Is it me or did you cut the best card of your deck, ancient stirrings?
Second of all, not playing 4 karn is very wrong...
Furthermore, steel hellkite turns on their creature removal, which every opponent will have... the card doesnt pay off.. too weak.
You say you know this deck since the beginning? Then I'm afraid I have bad news. Not noticing oblivion stone is way better then all is dust, that makes me doubt the relevance of your testing. Oblivion stone can destroy everything at eot, instant speed when in play. Aka, its your out to combo decks such as pod and twin.
Detritivore we came across but didnt test it yet. Possibly good vs scapeshift, but too slow kn the Mirror... which makes stone rain more relevant... no?
ok forgot to list stirrings.
I noticed oblivion stone i just think its too slow. it also kills our prophetic prisms and karns... not to mention our creatures. the good thing about all is dust, you can t3 it under the right conditions. which happen pretty often.
Imho cutting Terminates for Decays is a big mistake. One of our worst Match up is Naya Pod, and both Kiki and the Angel aren't killed by Decay. Pulse is of course quite bad in that match up because it's not an instant. Also, Terminate kills Celestial Colonnade, which is quite problematic for Jund, since it dodges all our removal. I'm currently running 3 Decay, 2 Terminate, 4 Bolt and 1 Pulse as my removal suite and i find it perfectly balanced
so i've been testing and cutting terminate is a mistake. but not for these reasons. colonnade is not a bid deal because of 2 tec edge and SB molten rain which always comes in againts UW control. my sb is designed to take down pod and control. i miss termns because of the mana curve. the list i posted above, has the curve too high. too many 3 drops, not enough 2s. so i supposed -1 blightning, -1 pulse, +2 temns. also in the SB -1 rain, +1 cage
i still want to operate under the theory that if we control the board we will eventually win any game becasue of sheer card advantage. inquisiton of kozelik and thoughtseize are very good, don't get me wrong but 1 for 1 is just average in this deck. every spell we cast has 2+ for 1 potential. think about bloodbraid elf 2 spells for 2RG. finks recurs once giving us 2 cards. also the lifegain to offset dark confidant. which literally gives an extra card every turn. lili is 2 for 1 every single time casting it. at least once per game. the instants are the only thing you could argue are 1 for 1, but if opponents are playing equips or enchantments, than u gain tempo and/or CA by playing in response. and instants are just better because if opponents don't account for them, than we will break most stalemates and win.
i would run IoK and TZ if blue was better in htis format, but the counterspells are weak in this format. spell snare and spell pierce are both easily played around. mana leak is just average. its a dead draw after turn 5. remand is just delaying the inevitable. and is really awful against bloodbraid. remove soul and negate are just too conditional to be consistent enough for any deck to play either one. flashfreeze is the only thing thats really efficient counter against us, and were ONLY going to see that games 2/3. if they SB it, which they probably don't. cryptic command is a powerful card, but also not very prevelant. and can be played around by dropping spells post-combat. chances are the blue deck is going to tap our team and draw a card with this spell, leaving us a free 2nd main phase to do wahtever we want. which is actually losing the blue deck's tempo...
-2 Deathrite
+2 Abrupt decay (bringing to 4 total)
Side:
-2 Combust
+2 Deathrite Shaman.
Too many decisions...I guess I'll goldfish some for a while and see what happens here.
i was kinda feelin the shamans as more sb GY hate route too. maybe some combo of him grafgidders cage would be enough??? but then anti-synergy with jund charm makes him more of a replacement than a complement. i really like his accel ability.
EDIT: has anyone playtested eternal witness at all? major card advantage potential. although with abrupt decay1GGGB in one turn is kinda iffy sometimes.
idk if i like slaughter games. persecute seems better against every deck games is. maybe apart from Ugr valakut. but we just lose to good ramp every game. their turn 4 is casting scapeshift for hte win on 7 lands is too fast for t4 games or persecute.
The tidehollow scullers really hurt early game against me, and all the burn and life loss from geralf can be pretty devastating. What do you guys recommend against this deck?
just play defenseively with finks and goyf. liliana is probably bad in this MU. just play smart and try and stick dark confidant.
