Reckless bushwacker goes so well with burning-tree emissary. I'd ditch the hellsparks.
For the SB... there are lots of budgets options that would improve it. Ancient grudge is cheap, instead of smelt. Nihil spellbombs over tormod's. Terminate over roast. I actually don't mind the stone rain (Tron?), since blood moon is pretty expensive and trophy too.
If you could try to squeeze a few bolts in the SB, that'd be good too, push would be better.
I have not played knightfall VS phoenix, but I have played against a few different TiTi decks and I feel like this matchup is bad for us. We need to find an answer or else in 1 or 2 turns it's going to flip and probably win the game on its own.
I'm still watching the meta at my LGS, and maybe the answer is going up to 3 or 4 damping spheres. Really hurts the phoenix decks, help our bad matchups (tron, storm, etc). Feels bad to board like that but IMO the meta is the meta.
Agreed, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade will have probably have her place in the deck and i will sleeve up again when i get my copies.
I also think Tithe Taker could be the CoCo's (maindeckable?) version of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. It surely fixes a lot of URx (i.e. jeskai/grixis) problems.
In my version though, i go up a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm and focus more on comboing off.
I'm interested in Lavinia, because she helps against our bad matchups (Tron and Storm are the 2 that give me the most problems usually). The fact that she interacts with quellers means that she is probably maindeckable too. + She incidentally hits many other cards (hollow one, terminus, any cascade effect, any suspend, etc).
Not too excited for tithe taker... Right now (with the meta being so fast, full of aggro and combo decks), I think our worst card is voice of resurgence. Tithe Taker just seems like a somewhat "different" version of voice (force opponent to play on their turn, replace itself with it dies. However I'd much rather have the voice token(s))
More XX means that a list is more "all in" on the combo. It can create more explosive turns. Its also easier to trigger vengevines. However, with the meta being what it is currently, going "all in" on the graveyard can be rough. There is a lot of graveyard hate being thrown around, and with phoenix decks on the rise, its probably safe to say that the hate is here to stay.
Less XX means you can do other things if your bridges get exiled or vengevines surgically extracted. Most lists run 4 or 5 right now.
Thread for bridgevine was deleted. We've had a few people working on a new primer, would it be possible to resurrect the thread while replacing the OP with the new primer?
Really like this deck, however I've been on a losing streak lately. I'm still playing 2x retreat (pretty standard list) and it feels like taking them out would be even worse.
I'm really struggling against "uninteractive" or "goldfishy" decks. Seems like I can never get a meaningful clock going, so even if I delay their gameplan with a queller or two ( + unified will / negate after sideboarding), that still give them a few turns to naturally draw "their thing", combo off and win.
How do you guys approach storm, valakut, tron, etc?
Jace is not only card advantage, he's also card selection. With so many ways of shuffling our library, we can draw 3 and shuffle away what we don't want each turn. In other words, Jace helps you find the cards that are relevant in order to answer a specific problem.
I've experimented a bit, I tried atarka's command and ghor-clan rampager, both of which I really liked. However bolt is just too good to pass up IMO. The interaction really helps in some matchup (getting rid of electromancer vs storm, killing arbor elf vs ponza, etc etc). That's also why I have 2 lavamancer in the main.
For the discard, 4x neonate, 4x faithless, 4x street wraith, 2x cathartic. In a RB shell, the discard is super important, but with RG I've won many games with just good sequencing of flameblade / BTE / bushwhacker.
I keep switching back and forth between Cathartic Reunion and Goblin Lore. Lately I've been lucky with Lore but I wonder if the inconsistency will come back to spite me. I'll be taking this deck to GP Vegas so I'm trying to work out the last few kinks.
Anyone have input on Reunion vs. Lore in a version like this?
I run a very similar list and I really dislike lore. Sequencing bte into bushwacker is crucial, and lore messes up with that. If you want to play lore, you need to build your deck around it to take advantage of the random discard (4x bloodghast and possibly 4x phoenix too).
The problem with reunion is that it is a bit slow, and is also an horrible topdeck. Right now I'm only running 2 and it feels alright.
MtgGoldfish played a similar version a few weeks ago. The deck looked really fun to play but a bit inconsistent. The deck also goes all-in on bridge from below and does not have any way to recover from a board wipe...
