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  • posted a message on Advise needed for Daxos The Returned deck
    Quote from weltkrieg »
    Has anyone here considered a daxos deck that focuses on death triggers/constellation triggers by using daxos as a source of these with zero experience counters? I have been theorycrafting a daxos the returned that focuses on solemnity to prevent the experience counters. I was thinking of cards like black market (yes, I know there is dis-synergy with solemnity, but very likely I won't see both every game and it's a good card), grave pact and cousins, etc.


    May not come together as easily as described, as the Grave Pacts, Solemnity etc are all enchantments, which will make trying to time them around Daxos awkward when you deliberately want to not get experience. It'd probably be more reliable to go deep on free sac outlets (Altar of Dementia, Martyr's Cause, what have you) and use that as one of the deck's possible modes of operation. That, and the fierce Starfield of Nyx nonbo does what you want as well :p
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Advise needed for Daxos The Returned deck
    I can see what you're going for, the list does seem more cohesive. However, you've still got some weird stuff kicking around. I will never understand your love for those 6cmc wipes that aren't Extinguish All Hope. For whatever reason, you kept those in over Rout. You reintroduced Archetype of Finality yet lost Razaketh, the Foulblooded. A number of sections in my previous posts in the thread still hold true, so you can re-read those if you want. I'll add some more findings from more recent times:
    • Surprise surprise, having a mana sink out of the command zone makes the deck really like its mana. I caved in and put in Cabal Coffers (with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth already waiting in the 99), plus Deserted Temple for overkill. Weathered Wayfarer is now a very serious threat. Let it live a few turn cycles and things are looking pretty good. Splurging for full fetches + Crucible of Worlds is probably overkill though. On a similar note, the consistent land get of Sword of Rampant Growth is not to be underestimated.
    • Another thing that's helped the consistency of my build is more focus on card selection. Sensei's Divining Top crutches a bit on the whole fetches + Crucible setup of infinite money to be a relevant recommendation, but you could easily slot in Doom Whisperer. Skim useless stuff off the top when everything is under control, dig hard for an out if in dire straits.
    • Some other choice recent includes are Smothering Tithe, Cathars' Crusade and Slaughter the Strong. Smothering Tithe keeps you rubber banded to decks that typically slip out the easiest from my build's speed bumps, and can build up to ludicrous levels. Who would have thought that people tend to draw cards in EDH. Cathars' Crusade is a one-card win con, and it helps me feel better about missing experience counters if Daxos gets hated out. It's a beautiful little manifestation of inevitability, even if it comes with some logistics annoyances. Slaughter the Strong is a brutal board gut that Daxos lives through.
    • My meta hates Teferi's Protection by now. A hilarious catch-all answer, most recently won me the game as a simple fog. Dodge board resets, fireballs, whatever is being problematic at the moment. It costs a pretty penny though, thanks to its relative scarcity.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Daxos is Baxos
    How about Cloudstone Curio? It may not be a formal draw engine, but you can bounce enchants off each other to storm up experience, and it also works as a versatile protection piece in case you need to dodge some removal. I know you're not super fond of it, but it does work in my build. However, you just cut two cards I'd qualify as top 10 in my list, so I guess mileage varies.

    I'm curious as to your motivation for including entire nonland space wipes. How have those been working out? I always write off the enchantment space as holy cows and stay away from this sort of effect.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Daxos the Returned - Enchantment Speed Bumps Galore
    Quote from Nsolarz »
    First off, thank you so much for this decklist. I've been running a slightly budget version of your list for almost a year now with great success. One of the cards im considering adding is Teysa Karlov for the token anthem effect; have you considered this at all? I also added Revel in Riches alongside smothering tithe for the secondary win-con.


    Glad to hear it was of some use Smile I'm not sure Teysa Karlov's token buffs are strong enough to merit a non-enchantment slot. Is it the fact it's a combination of vigilance and lifelink that's tempting? There are plenty of options granting either already, sometimes with cute perks (Brave the Sands, Whip of Erebos).

