I don't think anybody comes to the Esper Control Forum because they want to play 23 lands and maindeck Geists.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but if you don't understand how that deck is "midrange" and not control then you are obviously trolling.
Sure, it CAN control. But any deck CAN control. Burn vs. Affinity, Burn is a "control" deck because it can Bolt all of affinities threats and then turn the corner and apply pressure. Does that make Burn a control deck?
I can't even believe we are having this discussion. Surely somebody must agree with me? I feel like I'm being pranked.
- The_7ranshuman
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GreatNateMTG posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoPosted in: ControlQuote from The_7ranshuman »Are you implying this deck doesn't 'control'? It does so very well, but through a different approach. It's highly disruptive (4 IoK, 2 Seize, 3 Sculler, 3 Mage, 1 Clique, 3 Charms), packs a lot of removal, 7 counters (with board), and Walkers. It even has 4 big draw spells + 1 Jace, AoT.
The 23 lands is because it's a Control deck with a lower curve than the norm.
Feedback from a player who has played vs my deck with his Grixis Twin:
"I play grixis twin, and I gotta say - This deck is a pain in the ass. It's controlling, it's aggressive, and it's just absurdly powerful. This deck is not easy to beat. Out of our 20+ sets I won 3 of them. I never 2-0 him either. A+ deck."
I'd classify it as a mid-range deck. Sure you have many controlling elements making it a more controlling mid-range deck, but so does Jund/Junk. What is separating this deck from a pure control deck is the primary game plan. You want to disrupt/control the game just enough so that your beaters can close out the game. A true control decks game plan is to control the game until the latest stages all the while keeping it's opponent from being able to win. -
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AlonsoCagi posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoI think the point is that this thread is for discusing Esper Draw-Go control mostly (or exclusively). I think this Twix deck is nice and all, but it'd be better if you started a thread on Deck Creation or see if there's some discusion going on about it at the Esper Midrange thread on Tier 2.Posted in: Control -
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Jayman21 posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoPosted in: ControlQuote from The_7ranshuman »Are you implying this deck doesn't 'control'? It does so very well, but through a different approach. It's highly disruptive (4 IoK, 2 Seize, 3 Sculler, 3 Mage, 1 Clique, 3 Charms), packs a lot of removal, 7 counters (with board), and Walkers. It even has 4 big draw spells + 1 Jace, AoT.
The 23 lands is because it's a Control deck with a lower curve than the norm.
Feedback from a player who has played vs my deck with his Grixis Twin:
"I play grixis twin, and I gotta say - This deck is a pain in the ass. It's controlling, it's aggressive, and it's just absurdly powerful. This deck is not easy to beat. Out of our 20+ sets I won 3 of them. I never 2-0 him either. A+ deck."
Bgx d3cks control but no one will call them true control decks. No one is saying your list is bad its just not following the true philosophies of a control deck. It is a h6brid of aggro and control thus midrange same as bgx only difference is that it uses counter magic along with discard and removal. Its not a stigma thing either its just where it falls in the spectrum of archetypes which will be more towards the middle while wafo tapa style decks usually go to the complete control side. -
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Sentimental_Engine_Slayer posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoPosted in: ControlQuote from The_7ranshuman »'Esper Twix'
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1240705
Thanks for your contribution, but this is definitely the wrong forum. There is an Esper Midrange thread under tier 2.
There are Mana Leaks present, less than 4 Esper charm, and only 23 Lands. You and I both know this isn't Esper Control,it is an Esper Midrange deck that you jammed a couple planeswalkers into.
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Jayman21 posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoPosted in: ControlQuote from The_7ranshuman »I'm currently playing a UW midrange list that has been putting up better numbers than our Wafo Tapo-style lists. I've even played vs it and its strongest card is Esper Charm. If I switch back to Esper, it will be structured similar to Delverless.
This is the undefeated list:
This is what I call 'Mythic Flash'. I haven't had any bad match ups so far. It's not perfect but it's a prime example of midrange control. It takes advantage of Instant speed
and can play reactively or proactively very efficiently.
Once I maximize this deck's potential, I will try out an Esper Version that utilizes Esper Charm. What do you guys think?
Mythic Flash is currently 13-0 in testing.
With a deck like this I would run thoughtseize and Lingering souls main. Possibly drop a cryptic as well. -
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ZResna posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoThe_7ranshuman seems easiest way to transition it is to swap out your current removal with efficien black removal if its doingwell in testing Iwhouldnt change to much as is id drop reapel and dismember and for x2 smother x1 doom bladedspher ccould go as well but at that point I'dstart jamming souls seeing as your list is more midrangey as for sSB I'd run 2 extripate and some number of thoughtseizePosted in: Control -
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RDSRedemption posted a message on The State of Modern: Dual vs Tri-Color, Silver Bullets/Tech, and Fringe Cards/DecksPosted in: ModernQuote from Oopssorryy »But in doing so you would really have to take a look into fetch lands, which would mean you have to drop Aven Mindcensor and the Leonin Arbiter to ensure you do hate on your own deck. While Hushwing Gryff is solid, you would still have to fill Leonin's slot, and I don't think just slotting in more removal in his place would be the right choice. Why not Selesnya Charm to take out goyfs?
