No, it's not. It's barely SB material for someone with a lot of clash or harbingers.
If we play it, we're in trouble.
Out of curiosity, how can something barely be sideboard material? It's not like there are any cards that dilute the power of your deck just by sitting in a small unloved pile by your dice or whatever.
In my experience Fox has fairly weak attacks, but they are very easy to chain into a finishing blow. Tapping A up on the ground can take your opponent from 0-60, chaining him from their with nairs can get him or her to 110ish, and then a down stomp or a windmill kick can end it. The problem is that he is very easy to disrupt while he is doing this, plus his FS is horrible.
I must say that my favorite character is Pit. He has very strong defense, can recover from the very bottom of the map, his B up can be used to escape other characters final smashes, and he is pretty fast.
I like Zelda or Yoshi the best, but they are hard to work with when playing against a competent opponent. Zelda's Light Arrow is so sick if you can hit 2+ people with it.
If you think bouncing all of Dredge's Bridge mangs constitutes winning the match up, you clearly have never ever played against the deck.
I'd straight up rather have F/I. It's really great in the mirror, which is otherwise a crapshoot. Dredge is on the decline, and is a terrible matchup anyway; I don't see E. Truth making it too terribly amazing. F/I is just as good at stalling, and, like chedder said, is more versatile.
You name Zombie and they lose their army. Or you name Akroma and they need to wait for 2-3 turns to get her back into play. If you can't win after that then you fail at TEPS. And I am not saying that Echoing Truth, I'm just saying that it does about the same thing while giving us a better Dredge matchup.
Figure out what you're talking about before posting next time please.
and if you notice, Americans dont wright, they talk, alot!
anyway... i liked it when i was beating bad people, i play good people, and it went down hill, i hate it now... but this deck is still good, maybe, no, im definitely unlucky with it
and maybe if you notice, Americans do wright alot. maybe you dont wright alot.. but that dont mean that the rest of us dont wright alot though..
Anyway.. This deck was fun for about 30 seconds. I took it to a ptq the day after it was spoiled and no one knew about it, and I still went 5-3. It practically loses to itself. Needing to play a spell on turn 1, a spell on turn 2, and then two spells on turns three and four requires at least two red sources. Most of the lists playing four Blinkmoths and three Darksteel Citadels have a hard time getting that, and I lost two matches to that fact alone.
Additionally, the decks mana gets crippled by Turn 3 Deed if you have even one Great Furnace, and playing only 21 lands makes it very hard to recover from something as simple as that.. Not to mention Molten Rain..
Plus, most decks have some way to gain life to help against a lot of the aggro in the meta right now. Jitte, Pulse of the Fields, and Hierarch are the worst things you could ever see, and Living / Cunning Wish makes it possible to recover from your burn very fast.
Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy tear you up as well. You could very easily lose 2-3 cards in the first few turns against Doran and Death Cloud, and then have them stabilize at 5-7 life and win.
Plus, now that the deck has gotten more popular people are starting to board against it. I would definitely advise against playing this deck this season. It just has too many problems that it needs to fix.
In this case versatility wins out for Fire//Ice. Echoing Truth is only helpful in one match. Yes, its a relevant matchup to be certain, but Fire//Ice is so good against so much. If I was going to play a bounce spell in the maindeck it'd be chain of vapor i think, but E-Truth does have its merits to be certain. The Ice isnt just good as a cantrip, but tapping a relevant land can be VERY important if you are about to go off.
I'm sure that Fire // Ice is more versatile than Echoing Truth, but that doesn't mean that Echoing Truth is only good in one match. It's INSANE in one match, where you win if you draw it.. In every other match it is still useful. It buys time against Doran and other aggro decks. It helps against combo by bouncing their Bloom in the upkeep. It bounces Teeg, of course, and it does so much more that I am not listing..
I might just be an Echoing Truth fan in gerenal, but I think it has what it takes to see play main. Especially if you expect to play Dredge 2-3 times at any given tournament.