I felt like the deck was fine and the decks I lost to were perfectly winnable if I drew the right portion of my deck. I wouldn't make any changes to the deck if I had a second chance, the only flex choice I'd make would be whether or not I should go 3 path 2 retreat or 2 path 3 retreat, but the difference seems a bit negligible and would not have made a difference today. Tomorrow I'm going to play Bant in the side events and see how that goes, going 3-3 makes me feel like I should have played Bant to begin with.
I've been testing a naya / BBE list too. Heavily inspired from a deck that 5-0'd on magic online.
I think BBE is pretty strong but you really need to build around it if you want it to shine. There's a few adjustments that should be made to use BBE over CoCo. I think the BBE decks are looking to be way more aggressive.
Most importantly is the mana dorks, IMO. Going BBE > mana dork is certainly the worst thing that can happen. I've seen lists keeping 4 hierarchs and replacing the birds with 4 wild nacalt. A 3/3 for 1 is good early and still "decent" mid/late if you cascade into it.
Second are the paths. BBE > path has the potential to fizzle against many decks (empty board, combo deck, etc). I'm currently trying with 3 helix in the main and I'm always happy to see them. BBE > Helix is always "live" because at worst you can just aim for the face. I keep the paths in the side.
It ends up being fairly different (leaning more toward aggro) than the bant version.
Found this guy on twitch. He runs a list very similar to mine. There's a few differences but basically I use only 2x cathartic reunion instead of his 4 lores, and I chose to include bolts while he didn't
I do like Bomat. It is best if you can cast it early and attack at least 2-3 times with it. Its also surprising how much removal is thrown at this little guy. Between him and flameblade (and even vengevine), he's often the one being targeted by a bolt or a push. However later in the game, its just a 1/1 with no evasion, so it doesn't do much except trigger vengevine.
I included ghor-clan and atarka's because I often had problems finishing the game once my opponent had a few creatures on board. Rampager is a beast IMO. Bloodrush triggers flameblade, counts as a discard for hollow one, etc. I was always happy to see one. Atarka's DID steal a few games, but now that I think about it, in those situations a rampager would have probably worked too. I keep telling myself that the "can't gain life" might be relevant in some matchup, but that seems quite rare.
I've been thinking about adding a few more looting spells. I'll probably try with -2 atarka's +2 cathartic reunion.
Just came back from FNM, 3-1. Lost that match because of severe mana screw. I think 17 lands might not be enough, will try 18. Otherwise I am very satisfied! I like atarka's command and ghor-clan as combat tricks. I also agree that BTE + bushwacker is great. It won me many games where I did not even see vengevines and hollow ones. Its that good.
I was also considering flamewake phoenix (not a lot of flying in modern right now, good evasion), but the main reason preventing me from using it is GY hate. People usually flip out when they see vengevine and bring plenty of hate for game 2. With phoenix our decks become a bit more reliant on the GY and that's not optimal after sideboarding. Right now I like that heavy GY hate only act as minor speedbump and does not turn off my deck entirely.
For the SB... there are lots of budgets options that would improve it. Ancient grudge is cheap, instead of smelt. Nihil spellbombs over tormod's. Terminate over roast. I actually don't mind the stone rain (Tron?), since blood moon is pretty expensive and trophy too.
If you could try to squeeze a few bolts in the SB, that'd be good too, push would be better.
I'm still watching the meta at my LGS, and maybe the answer is going up to 3 or 4 damping spheres. Really hurts the phoenix decks, help our bad matchups (tron, storm, etc). Feels bad to board like that but IMO the meta is the meta.
I'm interested in Lavinia, because she helps against our bad matchups (Tron and Storm are the 2 that give me the most problems usually). The fact that she interacts with quellers means that she is probably maindeckable too. + She incidentally hits many other cards (hollow one, terminus, any cascade effect, any suspend, etc).
Not too excited for tithe taker... Right now (with the meta being so fast, full of aggro and combo decks), I think our worst card is voice of resurgence. Tithe Taker just seems like a somewhat "different" version of voice (force opponent to play on their turn, replace itself with it dies. However I'd much rather have the voice token(s))
Less XX means you can do other things if your bridges get exiled or vengevines surgically extracted. Most lists run 4 or 5 right now.