Kitchen Finks is actually one of cards I'd be likely to board out against them due to anti-synergy with the cards that are good against them and the fact that lifegain is generally unimportant against combo decks that can kill you in a single turn regardless of you life total
i've never really look at finks like that. i always have liked them because they are a green aggressive creature, but i can see how your SB strat can be effective. my take on it is that your dropping your creature count bc their finks are gonna be way better than yours anyways. were going to lose that battle 9/10 times. so the gambit is to cut them and run grafdigger's cage? how many sb slots? 3? i can see how it really locks down pod. unless they have harmonic slivers or other artifact removal in opening hand, theyre gonna b screwed. i almost want to run 4 just to make sure, but is it necessary?
and then, sine your creature count is down, u run jund charm sweeper effectively, essentially becoming a control jund deck. not a traditional control build, but contorl style card. very interesting.
It's a bad match, but not that bad. Post board you need to adjust your gameplan, you need deny their fast mana with Jund Charm, fry their stuff withCombust and hate it out with Grafdigger's Cage
It's very difficult for them to tutor up a 6 mana creature following these, tutoring it via Pod is already difficult, if you keep blowing up their stuff, it's pretty difficult for them to develop their game plan
ok lol none of this makes sense to me.
1. jund charm does nothing to wall of roots. and turn 3 is far to late to sweep BoPs.
2. if u target their finks with combust, chances are ur gonna lose a lot of CA because of resto angel. thats exactly what they want us to do.
3. i don't see how cage is relevant in this MU. it hurts our finks just as much as theirs. i'd MUCH rather run deathrite shaman to prevent ONLY enemy finks from recurring.
i think rakdos charm is the best SB card for this deck. admittedly there is nothing we can do about that stupid heron thing, but as for kiki-jiki, charm works like a beauty to win after attackers are declared.
- it's not a discard spell (really liked having 6 discard spells)
Overall as you can see, I like the card very much. The resulting deck gains in early (and brutal) aggression. I'm not sure if 3 or 4 is the good number for this card. I also wonder if we can change the build a little to make it even more brutal but you would then lose some of the cards that make this deck so great. The land count is also debatable 24 or 25.
t2 molten rain is awesome on the play. also becuase u for sure RFGing their land t3. t2 blightning is WAY better, bc early game like that opponents usually will dump a land (or two) so t3 u will have a land target as well.
i used to think the land count was 25, but with shaman i htink it should be 24.
Tron decks will also ignore Shaman. There's no worry about little lifegain when there is an Eldrazi ont he other side of the table blowing up your permanents and bitting your life total in double digits.
Also, Jund lists will probably be a little different than the one you suggested. I'm honestly not seeing Jund cutting all manlands, since it makes you a lot weaker to mass removal. Engineered Explosives is still played, although not that frequently. RUG will play Bonfires and wipe your board. GR Tron will Pyroclasm / Stone all your creatures with relative ease. And, UW decks will just bring from the sideboards Supreme Verdict / Wrath of God because you are now heavier on creatures thus adding more value to their sweepers. Manlands help diminish that problem.
plz tell me u just disregarded the 2 raging ravine in my list? im trying to fit in more manlands, but the fetches are kinda needed for shaman
Interesting choice to cut 4 tree tops and 4 lilianas to play this card. I also think the only time you're only remembering the times this card is good. I'm sure there are plenty of times he does nothing the first couple turns of the game.
Obviously every card in every deck is going to be dead at some special apex of bad. but im tellin u man. those 3 deathrites boost mana early and then GY control the rest of the game. and that lifegain is soooooo important in most MUs. i can t1 deathrite and then t2 & t3 bob in a midrange/control MU and just just get so far ahead without having to worry so much about the dmg im taking. think about it, every single deck with the exception of scapeshift HAS to remove this card. if not, the life totals will be heavily in your favor after about 1-2 turns of activation. its the perfect t1 drop we could have asked for ever.
