeing the gp results I think Abzan was a relatively safe choice. It's never going to be nuts, but it's probably not going to be horrible either.
I agree with Path being better against Death's Shadow than Bolt you need to know that Jund plays Terminate too, not just Lightning Bolt. I feel that people often forget when comparing Jund and Abzan and their removal and just compare Bolt vs Path but it's actually (in my opinion at least) Bolt and Terminate vs Path. Against Death's Shadow Path is probably still a bit better than Terminate because it costs only one mana and due to the fact that they don't play any basics it doesn't have any drawback.
Path is not a bit better then terminate vs superaggrissive decks, it's miles better. Terminate costs twice as much as path to cast. In these games which are decided in the first 3 turns that is absolutely HUGE! Just compare it to having a bolt or a decay in hand as your only removal on the draw vs infect...
Collective Brutality gives you better game against Infect and Burn but I don't know how much it improve these matchups. Abzan (with out it) was underdog against both of them.
Slight underdogs yes, even though burn was very beatable as long as you built your deck a bit with it in mind. Collective brutality gives a few more percentages.
I agree that Abzan becomes more appealing to play with all these new tools but I'm still on Jund. I guess we have to wait though and see where Abzan goes in the future and how much these cards will raise it.
Of course you play whatever you want, atm Abzan is better IMO. That might change quickly if other aggro decks like zoo, infect, tribal aggro,... start to rear their heads again though. And with some sideboard tweaking Jund can certainly gain a lot of pcts vs Abzan.
We'll see what the new fastlands do for the deck. I think they'll be a good addition. There's some discussion about whether abzan wants these as it only really plays black one drops (discard), but that's false logic. Often I turn 1 fetch for a shock into discard just to fix my mana on later turns. Saving 3 damage there will definately help beating those aggressive decks.
Yes it does. The pros metagame the metagame; that is why they are playing abzan and not jund.
The best players on the planet don't just pick decks on a whim. They know about suicide zoo and dredge and picked abzan to combat those decks.
As it showed playing BGx at Worlds was bad decision. Neither Jund neither Abzan was good positioned in this metagame and results show this. Only one GBx player made it into the top 4 (with Abzan) despite 10 of them played it and there were also 2 Jund decks. You may agree or not but I think such a big prevalence of Abzan was there due to expectations of Jund (at least this makes sense to me) but as it turns out there were other decks Abzan isn't that good against.
I am not so sure it was a bad pick. There are no truely unwinnable matchups like tron. Worst is the 2 titan shift (which is a pretty crappy matchup). Bant eldrazi and company is not great but not horrible either. It wasn't a great pick either though but certainly not bad. Jund is a terrible pick in this meta.
In hindsight Titanshift seems like the best choice, but it's pretty hard to guess how much fast aggro shows up (iirc last year there was plenty).
Remember that modern was only a very small part of the equasion for top 4.
IMO the reasons to play abzan these days are:
Jund is popular
Path (unlike Bolt) is a house vs Death's Shadow
Collective Brutality gives Abzan better game vs Infect and Burn, lessening the need for Bolt.
Grim Flayer allows Abzan (and gives it a reason) to play lower to the ground.
Lingering Souls crushes any Delver type or midrange grind deck (which remain popular)
That elf seems nuts for Legacy: your opponent can't brainstorm or ponder and it cantrips if you remove it (except against sweepers), I'd try it at least in the sideboard of Shardless.
I was first thinking vs value based decks but this seems great vs a lot more: wasteland/port me, draw a card tendrils of agony me 8 times, I'll draw 8, look a Flusterstorm!
Lily edict, draw a card.
Lavamancer my deathrite, draw a card
...
for standard:
I have no clue, don't have enough money to play that format.
for Legacy:
I want to try this in my Shardless deck. Triggering delirium is no problem (and it's not a big deal if you don't have it asap I think) and this plays GREAT with Shardless Agent, Sylvan Library and Brainstorm. Legacy also doesn't have that many blockers to plow through. I think it can be really good here.
for Modern:
I think it's an interesting card but not sure whether it is good enough.