Thread for bridgevine was deleted. We've had a few people working on a new primer, would it be possible to resurrect the thread while replacing the OP with the new primer?
Or something like that.
Thanks!
I'm really struggling against "uninteractive" or "goldfishy" decks. Seems like I can never get a meaningful clock going, so even if I delay their gameplan with a queller or two ( + unified will / negate after sideboarding), that still give them a few turns to naturally draw "their thing", combo off and win.
How do you guys approach storm, valakut, tron, etc?
I've experimented a bit, I tried atarka's command and ghor-clan rampager, both of which I really liked. However bolt is just too good to pass up IMO. The interaction really helps in some matchup (getting rid of electromancer vs storm, killing arbor elf vs ponza, etc etc). That's also why I have 2 lavamancer in the main.
For the discard, 4x neonate, 4x faithless, 4x street wraith, 2x cathartic. In a RB shell, the discard is super important, but with RG I've won many games with just good sequencing of flameblade / BTE / bushwhacker.
I run a very similar list and I really dislike lore. Sequencing bte into bushwacker is crucial, and lore messes up with that. If you want to play lore, you need to build your deck around it to take advantage of the random discard (4x bloodghast and possibly 4x phoenix too).
The problem with reunion is that it is a bit slow, and is also an horrible topdeck. Right now I'm only running 2 and it feels alright.
MtgGoldfish played a similar version a few weeks ago. The deck looked really fun to play but a bit inconsistent. The deck also goes all-in on bridge from below and does not have any way to recover from a board wipe...
I still prefer the "normal" version.
I've been testing a naya / BBE list too. Heavily inspired from a deck that 5-0'd on magic online.
I think BBE is pretty strong but you really need to build around it if you want it to shine. There's a few adjustments that should be made to use BBE over CoCo. I think the BBE decks are looking to be way more aggressive.
Most importantly is the mana dorks, IMO. Going BBE > mana dork is certainly the worst thing that can happen. I've seen lists keeping 4 hierarchs and replacing the birds with 4 wild nacalt. A 3/3 for 1 is good early and still "decent" mid/late if you cascade into it.
Second are the paths. BBE > path has the potential to fizzle against many decks (empty board, combo deck, etc). I'm currently trying with 3 helix in the main and I'm always happy to see them. BBE > Helix is always "live" because at worst you can just aim for the face. I keep the paths in the side.
It ends up being fairly different (leaning more toward aggro) than the bant version.
I included ghor-clan and atarka's because I often had problems finishing the game once my opponent had a few creatures on board. Rampager is a beast IMO. Bloodrush triggers flameblade, counts as a discard for hollow one, etc. I was always happy to see one. Atarka's DID steal a few games, but now that I think about it, in those situations a rampager would have probably worked too. I keep telling myself that the "can't gain life" might be relevant in some matchup, but that seems quite rare.
I've been thinking about adding a few more looting spells. I'll probably try with -2 atarka's +2 cathartic reunion.
Thanks for the feedback!
2x Atarka's Command
3x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery 4
4x Faithless Looting
Creature 34
2x Bomat Courier
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Flameblade Adept
2x Ghor-Clan Rampager
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Hollow One
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
4x Street Wraith
4x Vengevine
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Copperline Gorge
2x Mountain
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Collective Brutality
2x Destructive Revelry
1x Driven / Despair
1x Feed the Clan
2x Kari Zev's Expertise
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Terminate
Just came back from FNM, 3-1. Lost that match because of severe mana screw. I think 17 lands might not be enough, will try 18. Otherwise I am very satisfied! I like atarka's command and ghor-clan as combat tricks. I also agree that BTE + bushwacker is great. It won me many games where I did not even see vengevines and hollow ones. Its that good.
I was also considering flamewake phoenix (not a lot of flying in modern right now, good evasion), but the main reason preventing me from using it is GY hate. People usually flip out when they see vengevine and bring plenty of hate for game 2. With phoenix our decks become a bit more reliant on the GY and that's not optimal after sideboarding. Right now I like that heavy GY hate only act as minor speedbump and does not turn off my deck entirely.