Darksteel Colossus is hard to work with unless you have a Tooth, Channel or Tinker. Sky Hussar and Pestermite combo infinitely with Kiki, and might be playable on their own. Tooth itself is hard to cast with entwine unless you dedicate your deck to acceleration of some sort (Heartbeat of Spring, Signets, Gaea's Cradle, etc.) It is also easy to win with Tooth even if you fail to draft any of the creatures I listed.
I think categories goes beyond low creatures and low spells, and high creatures and high spells. It is also important to differentiate between aggro creatures and control creatures, and aggro spells and control spells.
For example.. Savannah Lions and Weathered Wayfarer are both low-costed creatures. Savannah Lions is great in aggro, while Weathered Wayfarer is great in control. If we organize the card choices in the way you suggested I fear that aggro or control might outclass the other in certain colors or in general.
I propose that we use three definitions for creatures and spells when determining which cards to include. Cards that fit an aggro strategy (Savannah Lions, Grim Lavamancer, Char, etc), Cards that fit in a control strategy (Weathered Wayfarer, Sakura Tribe Elder, Sensei's Divining Top, etc), and cards that can be played in an aggro deck or a control deck (Siege-Gang Commander, Mother of Runes, Oblivion Ring, etc.)
PS: The 10 Duals, 10 Bounces, and 5 Fetches should be given. They allow for a lot of fixing in a format that rewards splashes. Should the original post be edited so we're now voting for the extra ten lands required to fill the 35?
EDIT: I nominate all 10 Rav Block Karoo lands. They are way better than Duals in Cube. If that means that my aforementioned nominations are void then so be it.
What do you guys think about replacing Fire // Ice with Echoing Truth in this deck? I know that Fire // Ice's main purpose is to deal with Teeg and stall, and Echoing Truth does the same exact thing. Plus, Echoing Truth gives you a lot of game against dredge before you board.
The only reason I can see Fire // Ice played over Echoing Truth is because it cantrips when you need it to.
How do you guys feel about White Weenie being a supported archetype? My Cube is 580 cards at the moment, and these cards are the cards that White Weenie has to choose from:
These cards provide an excellent curve for a white weenie deck, but don't really allow for a splash. So many of the good cards cost :symw::symw:, especially the two drops, that it discourages splashing for burn or beefier creatures.
If you can get any of white's plentiful removal.. (Swords, Condemn, Temporal Isolation, O Ring, Pacifism, Fetters, Crib Sawp, etc..) then you won't need burn, and a lot of the equipment lets you fight through beefy creatures.. (SoFI, SoLS, Grafted Wargear, Jitte, Bonesplitter, etc..)
My problem with the archetype is that the card pool drains fast. I mean, a lot of the :symw::symw: cards will table since no one else can play them effectively, but if you don't get a good chunk of the list I posted earlier, you deck will have some trouble.
which brings me to my point.. What do I do to make White Weenie a viable deck? It seems that only 2-3 color midrange, RB Aggro, 5-Color Green, and Academy decks get played. What should I add?
Kiki-Jiki and Protean Hulk doesn't combo infinitely that I know of, without a lot of support of course, but the two can generate massive card advantage over one turn. Not to mention two.. or three..
Out of curiosity, how can something barely be sideboard material? It's not like there are any cards that dilute the power of your deck just by sitting in a small unloved pile by your dice or whatever.
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Heath
Woo...
I must say that my favorite character is Pit. He has very strong defense, can recover from the very bottom of the map, his B up can be used to escape other characters final smashes, and he is pretty fast.
I like Zelda or Yoshi the best, but they are hard to work with when playing against a competent opponent. Zelda's Light Arrow is so sick if you can hit 2+ people with it.
You name Zombie and they lose their army. Or you name Akroma and they need to wait for 2-3 turns to get her back into play. If you can't win after that then you fail at TEPS. And I am not saying that Echoing Truth, I'm just saying that it does about the same thing while giving us a better Dredge matchup.
Figure out what you're talking about before posting next time please.
and maybe if you notice, Americans do wright alot. maybe you dont wright alot.. but that dont mean that the rest of us dont wright alot though..
Anyway.. This deck was fun for about 30 seconds. I took it to a ptq the day after it was spoiled and no one knew about it, and I still went 5-3. It practically loses to itself. Needing to play a spell on turn 1, a spell on turn 2, and then two spells on turns three and four requires at least two red sources. Most of the lists playing four Blinkmoths and three Darksteel Citadels have a hard time getting that, and I lost two matches to that fact alone.
