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- patbou
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Member for 9 years, 7 months, and 18 days
Last active Fri, Oct, 6 2023 20:42:19
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I have overlooked Hamlet Captain. This guy may take the place of Duskwatch Recruiter, and get a nice bonus on our Humans (and multiples stack!). Hit this guy with CoCo on attack or defense, and you should never be disappointed.
So, yes, let's build a community around the Human Ally variant!
I'm still looking for advices however on which deck to chose, but this discussion doesn't belong (and not anywhere else, according to the Moderator). You can PM if you have an opinion about the two decks. Thanks.
Note that opponent's best play would probably be to destroy Hanweir Garrison before it attacks, and not the flipped Captain or Warleader. In that case, you'll attack for 15 with 3 creatures, but still win if unblocked with Atarka's Command (burn 3 + 3 x +1/+1). If you don't have the Command, and instead the Champion, wait for next turn. The Captain's Human token will trigger the Lieutenant at the end step (now 3/3), but the Champion will bring him to 5/5 so he can survive Languish. The Warleader and flipped Captain will survive too (3 creatures, one +1/+1 counter each, and +1/+1 bonus to all Humans until end of turn) so you can attack for 12 and win next turn (3 x 4/4, even if you play no other cards).
Please don't quadruple post. If you made a mistake on a prior post, you can use the edit button on the bottom right. -- Lugger
Say my opponent pass the turn to me. I have priority and cast CoCo at the end of my opponent's turn. He decides to not respond to the spell while on the stack, and lets it resolves. Now suppose that CoCo adds two creatures to the Battlefield, and none with ETB effects. Can my opponent, still during his own end step, cast something else after CoCo has resolved? This confuses me a bit, as the stack is empty and he forego priority twice (ending the turn, and not responding to CoCo).
Would the answer be any different if any of my creatures had ETB effect? Thus the trigger goes on the stack and opponent can then respond to that? But if he decices to not respond to the ETB trigger from the creature brought in by CoCo resolving, can he still regain priority and do something before it's effectively my turn?
I ask this question in regard to Hanweir Militia Captain, mostly. Say it's one of the card CoCo revealed, and the two additionnal creatures bring the total to 4. Can my opponent kill one of the 4 still in the end step? If he can't or chose not to, and the Captain's transformation trigger goes on the stack during upkeep, can my opponent respond to that by destroying one my 4 creatures and "counter" the transformation? Or is the number of creatures (4) is checked only once when the trigger was put on the stack, or again as the trigger resolves?
Thanks.
Which deck do you think is the best between this one and my Naya Werewolves: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/711722-naya-werewolves?page=2.
I want to play CoCo while it's still Standard legal, in my own brewed deck (no way I'm playing Bant and copy the work of others).
The Werewolf deck feels more resilient, but slower and less aggressive than the Human Army deck. I tend to prefer resiliency, to ensure all matchups are good matchups. But the aggressivity of the Human Army deck, and the synergy there, is very appealing to me (as well as the little reminder of the good old days with Allies).
Please comment and help me take a decision... thanks!
With only Duskwatch Recruiter and Veteran Warleader in play (both 2/2 bears, non-threatening), pass the turn on T4. Opponent might get greedy, expecting CoCo, and wait one more turn to cast Languish or Radiant Flames (and instead Read the Bones, or something like that). Let's not disappoint him and cast CoCo, getting both Hanweir heroes (Garrison and Militia Captain). On our turn, Flip Captain (Recruiter is already flipped), and cast Thalia's Lieutenant (for 1) and Expedition Envoy.
The non-sick board will look like this :
3/3 flipped Recruiter (wolf form unaffected by Lieutenant)
9/9 flipped Captain
9/9 Warleader
3/4 Garrison
1/1 token
1/1 token
(Total of 26/27)
And the fresh creatures are :
4/4 Lieutenant
2/1 Envoy
=== Attack for 26.
This should be enough to kill opponent (Envoy can be tapped to grant Trample on Warleader). Don't get greedy yourself, and save your Heron's Grace Champion (cost reduced to 3, if you land dropped on T5) or Attarka's Command (if you missed T5 land drop) for later, in case your attack fails (one 9/9 gets blocked, or worst : destroyed and output is reduced to 16). If so, cast one or the other, after opponent does something (Command : burn 3 + 21 damage ; or Champion : 22 damage).
