Deckstats has had this at lease since Aether Revolt.
I know I was brewing with Renegade Rallier on there site maybe 1-2 hours after it was previewed, and this spoiler season they had Gideon of the Trials up almost instantly when I tried to brew.
- Kueson
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Feb 22, 2012Kueson posted a message on UG Generic DredgeI already have, and every card you listed omit Trackers is sub par on many levels to other options we posses.Posted in: Kueson Blog
Flat out, creature based, activated ability milling is a bad idea. About the only time its "ok" is against a heavy control meta where you have the time to spend a few turns selectively milling yourself. In most cases, simply bum rushing your graveyard with mass amounts of cards as quick as possible, will net you greater results in the long run. Not to mention, if you just make 30+ cards in your deck creatures, selective milling looses all value because your draws will almost always be great cards for any situation your in.
I made this comparison in the standard dredge thread,
Merfolk Looter - Screeching Skaab
- Looter cannot mill the turn its played. (And needs 3 turns to mill as much as skaab.)
- Skaab mills 2 the moment it hits the field.
- Looter cannot attack or block because it needs to tap to actively mill.
- Skaab can attack and block at will, because his mill is over with. He is a means of damage and preventing damage, with the hopes he hits your graveyard to be of even more use!
Civilized Scholar - Armored Skaab
- Scholar cannot mill the turn its played. (And needs !!!5!!! turns to mill as much as skaab. Plus thats only if you do not attack with him. If you do attack, he takes an extra turn just to regain his tap ability!)
- Skaab mills 4 the moment it hits the field.
- Scholar cannot attack or block at will because it needs to tap to actively mill.
- Skaab can attack and block at will, because his mill is over with. He is a means of damage and preventing damage, with the hopes he hits your graveyard to be of even more use!
When you consider all of those factors, cards like Merfolk Looter, Civilized Scholar and Deranged Assistant really lose a lot of there face value.
Likewise, Forbidden Alchemy is just a bad, BAD card. There are SOOOOO many better milling options out there, you could literally pick any one of them and probably end up in better shape. Mulch, Dream Twist, Thought Scour, Faithless Looting and Shriekhorn all come to mind before I would ever consider seriously running an alchemy. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So that might be an automatic 3-4 of in my list for a long while. Even if only for extreme testing.
Time to pickup my Marsh Flats while there cheap, Anointed Procession seems nuts for this decks lategame.
Loving it.
Also, Trial of Strength seems mildly playable in the place of Blade Splicer? Less of a chance your opponent kills trial to stop you from spawning dudes, whereas they can just bolt a Blade Splicer and kill your production.
Considering this decks turn 1 is almost always playing an ETBT land, 1-2 copies would fit right in and most likely wouldn't clog your opening hands. It also allows you to cycle it away in the late game for a little draw filtering and puts a land in the yard to be brought back with Sun Titan or Renegade Rallier to pull a plains tagged land into play to help turn on Emeria.
I was mostly playing around with mono white versions recently, but I might have to go back to testing a GW version soon. Might even test 1-2 Splendid Reclamation. With enough Fetch Lands / Ghost Quarter / Scattered Groves and it can easily be a 4 mana put 3-4 lands into play, most of which would have or fetch for plains tags.
There has always been some part of me that's wanted to try a black version since I first started playing around with emeria titan. Mostly because of Lingering Souls.
I did not even have Hidden Stockpile on my radar tho. That seems really handy. Black's also got some really nice etb triggers too, I might have to take a look now.
^ Pretty much this.
Even that, however, isn't really a death blow to tron. Sure you can take away any hope of them hitting there combo away, but our deck also plays slow and hopes for late game. Chances are by the time we assemble a late game win, there already on 7-8 lands anyway and just fairly cast there big things.
Might consider running Flagstones of Trokair and drop down to 1 Mistveil Plains.
I've been dicking around with a mono white list online atm before bothering to pickup a set of flagstones, but so far I've liked them quite a bit. Lowers your total plains count 'technically', but in the late game you usually get a second or third which allows you to fetch to hit your plains count, or better yet is the ability to Ghost Quarter your own Flagstones of Trokair to pull 2 plains at the end of your opponents turn to instantly turn on Emeria against an opponent who isn't paying attention.
Running 4 Flagstones of Trokair and 1 Mistveil Plains makes it very likely to see a Mistveil nearly every game, vs once every couple of games, while lowering the etbt count by 1.
That said, a comment on the mono white list. I love the interactions between Mistveil Plains + Squadron Hawk + Smuggler's Copter as an engine to push through damage. But boy do I wish Wall of Omens had 1 attack. So many opening hands that are on the fence would be snap keeps id wall could power a copter.