Have you seen the average Jund manabase? The average manabase for Jund contains about 3 basic land with a total of 24-25 land in all. Therefore, what Anathemancer does vs Jund is hit them for a ton of damage alongside a 2/2 body. I actually unearth him probably a lot more than you'd imagine, the mirror is as heavy on removal and disruption as you are so both decks are aiming to prolong the game by trading threats, etc. As a result, reaching 7 mana in a deck thats game plan is to slow its opponent down and is running 24-25 land really isn't that unreasonable.
define "ton of damage". what turn are u casting him? have u lost the game by then already realistically because he's a waste of a card in mirror?
also isn't this just auto lose vs. blue based control?
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
7 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
Spells
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Elsewhere Flask
4 Faith's Reward
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lotus Bloom
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Reshape
4 Second Sunrise
4 Serum Visions
2 Silence
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Echoing Truth
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grapeshot
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Silence
this just won a PT. how does it win?
and can anyone explain the SB?
ok forgot to list stirrings.
I noticed oblivion stone i just think its too slow. it also kills our prophetic prisms and karns... not to mention our creatures. the good thing about all is dust, you can t3 it under the right conditions. which happen pretty often.
what do all of you think of my list?:
4 Tower
4 PP
4 Grove of the burnwillows
1 academy ruins
1 eye of ugin
2 forest
4 chromatic sphere
4 chromatic star
4 sylvan scrying
4 ancient stirrings
3 explore
2 Relic of progenitus
2 prophetic prism
3 Pyroclasm
1 All is dust
3 Karn Liberated
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ulamog, the infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons torn
1 Steel Hellkite
AND WHAT BOUT detritivore vs. mirror + scapeshift.dec
so i've been testing and cutting terminate is a mistake. but not for these reasons. colonnade is not a bid deal because of 2 tec edge and SB molten rain which always comes in againts UW control. my sb is designed to take down pod and control. i miss termns because of the mana curve. the list i posted above, has the curve too high. too many 3 drops, not enough 2s. so i supposed -1 blightning, -1 pulse, +2 temns. also in the SB -1 rain, +1 cage
EDIT: new pages are killers:
4 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
2 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 blood crypt
2 forest
2 swmap
1 mountian
2 raging ravine
2 treetop village
3 blackcleave clifs
2 tectonic edge
4 goyf
4 bob
4 finks
4 BBE
2 eternal witness
1 thrun, the last troll
disruption (16):
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Blightning
3 abrupt decay
3 Liliana of the veil
2 maelstrom pulse
2 Terminate
3 Molten rain
3 deathrite shaman
2 ancient grudge
2 combust
3 grafdiggers cage
2 slaughter games (temp)
4 verdant catacombs
3 misty rainforest
2 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 blood crypt
2 forest
2 swmap
1 mountian
2 raging ravine
2 treetop village
3 blackcleave clifs
2 tectonic edge
4 goyf
4 bob
4 finks
4 BBE
2 eternal witness
1 thrun, the last troll
disruption (16):
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Blightning
3 abrupt decay
3 Liliana of the veil
3 maelstrom pulse
4 Molten rain
3 deathrite shaman
2 ancient grudge
2 combust
2 grafdiggers cage
2 slaughter games (temp)
i still want to operate under the theory that if we control the board we will eventually win any game becasue of sheer card advantage. inquisiton of kozelik and thoughtseize are very good, don't get me wrong but 1 for 1 is just average in this deck. every spell we cast has 2+ for 1 potential. think about bloodbraid elf 2 spells for 2RG. finks recurs once giving us 2 cards. also the lifegain to offset dark confidant. which literally gives an extra card every turn. lili is 2 for 1 every single time casting it. at least once per game. the instants are the only thing you could argue are 1 for 1, but if opponents are playing equips or enchantments, than u gain tempo and/or CA by playing in response. and instants are just better because if opponents don't account for them, than we will break most stalemates and win.
i would run IoK and TZ if blue was better in htis format, but the counterspells are weak in this format. spell snare and spell pierce are both easily played around. mana leak is just average. its a dead draw after turn 5. remand is just delaying the inevitable. and is really awful against bloodbraid. remove soul and negate are just too conditional to be consistent enough for any deck to play either one. flashfreeze is the only thing thats really efficient counter against us, and were ONLY going to see that games 2/3. if they SB it, which they probably don't. cryptic command is a powerful card, but also not very prevelant. and can be played around by dropping spells post-combat. chances are the blue deck is going to tap our team and draw a card with this spell, leaving us a free 2nd main phase to do wahtever we want. which is actually losing the blue deck's tempo...
i was kinda feelin the shamans as more sb GY hate route too. maybe some combo of him grafgidders cage would be enough??? but then anti-synergy with jund charm makes him more of a replacement than a complement. i really like his accel ability.