Don't do so if you can't win right now, however. Instead, save Champion or Command for opponent's turn to save your Army from Languish or Radiant Flames.
End of turn you add a 1/1 Human token, and trigger Lieutenant (5/5). Unless you have Atarka's Command, take no chance and cast the Champion for 3 during opponent's upkeep before Recruiter reverts to his Human form. Some creatures will survive even Languish : 4/5 Garrison and 6/6 Lieutenant (or 7/7 with Champion instead of Command) will survive, thus saving Warleader and/or flipped Captain in the process (even if one of them died previous turn, the survivor should still be a 5/5 at worst with Command). Then you win next turn!
So pass the turn (T4) with 4/4 on the Battlefield, and win next turn with opponent at 20 Life, or the other turn even if the worst happens!
Naya Human Army: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/729875-naya-human-army
Which one is the best deck? I want to play CoCo while it's still Standard legal, in my own brewed deck (no way I'm playing Bant and copy the work of others).
The Werewolf deck feels more resilient, but slower and less aggressive than the Human Army deck. I tend to prefer resiliency, to ensure all matchups are good matchups. But the aggressivity of the Human Army deck, and the synergy there, is very appealing to me (as well as the little reminder of the good old days with Allies).
Please comment and help me take a decision... thanks!
Naya Humans is an aggressive midrange (or Tempo-Tribal-Combo? I don't even know. You tell me.) deck that wins with synergistic combinations of small creatures, sometimes deployed instantly. The deck is fundamentally built around abusing Hanweir Garrison, but there are so many overlapping synergies that it can win without it. I consider it midrange because three colors of mana is a bit of a cluster and the key card can't attack before turn 4. This is not an established archetype, so try this if:
- You like turning creatures sideways
- You like exploiting synergistically powerful cards to kill people with explosive bursts of damage from out of nowhere
- You have some brewer in you
- You don't need to be playing the "best deck" for this particular event
This archetype is by no means solved. Please help us break it.Decklists
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Hamlet Captain
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Hanweir Garrison
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Heron's Grace Champion
2 Archangel Avacyn
4 Collected Company
3 Dromoka's Command
Lands 16W13G13R11C
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Canopy Vista
4 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
2 Hanweir Battlements
1 Mountain
4 Plains
1 Wastes
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Rending Volley
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Arlinn Kord
2 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Reality Smasher
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
2 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Hanweir Militia Captain
3 Hamlet Captain
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Creatures 4-5 cmc (3)
1 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Arlinn Kord
4 Collected Company
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Atarka's Command
Lands 16W-14G-13R (25)
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Fortified Village
2 Canopy Vista
4 Cinder Glade
4 Battlefield Forge
5 Plains
3 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Lambholt Pacifist
2 Gryff's Boon
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Atarka's Command
3 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Hanweir Garrison
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Hamlet Captain
1 Battlefield Forge
4 Canopy Vista
4 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Forest
1 Hanweir Battlements
3 Mountain
1 Needle Spires
6 Plains
Creature (25)
2x Dragonmaster Outcast
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Hanweir Garrison
3x Hanweir Militia Captain
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Lambholt Pacifist
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
2x Atarka's Command
4x Collected Company
2x Dromoka's Command
Enchantment (2)
2x Always Watching
2x Archangel Avacyn
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
2x Declaration in Stone
2x Dromoka's Command
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Planar Outburst
2x Heron's Grace Champion
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Thraben inspector
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Hamlet Captain
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Heron's Grace Champion
3 Gryff's Boon
2 Always Watching
Spells
2 Atarka's Command
2 Declaration in Stone
Lands
4 Canopy Vista
3 Fortified Village
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Hanweir Battlements
2 Game Trail
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
Note: 1 Evolving Wilds added to make 60 and improve fixing
Cards
Core cards are bolded
1 Drop
Dragonmaster Outcast: Pro - human, powerful in a board stall; Con - slow, fragile. Sideboard option against decks without much removal like Bant Company
Expedition Envoy: Pro - nice power for the cost, Ally synergies; Con - dies in a small breeze, how realistic is it to try to exploit Ally synergies in addition to Human synergies?.
Kytheon, Hero of Akros: Pro - powerful early play; Con - dies to Liliana, needs two other attackers to flip. Best in aggressive builds that can reliably attack with three creatures on turn 3.
Thraben Inspector: Pro - cheap, card advantage, decent flicker target; Con - not impactful in a board stall.