Youre wrong. If you actually read Aven Mindcensor it says it doesn't affect you, only opponents. However your point on Arbiter is true and could be a problem. But if a card or deck needs something, im sure some decks will find a way to innovate. That's why you don't just take a list online and buy it and call it a day. You should work on the deck yourself, calculate things, test, run through it and see what other's opinions are. For EX, my Melira Pod deck looks more like a Jund Midrange or even a Hatebear deck due to my editing of the list to provide a better matchup at my LGS. -
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Chaam posted a message on Modern Esper Draw-GoI think if we are going to try to attempt a more proactive version with discard and walkers we would want to lower our curve and make it sort of like a midrange deck with a lot of control elements. Sort of like how Stoneblade or Shardless BUG operates in Legacy. I am currently working on a list like that since I think going "pure" control auto-loses to deck like tron. Esper is my favorite color combination and control is my favorite archetype and I am usually a huge fan of pure draw-go control. But after playing the deck, I just don't think it is the most competitive list Esper can put together in Modern atm.Posted in: Control
If you guys don't want to discuss a version like this just let me know and I will gtfo since I know it is quite different from Wafo-Tapo's list and a stone's throw from the Sun Titan lists.
My List:
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures (8)
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Artifacts (2)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Sorceries (16)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
1 Steelshaper's Gift
3 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of GodInstants (7)
4 Path to Exile
2 Smother
1 Dismember
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace Beleren
Lands (23)
1 Seachrome Coast
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 Godless Shrine
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Any thoughts or comments? The primer is in my sig. -
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KibeththeWalker posted a message on [Primer] Mardu (Dega/BWR) MidrangeSome thoughts on theory-crafting this deck, and why you would play it over jund or junk or straight BW deadguy ale:Posted in: Modern Archives - Proven
You need to think about what each color in Modern mtg is bringing to a deck, and what the individual strengths are.
The green in junk/jund lists exists to provide two things: efficient 2-mana creatures (tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze)that are the most effective in the game, and to provide versatile green/black removal spells (maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay). This allows the green decks to provide very early pressure while giving them effective g1 removal against almost any deck. However, green sideboard cards are not very effective.
The red in jund decks is used for efficient burn and removal: lightning bolt, lightning helix, and terminate. Lightning bolt is obviously the premier removal of the format, and no other card in modern replaces its utility. Red has another less publicized use: it has two incredibly powerful sideboard cards in the current meta. Blood moon and Anger of the Gods are both absurdly powerful and heavily featured in red decks everywhere.
White is used for removal (path to exile), grinding threats (lingering souls, brimaz, finks), and perhaps most importantly as sideboard tech. Path is the simplest solution to any creature problem. Lingering souls is excellent in any fair matchup in modern. White has the best sideboard cards in modern, providing hits like stony silence, wear // tear, aven mindcensor, timely reinforcements, and rest in peace.
All of these decks already run black for the card advantage of bob and lili, as well as the heavy disruption of thoughtseize and inquisition of kozilek. One could argue that all of these decks are base black decks that are attempting to use different splashes to answer different parts of the metagame. In summary of each splash:
Jund and Junk decks are very good g1 decks that have high utility against most of the format. They present a reasonable strategy against everything. However, based on which color you choose, the decks have definite weaknesses that are difficult for their sideboards to address. These decks make excellent choices in an unknown metagame.
BWR still have useful g1s, but are less brutally efficient against an entire field. However, they have a much better ability to be tuned to stomp certain decks, whether its using blood moon and anger of the gods against pod, or stony silence and shatterstorm against affinity. Basically, the three color combination gives you access to all of the powerful hosers you could need. This makes BWR extremely powerful in a defined metagame where you can use your more powerful sideboard to crush suspected decks.
BW is a version of BWR that leans more on the hateful white cards as opposed to the efficient removal of red. Its an argument of mana stability and saved life versus more powerful cards.
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Courser of Kruphix
Sylvan and Courser are one of the best 1-2 punches the Standard format has ever seen. They've even broken the rules historically held for Green vs Aggro. Paired together, these two are capable of providing an advantage vs any archetype. They simply don't play fair. It's no wonder Abzan has appeared 48 times in Top 8s (Jeskai has had 49) since the release of Khans. Abzan/Junk has also finished 1st and 2nd more than any other tri-color deck in Standard since Waco, TX on 9/27, followed by Jeskai (not much different than its older sibling format, Modern). I'll bet that Sylvan and Courser have a lot to do with its dominating success.
That being said, is this powerful duo good enough for Modern? At the very least, they both dodge Lightning Bolt. Let's start with that.
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1
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Pack Rat
3 Tidehollow Sculler
Planeswalkers: 4
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells: 21
3 Sign in Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Smother
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Utter End
4 Lingering Souls
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Mutavault
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Auriok Champion
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Stony Silence
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Utter End
1 Celestial Purge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Stain the Mind
It took several by surprise. Nice prize for coming in 1st! A playset of allied fetchlands of my choice.
Round 1:
Vs Abzan Pod: 2-1
Round 2:
Vs UW Tron: 2-0
Round 3:
Vs Scapeshift: 2-1
Round 4:
Vs Mono Red: 2-1
Round 5:
Vs Junk: 1-2
Top 8:
Round 1:
Vs Jund: 2-1
Round 2:
Vs UWR Flash: 2-0
Final Round:
Vs Affinity: 2-0
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Honorable Mentions: Precinct Captain/Nantuko Shade
3:
Honorable Mentions: Vampire Nighthawk/Aven Mindcensor
4:
Honorable Mentions: Emeria Angel/Linvala, Keeper of Silence
5:
Honorable Mentions: Divinity of the Pride/Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
This list is for those who want to expiriment with different viable options. Enjoy brewing!
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You're right. I was mashing all of them into Wedge. Fixed.