Yea remember when everyone was saying ZOMG PRE-BAN TEMPORAL MASTERY and how Vexing Devil was "HOLY **** WTF POWER CREEP LOL GG WIZARDS" and not even talking about Bonfire of the Damned, Angel of Serenity, and claiming Restoration Angel was "too slow and too low impact"? Nobody even talked about Delver of Secrets, people thought Geist was "easy to block"
Remember when Sphinx's Revelation was a 5 dollar mythic because everyone said "it's just worse than Blue Sun's Zenith since it isn't a win condition and you don't get it back"?
The majority of people on this website can't evaluate cards for ****, there aren't very many great cards spoiled so far, but it's just over 1/3 of the set, hardly enough to claim it's jank.
I really wish people would learn how to evaluate cards.
Listing the 2 choices and saying "either is good, so this card is good" (which is basically what most are saying) is a horrible way to look at it, since that isn't how the card works. You are never going to get a haste creature when you want one, and vica versa.
Your opponent will ALWAYS choose which is better for them, the cards are supposed to look efficient.
Having said that, the fact that these are creatures and not 1-shot deal spells, does make them better overall, I still don't think this card is very good. The fact that both modes are similar is relevant however.
I don't think there are any "broken" cards. However, the cards that I foresee many complaints about (think Sphinx's Rev, Thragtusk)
Polukranos, World Eater
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Heliod, God of the Sun (especially in conjuction with Planeswalkers)
are the most glaring offenders to me. Any of the gods that do well are going to be complained about for being indestructible. Glare of Heresy handles 2 problems in Elspeth and Heliod, and I think??? they made a 2G Revoke Existance, so answers exist at least, but people won't learn to play them immediately.
I also suspect the scry lands to make people mad when their opponents ALWAYS have the right cards.
You can dig for answers, it just requires a larger amount of internal redundancy. This card is going to essentially be an instant speed draw 3 most of the time. Need removal now? Play a bunch so you get it in both piles. Need mana? Make sure you build your deck so you're likely to have 2 lands in 5 cards (6 actually couting draw for next turn).
It's not FoF.
It's not bad.
It's instant CA at a sick rate.
If this was 2UR instant draw3 people would be gaga.
It just has the added bonus of thought scour-esque value.
2UR draw 3 instant would be gaga, this is not that however. drawing 3 cards that your opponent gets to essentially choose and know about isn't equivalent to "draw 3 cards".
This is punisher mechanic plus. Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven both gave you the ultimate say on what you got, and could both be manipulated, and aren't the punisher mechanic, since you have complete control over what cards you ultimately get.
This card can too, so it's not exactly in the same vein as browbeat, molten influence, Breaking Point, vexing devil, blazing salvo, etc, but they always give you what they want you to have, this is a skill tester card for both players, so that's something at least.
Where has Relentless seen play in Legacy? Also, congratulations on buying what are pretty obvious good cards and "warning" against 3 of 4 obvious bad cards. I made a couple hundred off Bonfires, but I don't act like I know everything.
It's been a staple in Maverick and the BUG decks for several months
It's been in 37 decks that top 32'd a legacy open or Invitational legacy portion, 28 in the top 16, 16 in the top 8, 8 in the top 4, 4 in the finals, and once in 1st place.
What an unbelievably miserable set. I mean, some of the missing rares, Indestructibility, Planar Cleansing, Silence...were people actually clamoring to see these again? They barely saw play the previous 2-3 times they've had a go-round. Not really caring at all about Slivers (which is mostly limited fodder as it is), it's just like Dragon's Maze - bust a pack and pray it's 1 of 5-6 rares/mythics or it isn't worth the price of the pack...c'mon.
If you're buying/opening packs to make money you're doing it wrong. I agree the set isn't very good, like RTR (which was absurd), but it's better than DGM (which is absurdly bad).
I really doubt that WoTC wants U/W delver to be a deck again on standard.
Mana Leak wouldn't do that by itself.
People really need to understand the actual problem. Which was the way in which mana leak was being used. Mana Leak had been around for years and was perfectly reasonable as a defensive spell.
Enter Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft, and all of the sudden it's an offensive spell. The overpowered creatures in conjunction with Mana Leak was the issue, not the card itself.
Without Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Vapor Snag, Gut Shot, Dismember, Mutagenic Growth, the delver deck won't exist. It thrived on tempo, being able to cast multiple spells per turn. You can't do that with Think Twice and Dissipate.
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Remember when Sphinx's Revelation was a 5 dollar mythic because everyone said "it's just worse than Blue Sun's Zenith since it isn't a win condition and you don't get it back"?
The majority of people on this website can't evaluate cards for ****, there aren't very many great cards spoiled so far, but it's just over 1/3 of the set, hardly enough to claim it's jank.
1
Listing the 2 choices and saying "either is good, so this card is good" (which is basically what most are saying) is a horrible way to look at it, since that isn't how the card works. You are never going to get a haste creature when you want one, and vica versa.
Your opponent will ALWAYS choose which is better for them, the cards are supposed to look efficient.
Having said that, the fact that these are creatures and not 1-shot deal spells, does make them better overall, I still don't think this card is very good. The fact that both modes are similar is relevant however.
1
Polukranos, World Eater
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Heliod, God of the Sun (especially in conjuction with Planeswalkers)
are the most glaring offenders to me. Any of the gods that do well are going to be complained about for being indestructible. Glare of Heresy handles 2 problems in Elspeth and Heliod, and I think??? they made a 2G Revoke Existance, so answers exist at least, but people won't learn to play them immediately.
I also suspect the scry lands to make people mad when their opponents ALWAYS have the right cards.
1
2UR draw 3 instant would be gaga, this is not that however. drawing 3 cards that your opponent gets to essentially choose and know about isn't equivalent to "draw 3 cards".
This is punisher mechanic plus. Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven both gave you the ultimate say on what you got, and could both be manipulated, and aren't the punisher mechanic, since you have complete control over what cards you ultimately get.
This card can too, so it's not exactly in the same vein as browbeat, molten influence, Breaking Point, vexing devil, blazing salvo, etc, but they always give you what they want you to have, this is a skill tester card for both players, so that's something at least.
1
Needle doesn't stop Punishing Fire or Grove of the Burnwillows, Fire has a triggered ability and Grove is a mana ability.
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It's been a staple in Maverick and the BUG decks for several months
It's been in 37 decks that top 32'd a legacy open or Invitational legacy portion, 28 in the top 16, 16 in the top 8, 8 in the top 4, 4 in the finals, and once in 1st place.
1
If you're buying/opening packs to make money you're doing it wrong. I agree the set isn't very good, like RTR (which was absurd), but it's better than DGM (which is absurdly bad).
1
Mana Leak wouldn't do that by itself.
People really need to understand the actual problem. Which was the way in which mana leak was being used. Mana Leak had been around for years and was perfectly reasonable as a defensive spell.
Enter Delver of Secrets and Geist of Saint Traft, and all of the sudden it's an offensive spell. The overpowered creatures in conjunction with Mana Leak was the issue, not the card itself.
Without Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Vapor Snag, Gut Shot, Dismember, Mutagenic Growth, the delver deck won't exist. It thrived on tempo, being able to cast multiple spells per turn. You can't do that with Think Twice and Dissipate.
1
They reworded the effect probably to make it so it worked like they originally intended. To be a temporary exile effect.
Your excessive hissy fit is far more offensive than any change wizards has made.