    As for Revel in Riches, analysed in the current deck vacuum it feels a bit cute. Old me already accused Black Market of being too variable, and in a vacuum this is a sidegrade with a bit more of a downgrade feel to it. However, it has to be said that the occasional end step Rout cheese win could be hilarious. Also, I've been playing a whole bunch of EDH recently, and unsurprisingly the deck's performance is closely correlated to how dumb its mana base gets during the game. An undisrupted Weathered Wayfarer setting me up with all the power lands puts me in a stupidly good spot, and I don't even necessarily need a haymaker to close out the game due to the sheer volume of mana I can sink. In the Command Zone game statistics analysis, the unsurprising conclusion was that the person with the most lands tended to clean house. We might not get to green ramp, but our lands are high impact, and a corollary on mana total should still hold up. Should maximising mana generation be pursued? If so, how?

    The most mana-efficient way would be more rocks. Good return of investment, but susceptible to getting shot out, especially if there's too many of them around. Also, most of the good ones don't offer coloured, which limits their mana sink potential. Land ramp's the most resilient, which is good. However, there's really not that much land ramp left out of the 99 that would make sense to include. Burnished Hart is probably the best, and that got axed in a general fat trimming update a while back. I trialled Thaumatic Compass in the past and wasn't impressed, gave Conqueror's Galleon a spin recently and was also somewhat underwhelmed. Kor Cartographer is a Depression Automaton lookalike that's not quite as cool, Knight of the White Orchid is unreliable. As such, maybe the morbid enchantment options (Black Market, Revel in Riches) are indeed the way to go? I already mentioned old me not being super keen on this sort of effect, but old me was stuck with variably performing versions of the deck. Maybe back then there were more pressing matters to sort out? I guess all this will take some thinking and testing, and not even the previously evaluated options are off the table. Any input would be appreciated.

    Also, as I'm already making a post, may as well leave this little nugget of the nuttest draw the deck ever had for posterity. Think I went first, just to add insult to injury. Also, its absolute nutness was predictably driven by mana, which adds further relevance to my upstream musings.
    1. land, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Depression Automaton
    2. land, Gilded Lotus, Daxos, Land Tax
    3. Thoughtrender Lamia, Smothering Tithe, unison table scoop
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Kumena and the Magical Untapping Fish Sticks
    RNA made a cute thing, let's slot it in.



    In fairness, the Rootwater Diver never really did anything. He was cheap, he had a weird silver bullet clause that never came online, he tapped for Kumena fodder. Benthic Biomancer satisfies those requirements, but trades the silver bullet clause for a loot on counter placement. Hey cool, guess what Kumena does when not just straight drawing? It's a minor quality of life upgrade, but it's pretty cool nevertheless.

    The deck's in a pretty good place right now. It plays pretty smooth, it doesn't get quite as negative a reception as it did a few iterations ago. Darting Merfolk has superseded Surgespanner as Merrow Reejerey's combo friend, but those are still kept in check by needing multiple pieces to do a thing (although they've come together a bit too often in the last few draws, leading to some grumbling). Some part of me wants to just push the pedal to the metal and put Earthcraft back in, aided with Aluren (which performed disturbingly in goldfishing). However, given the deck's current relative strength, that would make it a heavy persona non grata in my meta. I'm pretty content finding weird ways in which all the pieces value town together in unexpected ways sometimes, e.g. a Seedborn Muse + Paradox Engine + Waterfront Bouncer + Mystic Snake soft counter wall that just assembled itself at some point.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Official]] The Top 50 List (Week Two: Voting on Cards to Remove)
    I support Razaketh, Doom Whisperer and Pitiless Plunderer.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Daxos is Baxos
    Welcome back. There's no escape Wink

    It's interesting to see you go for a Grave Pact'y build, with some sac outlets. However, the value the outlets themselves provide isn't the best, I guess you'll agree with me. As such, I'm curious how the thing will hold up in practice. You also appear to be missing the best one of all, Big Ole Raz. Doesn't seem like a conscious omission as you've rammed quite a few tutors and stuff in here now.

    I'm also quite curious about the Conqueror's Galleon. There are so many cool flip lands in that set that I somehow ignored on release. How's it playing for you?
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Official]] The Top 50 List (Week Two: Voting on Cards to Remove)
    On a commander specific level, EDHREC is absolute entry level. Pop open Daxos the Returned and see the system in action. The card pool is aggressively polluted by countless lists that just took the precon, swapped a few cards around and dumped it online. There are more lists running Underworld Coinsmith than Skybind, a ridiculous auto-include. Razaketh, the Foulblooded, probably the most game-ending card in my meticulously maintained list, doesn't even show up - all of five (out of over a thousand!) decks registered there run him.