I don't think this cuts it in my Abzan midrange deck or in a Jund deck. These decks get delirium too slowly and most decks can reliably get out a T3 blocker to stop this thing. I guess he is most useful vs decks that don't play to the board quickly like tron and various combo decks. This thing can keep the disruption flowing. But on the other hand it might do this too slowly. Best case scenario is drop this T2, swing T3 and trigger ability digging for something, T4 draw what you "scried" to the top. This seems mighty slow. At least in Legacy I can play brainstorm or shardless after combat to get that hymn to tourach on T3. It is a great topdeck though, which is an important requirement for a creature in a BGx deck.
I doubt dredge wants this as it turns on spot removal and can't be recursed from the yard, but I'm not an expert on the deck.
I think if this will be heavily played in modern it'll be in a new dedicated delirium deck.
I'd love to try this in a sultai midrange delirium deck but whether that will ever be good enough seems very, very doubtfull. This deck enables delirium very easily and is the grindiest of the BGx flavors but struggles with aggro decks like zoo, burn, merfolk,.. because of its crappy removal options (no path, no bolt). Gnarlwood Dryad should help against the likes of zoo but I doubt that will be enough.
A straight up BG delirium deck might be interesting as well. But enablers like Grisly Salvage are probably too slow. I suppose a Jund deck with faithless looting could get this to work.
Winmore card is winmore card.
This card is nowhere near Tarmogoyf powerlevel. Seriously, we've had Delirium for a while now, it's impossible to consistently get, making this a 2/2 with upside, only if your opponent has an empty board, aka win more card, aka crap.
In modern it's not hard to consistently turn on at all, it's just that the current delirium cards have a very low floor which makes it very risky if your opponent can disrupt your delirium with cards like rest in peace.
BG was already better then the other gbx decks way before trophy was printed. Field of Ruin was the turning point imo,2 color decks can play it and dont suffer from it.
Tron is not too good. But it can really mess up local metas. Ive seen people quit modern because their decks could not compete in the 40 pct tron meta. The only advice you could give them was play a different deck, because theres no way to shore up the matchup from the sideboard. And in this aspect tron always was pretty unique.
This doesnt wipe out tron, it just forces them to hedge with artifact removal which slows down their linear plan. Thats enough for me.
Are you allowed to stream the beta version of Arena? I thought there was an NDA to be signed.
Azcanta taps for mana once it flips, thats pretty huge. It also cant get attacked off the board.
If you want to beat control stick a Narset Transcendent in the sb. This is really hard to beat for control, just plus to ultimate and watch them scramble with eot snapcasters and cryptic bounce.
Otoh this, unlike Path, deals with Noble cleanly turn 1.
This is definately good enough for modern. I would say it's great! This might even make Sultai a real deck in modern.
To each his own of course but I think Bant Eldrazi has less relevant lines of play to it than infect. It's pretty straightforward. I'd definately try it on Cockatrice or Xmage first. But I consider Infect to be a very fun deck (from either side of the matchup) because one mistake and you're dead and the infect player really has to know/feel when to go all-in.
Almost fully agree, the new Abzan builds are not liked the old ones. The old ones were pretty good vs bolt deccks, but bolt decks are not doing great atm. The new abzan builds have a different philosophy, they play to the board quickly and put on pressure quickly. They're also a lot better vs aggro decks then the old ones (how many times have you looked at a hand with no action before turn 3? It's just too slow atm.)
I also don't agree with always playing t1 discard over hierarch. If you're on the draw you can often see what they are playing and decide then. Going T1 hierarch, T2 discard + goyf/flayer is often the better play. If you're on the play and can slam a T2 liliana i'd take it in the dark as well, this play smashes a ton of decks.
Bad top decks and being bolt proof are meta calls which you shouldn't make atm IMO unless your meta is infested with Jund and Jeskai.
My testing also shows the new deck loves blooming marsh.
The biggest weakness of the new type of Abzan is its crap matchup to Bant Eldrazi IMO.
