Outside of Cascading it with BBE it just doesn't effect your opponent enough and costs you a turn to play it. I would much rather be dropping Anathemancer against Jund, it's just devastating against them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Molten Rain is a bad, I just prefer something that represents a threat against the mirror rather than disruption. Also, it doesn't hurt that the Jund mirror generally goes on long enough to Unearth him, at which point he is just wins the game on the spot.
what does mancer do for u vs. jund? and don't tell me you've ever unearthed it
Nah i don't need her MD. she is useless if the opponent has no creatures in their deck. things like blightning and 1 drop black spells are much better vs combo/storm. that being said, the opposing deck is only going to really feel pain from lili if they run larger spells and not just a bunch of small ones. like vs. elves and mono red, she is useless. most of the time elves will just sac a mana dork and swing and kill her.
i only really found her helping me vs. U based midrange decks. lili really eats geist of saint traft. gotta b my favorite follow-up turn 3 play. against UW.
My problem with it is that it isn't a threat. Sure, it helps your nut draw, but when you're trying to grind someone out, or are in topdeck mode, it's usually not of too much use.
ok so if ur only siding it in against control, generally i'm siding out maelstrom pulse (removal). and generally control runs manlands. so in topdeck mode u kill their creeping tar pit or celestial colonnade and molten rain suddenly is VERY relevant.
Blightning is actually a bad card to bring in against the mirror, it's the same reason I board out Thoughtseize - Obstinate Baloth will just kick you in the teeth. Cards I like against the mirror are: Anathemancer (does crazy damage and then makes a great chump blocker and will kill your opponent if it comes back), Thrun (hexproof and Regenerate on a 4/4 body), other removal spells, Baloths (free 4 life AND 4/4 creature when your opponent charges up Lilly, what's not to like) - I'm not a huge fan of LD against Jund, it generally ends up being tempo loss due to the number of lands Jund plays, but some people love it.
disagree. bloodbraid elf into motlen rain is one of THE most tempo plays in magic. i love it when my elves make it rain. destruction.
i board 3-4 rains in against any deck with any kind of manland and definitely 4 against any control deck. having the mana potential advantage will be a deciding factor in any mirror MU.
think about it like this: you could literally play turns 1-3 identically, but if u hit one of the opponents lands turn 3-4 u have a mana advantage. not only have you delayed their bloodbraids by a turn or two, but you will gain an extra turn advantage in the game. kicker time: since this deck runs and needs 3 colors, chances are you can cut off an entire color in the mirror jund MU. cutting of GG cuts off finks, huge card in this MU. cutting off B gets rid of their removal. R maybe not so important, but looking at the mana bases in most lists the R lands, generally are attached to some other color.
EDIT: most important. molten rain deals 2 damage, every time if u play it right. also keeping up with the goal of beating your opponent's face in. this coupled with blightning and lightning bolt, i run 29 pts of damage post board. in addition to the 2 cards blightning takes and the tempo rain gives u.
still not sold completely about anything in RTR. and i stand by everything i ever said about inquisition of kozilek and thoughtseize in this deck with bloodbraid.
I suppose it would benefit a Black aggro deck better. When your at seven, and you cast a spell that sets up your combo next turn, five life is a big deal even if they have no field. Bump in the Night exists, as does Bloodghast
its good that u have that opinion but htis is the forum for mono black control. so moving forward. has anyone tested a classic list with phyrexian arena and damnation? and what about beseech the queen? seems good with different sweepers and/or win cons.
Not sure why MBC isn't running the Brand man. Isn't the point to control the game, then swing with the Fatties? Also, Dash Hopes seems great. Its a win/win card. A Lava Axe for two, or a black Counterspell. Seems like it would rip Storm a new one.
Soul Sisters is easy to crush if you are running Omen...
4 Valakuts + 2 Mountains = 72 DMG.
thats not a viable competative modern strategy. by then martyr deck will b gaining 30+ life per turn. i think t2 martyr of sands makes this MU rather unwinnable. is there a leyline that prevents lifegain? what about pithing needle
Tolaria West/Primeval Titan seem slow. This deck wants as many untapped lands as possible since it's playing 2 Valakuts and 9 shocklands. You can't tutor for any card filtering with Tolaria West. And what would you use EE for?
the idea is that disruption (countermagic/sweepers) is better for the deck rather than speed. The goal would be to defend the combo and play 1 land a turn and just win turn 7. All the while playing things like vendilion clique and volcanic fallout. as well as remand. and other countermagic
I'm really interested to hear more about this list. I already have Jund (albeit, short 2 goyfs and thoughtseizes) and I wanted to give Valakut a shot. How has it been feeling thus far?
blue is way better than black for this deck. permission/consistency is way better than thoughtseize/inquisiton and spot removal.