    The top card sections are a bit variable. For example, Naya's all about the dinosaurs because of XLN/RIX dino mania. As such, an argument could be made for reanimating this list here as a manually curated take on the idea. I do agree that it would probably have to be a periodic megavote thing, with my proposal of the system being a per-category vote on inclusions that starts with the current best cards as options, but with the possibility for the voter to add other cards from the category, and cast a total of up to 25 or however many votes. It's not ideal, but this is a bit hard to conceptualise in a practical manner.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Daxos the Returned - Enchantment Speed Bumps Galore
    So yeah, the whole set is out. The only non-Mana Study cards meriting some amount of thought are Ethereal Absolution and Font of Agonies. The former kind of reminds me of The Immortal Sun with its kitchen sink design, but I don't feel it's worth a slot here at six mana (especially as the curve's still trying to watch its figure). The latter is pretty cool in Christmas Land, but there's not a whole lot of life-paying effects going on. You'd pretty much need to land Doom Whisperer, Necropotence or Big Ole Raz for this to properly come online, but if you have any of those you're doing just fine.



    As explained in the post above, Mana Study has a very good dynamic going on. If somebody's drawing tons of stuff and running away with the game a bit, the card compensates you handsomely and keeps you in sight of them. The cut is to trim the rock population a little, as for some illogical reason running five rocks feels a lot more vulnerable than four. The deck's in a pretty good spot right now - Doom Whisperer settled admirably, and causes alarm levels akin to a game-ending haymaker upon hitting the board due to his dig flexibility. Possible future directions include the wipes that have been mentioned, or dusting off my mono white hatebear collection (think Aven Mindcensor, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, those sort of guys). However, those would be unpleasant to play against more so than just being throttled on spells per turn or whatever other mild aggravations the deck currently rolls out, so not going to happen. On a similar note, ran the list past Ebline, who decreed that the only real way to make a better Daxos would be to build him pretty hard stax and use the dudebros as fuel for various unpleasantness. I'm quite happy with the flexible, toolbox'y thing that's currently going on. It would be nice if I figured out ways to get some more Daxos independence that doesn't suck with the commander around though.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Forbidding Spirit
    Quote from SnowBunny »
    Like pillowfort decks needed another card to be utter annoying. Oh and in Commander you do have access to Helm of the Host which ensures triggers every turn.


    Might just be me, but you may want to aim a little higher in your Helm duplication schemes :p

    Card is cute, but then you remember Windborn Muse exists. To the bulk pile it goes.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Daxos the Returned - Enchantment Speed Bumps Galore
    Having gotten two separate playtest sessions in with the thing (about 7-8 games total, with the Mana Study in the opening hand as a replacement of Thran Dynamo), the card has an interesting dynamic to it. In a draw-free vacuum, where the person just topdecks their card for turn and that's that, a point is hit where they get a mana base so sculpted they can afford the 2 per turn and treasure generation is turned off. However, those sort of decks tend to respond poorly to removal and being dribble discarded. The builds that are less fussed by those things are the ones with more pronounced card advantage engines going on. Daxos also has ways of interacting, be it Rule of Law variants or the absolute lack of subtlety of Uba Mask, but they traditionally put up more of a fight as they're just more conventionally powerful. If played against a draw-happy opponent, Mana Study becomes a goldmine more often than not, and keeps delivering the goods late into the game as well. As such, the card acts as a sort of catch-up mechanism against well-rounded opponents, while delivering less value than a mana rock against decks that you don't need as much help against. Interesting!