Of course. In hindsight it's not the best choice. Everyone probably should have brought Tron. But in hindsight those kinds of things are easy to say. Seeing the gp results I think Abzan was a relatively safe choice. It's never going to be nuts, but it's probably not going to be horrible either.
Path is not a bit better then terminate vs superaggrissive decks, it's miles better. Terminate costs twice as much as path to cast. In these games which are decided in the first 3 turns that is absolutely HUGE! Just compare it to having a bolt or a decay in hand as your only removal on the draw vs infect...
Slight underdogs yes, even though burn was very beatable as long as you built your deck a bit with it in mind. Collective brutality gives a few more percentages.
Of course you play whatever you want, atm Abzan is better IMO. That might change quickly if other aggro decks like zoo, infect, tribal aggro,... start to rear their heads again though. And with some sideboard tweaking Jund can certainly gain a lot of pcts vs Abzan.
We'll see what the new fastlands do for the deck. I think they'll be a good addition. There's some discussion about whether abzan wants these as it only really plays black one drops (discard), but that's false logic. Often I turn 1 fetch for a shock into discard just to fix my mana on later turns. Saving 3 damage there will definately help beating those aggressive decks.
I am not so sure it was a bad pick. There are no truely unwinnable matchups like tron. Worst is the 2 titan shift (which is a pretty crappy matchup). Bant eldrazi and company is not great but not horrible either. It wasn't a great pick either though but certainly not bad. Jund is a terrible pick in this meta.
In hindsight Titanshift seems like the best choice, but it's pretty hard to guess how much fast aggro shows up (iirc last year there was plenty).
Remember that modern was only a very small part of the equasion for top 4.
IMO the reasons to play abzan these days are:
Jund is popular
Path (unlike Bolt) is a house vs Death's Shadow
Collective Brutality gives Abzan better game vs Infect and Burn, lessening the need for Bolt.
Grim Flayer allows Abzan (and gives it a reason) to play lower to the ground.
Lingering Souls crushes any Delver type or midrange grind deck (which remain popular)
I was first thinking vs value based decks but this seems great vs a lot more:
wasteland/port me, draw a card
tendrils of agony me 8 times, I'll draw 8, look a Flusterstorm!
Lily edict, draw a card.
Lavamancer my deathrite, draw a card
...
I have no clue, don't have enough money to play that format.
for Legacy:
I want to try this in my Shardless deck. Triggering delirium is no problem (and it's not a big deal if you don't have it asap I think) and this plays GREAT with Shardless Agent, Sylvan Library and Brainstorm. Legacy also doesn't have that many blockers to plow through. I think it can be really good here.
for Modern:
I think it's an interesting card but not sure whether it is good enough.
I don't think this cuts it in my Abzan midrange deck or in a Jund deck. These decks get delirium too slowly and most decks can reliably get out a T3 blocker to stop this thing. I guess he is most useful vs decks that don't play to the board quickly like tron and various combo decks. This thing can keep the disruption flowing. But on the other hand it might do this too slowly. Best case scenario is drop this T2, swing T3 and trigger ability digging for something, T4 draw what you "scried" to the top. This seems mighty slow. At least in Legacy I can play brainstorm or shardless after combat to get that hymn to tourach on T3. It is a great topdeck though, which is an important requirement for a creature in a BGx deck.
I doubt dredge wants this as it turns on spot removal and can't be recursed from the yard, but I'm not an expert on the deck.
I think if this will be heavily played in modern it'll be in a new dedicated delirium deck.
I'd love to try this in a sultai midrange delirium deck but whether that will ever be good enough seems very, very doubtfull. This deck enables delirium very easily and is the grindiest of the BGx flavors but struggles with aggro decks like zoo, burn, merfolk,.. because of its crappy removal options (no path, no bolt). Gnarlwood Dryad should help against the likes of zoo but I doubt that will be enough.
A straight up BG delirium deck might be interesting as well. But enablers like Grisly Salvage are probably too slow. I suppose a Jund deck with faithless looting could get this to work.
In modern it's not hard to consistently turn on at all, it's just that the current delirium cards have a very low floor which makes it very risky if your opponent can disrupt your delirium with cards like rest in peace.