I can't say I agree when Valeriy when he says the first version is the weakest. First of all, Scapeshift is a single card combo, needing no Prismatic Omen. It's also the best version versus hate. Sowing Salt looks ridiculous, Blood Moon can be easily removed, graveyard hate is useless not to mention Boseiju.
He is right in that this version is slower than most combo decks (Storm is generally 1 turn faster) although those decks are waaaay more easy to disrupt (and that's what sideboard is for).
yes but if you're losing g1 vs. more than half the meta almost automatically, is this deck capable of winning a tourney?
theres def a mind game aspect to take advantage of. u can run 1 in SB and just auto win g2/3. if they don't see it till g3 then theres that possibility the opponent will just play valakuts freely leaving themselves vulnerable. but also u can target stomping ground or steam vents with it and just keep them from having enough lands to scapeshift for.
what does mancer do for u vs. jund? and don't tell me you've ever unearthed it
i only really found her helping me vs. U based midrange decks. lili really eats geist of saint traft. gotta b my favorite follow-up turn 3 play. against UW.
ok so if ur only siding it in against control, generally i'm siding out maelstrom pulse (removal). and generally control runs manlands. so in topdeck mode u kill their creeping tar pit or celestial colonnade and molten rain suddenly is VERY relevant.
disagree. bloodbraid elf into motlen rain is one of THE most tempo plays in magic. i love it when my elves make it rain. destruction.
i board 3-4 rains in against any deck with any kind of manland and definitely 4 against any control deck. having the mana potential advantage will be a deciding factor in any mirror MU.
think about it like this: you could literally play turns 1-3 identically, but if u hit one of the opponents lands turn 3-4 u have a mana advantage. not only have you delayed their bloodbraids by a turn or two, but you will gain an extra turn advantage in the game. kicker time: since this deck runs and needs 3 colors, chances are you can cut off an entire color in the mirror jund MU. cutting of GG cuts off finks, huge card in this MU. cutting off B gets rid of their removal. R maybe not so important, but looking at the mana bases in most lists the R lands, generally are attached to some other color.
EDIT: most important. molten rain deals 2 damage, every time if u play it right. also keeping up with the goal of beating your opponent's face in. this coupled with blightning and lightning bolt, i run 29 pts of damage post board. in addition to the 2 cards blightning takes and the tempo rain gives u.
edit 2: list post rtr:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Twilight Mire
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Treetop Village
1 Raging Ravine
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Grim Lavamancer
Removal (8):
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Maestrom Pulse
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
Support (4):
4 Blightning
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Obstinate baloth
1 thrun, the last troll
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Molten Rain
2 Ancient grudge
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Combust
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
still not sold completely about anything in RTR. and i stand by everything i ever said about inquisition of kozilek and thoughtseize in this deck with bloodbraid.
its good that u have that opinion but htis is the forum for mono black control. so moving forward. has anyone tested a classic list with phyrexian arena and damnation? and what about beseech the queen? seems good with different sweepers and/or win cons.
lol storm is gonna eat the 5 damage and proceed to win the game. dash hopes is bad. has anyone tested imp's mischief? seems good deflecting path or bolt or blightning. even something like thoughtseize + inquisition of kozelik
thats not a viable competative modern strategy. by then martyr deck will b gaining 30+ life per turn. i think t2 martyr of sands makes this MU rather unwinnable. is there a leyline that prevents lifegain? what about pithing needle
the idea is that disruption (countermagic/sweepers) is better for the deck rather than speed. The goal would be to defend the combo and play 1 land a turn and just win turn 7. All the while playing things like vendilion clique and volcanic fallout. as well as remand. and other countermagic
blue is way better than black for this deck. permission/consistency is way better than thoughtseize/inquisiton and spot removal.
i would run a tolaria west package with pact of negation, EE, and maybe pact of summoning for 3 PrimeTime Titans.
yes but if you're losing g1 vs. more than half the meta almost automatically, is this deck capable of winning a tourney?