Town Gossipmonger: Pro - Human, aggressive power; Con - needs other early creatures for maximal effectiveness. Probably better in more aggressive builds. Worth testing.
2 Drop
Abbot of Keral Keep: Pro - conditional card advantage, can get buff from spells; Con - extremely conditional card advantage, dies super easily.
Den Protector: Pro - Sometimes a human, card advantage; Con - not good as a CoCo hit, slow. Sideboard option, good against control decks
Duskwatch Recruiter: Pro - card advantage, ; Con - expensive card advantage, no human benefits when flipped. Best against control decks for card advantage, but mana savings when flipped can be quite nice.
Hamlet Captain: Pro - conditional anthem; Con - doesn't buff self, just a bear without other creatures. Recommendation: This thing doesn't look like much, but it increases damage amazingly. Run 4
Hanweir Militia Captain: Pro - When flipped, it gets huge and spawns creatures that trigger Thalia's Lieutenant; Con - when do we get ahead enough to flip it? conditional. Good in board stalls, recommend at least 2 in 75, but main or side?
Knight of the White Orchid: Pro - Conditional ramp, first strike gets better with buffs; Con - hard to cast, doesn't really benefit much else.
Lambholt Pacifist: Pro - big, wears a counter really well; Con - sometimes can't attack, no human benefits when flipped.
Reckless Bushwhacker: Pro - anthem effect with a body that combines really well with Atarka's Command; Con - not a human, not good without a board and another cheap spell. Strong sideboard option for aggressive builds. Don't forget the leather jackat.
Selfless Spirit: Pro - good protection from R-based sweepers; Con - no human synergy, dies to Liliana.
Thalia's Lieutenant: Pro - gets huge, buffs other humans; Con - can just die to Liliana +. Run 4
3 Drop
Eldrazi Displacer: Pro - able to interact positively against Spell Queller, reset blockers, blow up tokens, knock counters off creatures, get ETB effects on demand; Con - mana-intensive, no human synergies, requires colorless mana, just a cheap hill giant without targets.
Hanweir Garrison: Pro - conditionally powerful; Con - forces R (seriously, if you don't value this card, run GW and have much better mana). Run 4
Thalia, Heretic Cathar: Pro - good against multicolor and creature decks; Con - dies easily. run 1-2 in Company versions
Tireless Tracker: Pro - card advantage!, can get huge; Con - dies easily, best as a 4-drop. run 3-4 if you are running Company.
4 Drop
Heron's Grace Champion: Pro - instant speed anthem can tilt combat math, lifelink can swing races, lifelink body continues to affect races; Con - not a CoCo hit, body is not huge for the cost.
5 Drop
Archangel Avacyn: Pro - ; Con - can wrath our own board.
Reality Smasher: Pro - a sudden, hard to remove beating; Con - not human, not a CoCo hit, needs colorless, expensive. Sideboard option for slower builds that can support colorless.
Sigarda, Heron's Grace: Pro - hard to kill, can prevent discard and burn affects, evasive; Con - expensive.
Gryff's Boon: Pro - cheap evasion that can recur, good for getting in those last few points of damage; Con - expensive revision is prone to being blown out.
Rending Volley: Pro - uncounterable cheap removal, good against Spell Quellers, other Spirits and Things; Con - highly conditional.
Atarka's Command: efficient anthem, burn, defense against flyers, ramp; amazing package, but is it better than Heron's Grace Champion overall? How many Collected Company misses can you afford? How many noncreature cards can you afford?
Declaration in Stone: Pro - can deal with Kalitas and other big creatures efficiently; Con - card disadvantage. I am likely incorrect to not be running it. Recommend at least 1 in the 75.
Dromoka's Command: Pro - conditional removal, increased creature size, enchantment removal; Con - removal in response is a blowout, useless without creatures, not good against hexproof, larger or deathtouch creatures.
Hallowed Moonlight: Pro - good vs dredge, CoCo, Ishkanah and cantrips; Con - doesn't advance our game plan.
Always Watching: Pro - another anthem; Con - not a CoCo hit, Dromoka's Command. Consider for non-CoCo aggressive builds.
Eerie Interlude: Pro - potential sweeper protection; Con - expensive, not a CoCo hit, heavily conditional.
Stasis Snare: Pro - Removal; Con - bad against Dromoka's Command.