EDIT: has anyone playtested eternal witness at all? major card advantage potential. although with abrupt decay 1GGGB in one turn is kinda iffy sometimes.
idk if i like slaughter games. persecute seems better against every deck games is. maybe apart from Ugr valakut. but we just lose to good ramp every game. their turn 4 is casting scapeshift for hte win on 7 lands is too fast for t4 games or persecute.
just play defenseively with finks and goyf. liliana is probably bad in this MU. just play smart and try and stick dark confidant.
i've never really look at finks like that. i always have liked them because they are a green aggressive creature, but i can see how your SB strat can be effective. my take on it is that your dropping your creature count bc their finks are gonna be way better than yours anyways. were going to lose that battle 9/10 times. so the gambit is to cut them and run grafdigger's cage? how many sb slots? 3? i can see how it really locks down pod. unless they have harmonic slivers or other artifact removal in opening hand, theyre gonna b screwed. i almost want to run 4 just to make sure, but is it necessary?
and then, sine your creature count is down, u run jund charm sweeper effectively, essentially becoming a control jund deck. not a traditional control build, but contorl style card. very interesting.
if pod has creatures like kitchen finks, strangleroot geist, or murderous redcap and we have cage out, that sweeper can be really desructive. especailly cascaded off a BBE.
ok lol none of this makes sense to me.
1. jund charm does nothing to wall of roots. and turn 3 is far to late to sweep BoPs.
2. if u target their finks with combust, chances are ur gonna lose a lot of CA because of resto angel. thats exactly what they want us to do.
3. i don't see how cage is relevant in this MU. it hurts our finks just as much as theirs. i'd MUCH rather run deathrite shaman to prevent ONLY enemy finks from recurring.
i think rakdos charm is the best SB card for this deck. admittedly there is nothing we can do about that stupid heron thing, but as for kiki-jiki, charm works like a beauty to win after attackers are declared.
t2 molten rain is awesome on the play. also becuase u for sure RFGing their land t3. t2 blightning is WAY better, bc early game like that opponents usually will dump a land (or two) so t3 u will have a land target as well.
i used to think the land count was 25, but with shaman i htink it should be 24.
plz tell me u just disregarded the 2 raging ravine in my list? im trying to fit in more manlands, but the fetches are kinda needed for shaman
Obviously every card in every deck is going to be dead at some special apex of bad. but im tellin u man. those 3 deathrites boost mana early and then GY control the rest of the game. and that lifegain is soooooo important in most MUs. i can t1 deathrite and then t2 & t3 bob in a midrange/control MU and just just get so far ahead without having to worry so much about the dmg im taking. think about it, every single deck with the exception of scapeshift HAS to remove this card. if not, the life totals will be heavily in your favor after about 1-2 turns of activation. its the perfect t1 drop we could have asked for ever.
define "ton of damage". what turn are u casting him? have u lost the game by then already realistically because he's a waste of a card in mirror?
and i busted a nut testing deathrite shaman today.
it went all over the place still cleaning.
EVERYONE needs to test this card. its a blowout.
edit:
NEW LOOK JUND:
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Raging Ravine
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
Good Stuff:
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Blightning
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Molten Rain
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Combust
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Duress
2 Rakdos Charm
Deathrite is a house. He accels you. he requires added fetch lands which helps removing dead draws late game. he gains life to supplement bob. he controls GYs most importantly. shuts off gifts combo for unburial rites + iona. he shuts off snapcaster mage. eternal witness. goryo's vengeance. anything with persist/undying kitchen finks. think twice. past in flames.
my fav play is with 1 fetchland and T2 Blightning. bc usually the opponent dumps lands that u can use to pump t3 bloodbraid.