Additionally, the decks mana gets crippled by Turn 3 Deed if you have even one Great Furnace, and playing only 21 lands makes it very hard to recover from something as simple as that.. Not to mention Molten Rain..
Plus, most decks have some way to gain life to help against a lot of the aggro in the meta right now. Jitte, Pulse of the Fields, and Hierarch are the worst things you could ever see, and Living / Cunning Wish makes it possible to recover from your burn very fast.
Thoughtseize, Duress, and Cabal Therapy tear you up as well. You could very easily lose 2-3 cards in the first few turns against Doran and Death Cloud, and then have them stabilize at 5-7 life and win.
Plus, now that the deck has gotten more popular people are starting to board against it. I would definitely advise against playing this deck this season. It just has too many problems that it needs to fix.
I'm sure that Fire // Ice is more versatile than Echoing Truth, but that doesn't mean that Echoing Truth is only good in one match. It's INSANE in one match, where you win if you draw it.. In every other match it is still useful. It buys time against Doran and other aggro decks. It helps against combo by bouncing their Bloom in the upkeep. It bounces Teeg, of course, and it does so much more that I am not listing..
I might just be an Echoing Truth fan in gerenal, but I think it has what it takes to see play main. Especially if you expect to play Dredge 2-3 times at any given tournament.
Darksteel Colossus is hard to work with unless you have a Tooth, Channel or Tinker. Sky Hussar and Pestermite combo infinitely with Kiki, and might be playable on their own. Tooth itself is hard to cast with entwine unless you dedicate your deck to acceleration of some sort (Heartbeat of Spring, Signets, Gaea's Cradle, etc.) It is also easy to win with Tooth even if you fail to draft any of the creatures I listed.
For example.. Savannah Lions and Weathered Wayfarer are both low-costed creatures. Savannah Lions is great in aggro, while Weathered Wayfarer is great in control. If we organize the card choices in the way you suggested I fear that aggro or control might outclass the other in certain colors or in general.
I propose that we use three definitions for creatures and spells when determining which cards to include. Cards that fit an aggro strategy (Savannah Lions, Grim Lavamancer, Char, etc), Cards that fit in a control strategy (Weathered Wayfarer, Sakura Tribe Elder, Sensei's Divining Top, etc), and cards that can be played in an aggro deck or a control deck (Siege-Gang Commander, Mother of Runes, Oblivion Ring, etc.)
PS: The 10 Duals, 10 Bounces, and 5 Fetches should be given. They allow for a lot of fixing in a format that rewards splashes. Should the original post be edited so we're now voting for the extra ten lands required to fill the 35?
EDIT: I nominate all 10 Rav Block Karoo lands. They are way better than Duals in Cube. If that means that my aforementioned nominations are void then so be it.
The only reason I can see Fire // Ice played over Echoing Truth is because it cantrips when you need it to.
Thoughts?
~
These cards provide an excellent curve for a white weenie deck, but don't really allow for a splash. So many of the good cards cost :symw::symw:, especially the two drops, that it discourages splashing for burn or beefier creatures.
If you can get any of white's plentiful removal.. (Swords, Condemn, Temporal Isolation, O Ring, Pacifism, Fetters, Crib Sawp, etc..) then you won't need burn, and a lot of the equipment lets you fight through beefy creatures.. (SoFI, SoLS, Grafted Wargear, Jitte, Bonesplitter, etc..)
My problem with the archetype is that the card pool drains fast. I mean, a lot of the :symw::symw: cards will table since no one else can play them effectively, but if you don't get a good chunk of the list I posted earlier, you deck will have some trouble.
which brings me to my point.. What do I do to make White Weenie a viable deck? It seems that only 2-3 color midrange, RB Aggro, 5-Color Green, and Academy decks get played. What should I add?
Pestermite and Sky Hussar are the simplest.
Kiki-Jiki and Protean Hulk doesn't combo infinitely that I know of, without a lot of support of course, but the two can generate massive card advantage over one turn. Not to mention two.. or three..