    As to what to do with the treasures, erfunk has the mechanism down pretty well. Unlike a conventional rock, they just sit there, banking up. If you're just a little short of something, you can crack them, but on the whole I've found myself saving them up for power plays. On one occasion, I amassed 20+ treasure (with ~7 non-treasure mana!) while Intet, the Dreamer and Lord Windgrace got good things going on. In one fell swoop, I made a few extra dudes in the end step, buffed and pumped the team respectably, wiped the board and offered a table kill out of nowhere (which got ultimately blanked by a Constant Mists reveal). Thran Dynamo wouldn't have let me do that :p

    Due to its weird rubber band dynamic that feels like the polar opposite of winmore, I'll probably end up including this.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Daxos the Returned - Enchantment Speed Bumps Galore
    Except they don't - just dump the excess into bodies if you feel like it :p I'll be testing this bugger soon.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Daxos the Returned - Enchantment Speed Bumps Galore
    A year draws to a close, which is a pretty good excuse to look back on the deck. Sensei's Divining Top has performed admirably, granting me very good card selection. As stated in the update that introduced it, the deck does shuffle pretty often, so I get to pick from new cards reliably. Sculpt a line of play, build up a fat mana base, get things done. As such, I'm going to follow this whole "card selection" train a bit more.



    I am not super stoked about including a five drop in place of a two drop. Not too long ago I had to slim down the deck's curve as it bloated with various expensive things, and here I go introducing another costly card to the mix. However, Doom Whisperer is very good, and has performed admirably in testing. In a standard scenario, he allows for some card quality assessment and binning things of less importance. In a time of need, you can dig harder. In two rather patchy looking games, I'd funnel 6-10 life into the bugger and use the deck's reasonable level of haymaker density and overall redundancy to find something interesting to shake things up. Things will probably get quite silly if I land some lifegain with him around. I'm also yet to set up some graveyard synergy (Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, Replenish, the standard stuff), but I'm sure it'll be cute. More resilience! Daxos doesn't need to be around for the filtering to do relevant things, so appropriate evasive manoeuvres can be taken to ensure the deck can come online. Oh yeah, and he makes for good walker police and wears Sword of Rampant Growth very well.

    The cut seems unfortunate, as it eats into both my explicit draw power and my low-cost enchantments. And it's not the promised Blind Obedience either! However, the Whisperer eats life, so the extort made for a good excuse to keep the Obedience around. In all honesty, I don't even remember the last time I got good value off Arguel's Blood Fast. I've gotten less stupid with my keeps, so its potential early game boost hasn't come online in a while, and this whole "I got wiped, so I can funnel all the mana I had up for bodies into cards" is not super common. Also, in fairness, it'd be better to reintroduce Greed for sheer mana efficiency. That, and the whole "look ma how nice Blood Fast is at 4/5 mana" scenario I cooked up way back when ends up with the same net everything off the basic Greed, with cheaper activations later. However, that keeps endangering the curve, so not gonna happen quite yet.

    In terms of future direction, I am still keeping my eyes peeled for sources of Daxos independence, or at least less dependence (i.e. Cathars' Crusade). I've got some fat dudes, with the newest include being a nice beefslab as well, but I'm not sure that's enough in a 40 life multiplayer format. The most reliable way forward would involve Exsanguinate variants, as the name of the game is buff mana. However, if I have the mana to funnel into this to do serious harm to the table, I'm in a pretty good place, no? Most eligible Daxos-independent value town pieces have already been in the list at some point, and been cut for being very expensive while not doing that much (even if what they offer works in a vacuum). The wipe quota upping is still a possibility as well.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Patron of the Orochi - The Cockroach Tron (Combo/Swarm)
    2018 has been a quiet year for Patron. Grow from the Ashes got printed and included, but that's about it really. The deck does what it wants to, has the same set of putative includes that sit on the outskirts, yet never quite make it in as the deck plays well already. The list rarely gets walked in my playgroup as it sticks out a bit in terms of power level, which further limits playing time to assess any possible tweak avenues. Still, it's my flagship casual terror jank heap, and I'm very happy it exists.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Xenagos, the God of Double Damage Beatdown
    I'd say that if you pursue that route, the 4CMC enchantments are the best way to go. You also get Vance's Blasting Cannons, which may not let you hit lands but at least it doesn't die when you turn stuff sideways at it. My gut agrees with your hypothesis that The Immortal Sun is a bit too steep to merit a slot, at 6CMC you probably want to be doing business stuff. Some part of me wants to recommend Elemental Bond and Lifecrafter's Bestiary.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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