Arlinn Kord: Pro - many helpful abilities; Con - slow, non-CoCo, not human.
Collected Company: Pro - Efficient for mana and card advantage, instant; Con - requires many (24+) small creatures, being a 4-drop makes it more midrange than aggressive. Remember to start siding these out if your 1-3 mana creature count drops with your sideboard plan.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar: Pro - a real beating, often leaves a token even when removed, can be a permanent anthem; Con - hard to protect against Bant Company, not a CoCo hit, not very synergistic, hard to cast. Strong sideboard option against control.
Tragic Arrogance: Pro - powerful sweeper gets around Selfless Spirits; Con - runs counter to our game plan.
Hanweir Battlements: Pro - colorless source, giving haste is great, can meld with Hanweir Garrison; Con - doesn't help fixing. 1-2 recommended
Westvale Abbey: Pro - colorless source, can make more humans, Ormandahl[/card]; Con - doesn't help fixing, benefits are slow and conditional.
Sideboarding
This is just a list of cards that are recommended (or not) in particular matchups. Without knowing your exact deck, I can't recommend numbers
- Bant Company: +Hallowed Moonlight; +Hanweir Militia Captain; +Rending Volley; +Dragonmaster Outcast; +Dromoka's Command; +Sigarda, Heron's Grace; +Thalia, Heretic Cathar; +Heron's Grace Champion; +Archangel Avacyn; -Duskwatch Recruiter; -Collected Company; -Hamlet Captain. Interaction to kill Spell Quellers is good. If you can win with early beats, go for it. Otherwise try to go wide and tall. Lifelink can help in the race. Probably not favored, but needs more testing.
- Control: +Gideon, +Smasher, +Arlinn, +Den Protector, +Thalia, +Sigarda, +Champion, -Command, -Displacer, -Militia Captain, -CoCo
- Wr Humans: + Dromoka's Command, +2 Champion, -2 Displacer, -1 Tracker
- Burn, Thermo Alchemist: +Dromoka's Command, +Champion, +Arlinn, +Sigarda, -Displacer, -Tracker, -Avacyn
- Dredge: +Hallowed Moonlight, +Thalia, +Champion, +Gideon, +Pacifist, +Declaration, -Dromoka's Command, -Duskwatch. You are the beatdown. Killing their stuff isn't great when it just comes back. Duskwatch is too slow.
- Delirium: -Command, +Gideon, Smasher, Hanweir Militia Captain, Heron's Grace Champion
Temur Emerge:2 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Hamlet Captain
4 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
Instants (10)
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Incendiary Flow
2 Declaration in Stone
Lands 16W-14G-13R (25)
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Fortified Village
2 Canopy Vista
4 Cinder Glade
4 Battlefield Forge
5 Plains
3 Forest
1 Mountain
The set of removals is particularly good to prevent Emerge on the small creatures. Tireless Tracker is prone to an early game KoRe, but it helps digging for our removals. Also, opponent will probably telegraph you KoRe is about to be played. Check his lands : no red, that's green light for us. If there are, and open lands on turn 3 or 4, you can try to play around. Like : cast Lieutenant before combat to force opponent to cast KoRe before the trigger resolves. You'll lose many creatures, but you'll at least keep the new tokens after you attack with Garrison (otherwise you would have less board presence after KoRe).
No anthem saddens me a lot. But the real thing is that it's more important dealing with Temurge's early creatures.
Declaration in Stone is great dealing with Spider tokens (and opponent gets no Clue), and Emerged Eldrazi.
Videos
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Here's the original first post that started all this:
I don't know if this belongs here, or under [Proven] W/x Humans. Someone let me know if I should move it there (but it's so different!).
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Veteran Warleader
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Firemantle Mage
4 Heron's Grace Champion
Instants (6)
4 Collected Company
2 Atarka's Command
Lands (24)
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
4 Game Trail
4 Cinder Glade
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Plains
The concept of this deck is to abuse CoCo with a different view on Humans and Allies, building a token army (Captain and Garrison) to feed the Generals (Lieutenant, Captain and Warleader), and the whole lot pumped by Lieutenant, Champion and Atarka's Command. CoCo is there to accelerate the process, Recruiter to dig the deck for combo pieces (or vomit our hand on the table once flipped ; no other deck can benefit more from this than this one, I think), Mage as a finisher once the board is set, and finally Envoy as not only an early aggressor and to make Lieutenant worthy to cast on T2, but also to support the Warleader and give him trample or first strike (Mage can do the same).