Could even be used to reset your Finks by giving a it a +1/+1 counter to cancel out its -1/-1. You'd lose a mana dork in the equation, but still its more blocks.
Used to be in it as a 2-3 of, currently testing without them. Just feels like I was always holding a witness in my hand waiting for something good to use it on, when I could just as easily play another creature that cantrips into more creatures, and so on.
It does have the ability to pull removal back from the yard tho, so I will probably add 2 back into the final list once I get around to it. Outside of putting a Path to Exile back into my hand tho, it's started to feel like Renegade Rallier does what Eternal Witness wants too, but slightly better as long as you tailor your list to the 2cmc requirement. This is partly why I'm still using Lone Missionary over Kitchen Finks.
Only played maybe 10 games so far with a singleton Serra Avenger in the list, but the hands where I see her early have never really been a problem. The deck has so many turn 2 plays in it if you build around Renegade Rallier that she might be dead on those first three turns, but you have something else to do anyway.
As for her having no synergy with Flickerwisp, I don't really think she needs too. Shes not a 4 of slot, shes just a costed beat-stick that can help push through extra damage. By that same token, Voice of Resurgence has no synergy with Flickerwisp. That said, probably dropping her in favor of the idea below.
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I'm considering trying to find room for mana dorks. The idea of turn 1 land > Birds of Paradise into turn 2 fetch land > Renegade Rallier pulling back the fetch for turn 3 four lands plus mana dork, allowing for a turn 3 Wall of Omens + Flickerwisp or the like to reload your hand, or even just more Renegade Ralliers in "Wood Elves mode" using the same fetch to power out a turn 4 Sun Titan feels like something worth doing.
I've considered (still considering) Smuggler's Copter. My only issue is that to really ensure your ability to turn it on I'd want to drop the Wall of Omens for Elvish Visionarys.
I'm not a huge fan of Thraben Inspector. Only ever used it in a mono-white list I was playtesting before ordering the core of Emeria Control, and I almost never felt like spending 2 mana on the clue did anything. When almost everything you play also puts some form of card into your hand, you really just want to play those cards in your hand, not spend 2 mana to put another card in your hand.
That said, Mortarpod is in my current list I'm kicking around, list below.
4 Flickerwisp
4 Lone Missionary
4 Renegade Rallier
1 Saffi Eriksdotter (Serra Avenger?)
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Sun Titan
4 Wall of Omens
2 Mortarpod (Oath of Nissa?)
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
//LANDS: (24)
1 Canopy Vista
4 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
6 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
You can still play a turn 3 Ghost Quarter tap your first 2 lands to float mana, tap-saq GQ to blow up your own land to pull a basic, tap basic play Renegade Rallier pull the destroyed land or GQ from your GY to go back up to 3 lands. Also relevant that you will also still have 1 mana up if you happen to pull back the destroyed land. So you can still have a white up for a Path or a green up for an Oath.
Its a semi sub-optimal play, but its still a play that gets you a 3/2 on the board thins your deck and can mind game your opponent with an open mana source.
Edit: As an aside, after playing with this deck a lot online over the past 2-3 weeks, nothing would make me more joyous then to see Wall of Blossoms reprinted in standard so I could play Wall of Omens 5-8. Of which, I would totally play 8 walls.
I've been messing around with the idea of a green splash in testing a bit, and sort of came to the same conclusion. I honestly think if your going to splash green for Renegade Rallier, you should play the full four. Its ability to play like a ghetto Fulminator Mage with a Ghost Quarter or Wood Elves with a Fetch Land has some real value too it. Let alone its ability to recur dead creatures if drawn into the lategame.
I've also found that more often then not I don't really want to cast an Oath of Nissa on turn 1 when I see a Renegade Rallier in my opening hand, because that usually means popping my fetch before turn 3 to get on green turn 1. At most I think 2 might be the sweet spot for Oath of Nissa.
Edit: Because of Renegade Rallier, I think I might play around with Serra Avenger as a 1-2 of. Gives renegade a decent late game target to recur, or even Sun Titan. Sun Titan > Flickerwisp > bounce Sun Titan > Serra Avenger feels powerful. 6 power on the ground and 6 power in the air for 6 mana is game defiantly ending.
Here's hoping that we see a legendary creature cycle for playmats', and not any of the other cycles seeing print in this set.
Between Renegade Rallier, Elvish Visionary and Oath of Nissa, a green splash version has my attention.
Just the idea of Sun Titan > Flickerwisp > re-Sun Titan > Renegade Rallier > Wall of Omens/Elvish Visionary/Oath of Nissa has me excited.
Magical value plays aside, even just a turn 3 crack fetch and slam Renegade Rallier to bring back that same fetch for a 1 land ramp seems solid.