Note that Thalia's Lieutenant and Heron's Grace Champion both cheat in this deck : Whenever one or the other ETB, they're not granting the usual a +1/+1 to everything, but in fact +2/+2 to all the Generals (Lieutenant, flipped Captain, Warleader). Both can be done at instant speed to screw opponent's math (Champion has Flash and Thalia's Lieutenant can be hit with by CoCo).
Here's the best play :
T1 Expedition Envoy
T2 Thalia's Lieutenant, attack for 3 with Envoy
T3 Hanweir Garrison, attack for 5 with Envoy and Lieutenant
T4 Attack with everything (tokens boosting the Lieutenant), cast Heron's Grace Champion to support the cause (again boosting the lieutenant, and +1/+1 lifelink to the 5 creatures on the board), deal 17 damage and gain 17 Life. That's 25 damage total, and should close the deal).
Here's a slower but very impressive play :
T1 Expedition Envoy
T2 Hanweir Militia Captain, attack for 2
T3 Veteran Warleader
T4 Pass the turn, cast CoCo and get Hanweir Garrison and Thalia's Lieutenant (seeing one another, both will get a +1/+1 counter, as well as the 3 Humans already there)
T5 Flip Captain, cast Firemantle Mage (triggers Lieutenant and itself), attack with everything (with the 2 tokens feeding the 3 Generals) and support with Atarka's Command : Envoy is 4/3, flipped Captain and Warleader are both 10/10, Lieutenant is 4/4, Garrison is 4/5, the two tokens are 2/2 and all have Menace (and Warleader can get trample or first strike by tapping the Mage). Total of 36 damage and a lot of evasion.
So... What do you think? Any suggestion?
4 Kessig Prowler
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Geier Reach Bandit
4 Silverfur Partisan
4 Spirit of the Hunt
Instants (12)
4 Dromoka's Command
4 Howlpack Resurgence
4 Collected Company
4 Game Trail
4 Fortified Village
4 Cinder Glade
2 Canopy Vista
1 Evolving Wilds
7 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Shrill Howler
3 Hermit of the Natterknolls
3 Moonlight Hunt
3 Ulrich of the Krallenhorde
3 Arlin Kord
4 Kozilek's Return
The above list has been constantly updated. The main deck is done, as far as I am concerned. I have to put some more thoughts on the sidedeck (in fact, the cards listed under sideboard were there just to discuss and debate).
What would you cut to make room for the Hermit? The deck seems so tight...
Have you tested it? Or is it just how you feel about it?
I agree it's not the same kind of bang for your buck than with Bant. But CoCo allow me to skip a turn and transform (read : +1/+1) and still add 2 creatures to the board without losing a turn doing so (card advantage, and probably 6cmc for the price of 4), something that would otherwise take me a long time doing so, cost me more mana and more cards *and* force me to flip back.
I admit it's pure theory at this point : I have to test it out. But the reasoning seems fine on paper...
BTW, about splashing white for Dromoka's Command : I'm aiming at T4, so it's not as intensive on the manabase.
I like that suggestion. Will do so. Thanks!
OUT Moonlight Hunt : This card is the just the right thing to compound on the tribe's strenght and numbers to kill big and fat creatures (except Emrakul, who's protected from instants). But Dromoka's Command is fine most of the time, a great tool box the rest of the time. As the Hermit, Moonlight Hunt seems most fit in the sidedeck, to be played against Midrange creatures.
OUT Shrill Howler : It's evasion ability is akin to Den Protector, and could work well with Howlpack Resurgence and Dromoka's Command. Flipped, it's ability tokens is great. Sadly, these are Eldrazi Horrors, and not Wolves, but at 3/2 I can deal with that. Problem is flipping the Werewolf : it costs 6 mana to do so, something not likely before turn 8, which is far too late to be worthy. Also, it competes with Geier Reach Bandit, Silverfur Partisan and Spirit of the Hunt at 3cmc. Hard decision, but this feels OUT to me.
OUT Wax the Moon : This card is bad. Basically a +1/+1 Trample for 2cmc with all the Werewolves in the deck, except for Kessig Prowler (who could really benefit from it). But playing this card for this single purpose is just a waste of space in the deck.
BTW, if you could look at the deck I,ve brewed, and comment on it, I would really appreciate.