I'm not sure exactly because I haven't run into this line on mtgo (which would definitively settle the issue), but does it even matter how the triggers are stacked? What I mean is does the "if" clause get checked more than once. If not the glimmervoid would get sac'ed anyways, but if it does check again during state-based actions after the flickerwisp trigger then it wouldn't be sacc'ed. Idk
It's very simple:
When two or more triggered abilities attempt to go on the stack at the same time they go on APNAP order. This stands for Active Player, Non-active Player. It means that those triggers that are controlled by the active player go on the stack in whatever order he or she wants, followed by those triggered abilities that are controlled by the non-active player in whatever order he or she wants. As items on the top of the stack resolve first, the triggered abilities controlled by the non-active player will resolve first.
Doing it in your turn:
So you control the flickerwisp ability, so yours is on the stack first, then the glimmervoid trigger gets stacked on top. When Glimmervoid's ability resolves flickerwisp's trigger is still on the stack, so the glimmervoid doesn't see any artifacts and gets sacced, then Opal enters the battlefield when wisp's ability resolves.
Doing it in your opponent's turn:
It gets ordered backwards, so if your flickerwisp entered the battlefield prior to the End Step of your opponent's turn, glimmervoid isn't sacrified cause wisp's ability resolves first and puts back the Opal into play. Now, if you play wisp EoT the void WILL be sacrified because the opal doesn't come back until the NEXT end step, which will happen in your turn.
Triggers are ordered in APNAP sequence. So you're the active player and your trigger goes on the stack, then -on top of it- your opponent's triggers is put on the stack. So the land is sacced before the Opal comes back. If you did it on yor opps turn it would have worked ONLY if you did it during EoT, so the flicker trigger happens on your turn and there is no conflict of triggers.
In my test Flayer is really one of the card you want in this kind of deck: We have only serum visions to "explore" our next draw and Flayer is a good addition. A lot of time i hit with a Flayer, see what's on the top, and than cast my delver getting sure it gonna flip. My advice is to test him, it also helps against tron to find counters to stop their gameplan.
I'm sure it's a good card, as I've played it un Junk and against it too. The thing is I don't see it as a tempo card but a midrage tap-out style of card, as that's the way of getting full value off it. In our deck other than filtering to find an answer the effect is just not enough, as having to throw good stuff to the yard just to get delirum on is just not great enough. When you don't have multiple planeswalkers and flashback cards to rip off the top like Junk does, you're not getting the whole value of the card. I understand how good the card can be but playing a 2 drop that needs to connect to justify it can help flip a delver is the opposite of how delver decks are built (traditioanlly). Now I'm not saying it's wrong to play it, just doesn't feel like it's the home of the card, not the style of deck. Now if you were to drop delvers, add lands and 4 snaps in a more of a midrange playstyle, I would consider the card 100%.
On another note, not playing artifacts like bauble in a deck with flayers seems incorrect.
I like your list but i have some question: why you don't play Grim Flayer? Chain delver into Confidant into Flayer is one of the best starts this deck can have! I don't like the 2 remand, i prefer to have "hard counters", is remand really the spell we need?
Threats that need setup need to be very efficient to be included in a delver type of deck. These types of deck also need to have 14 to 16 threats at maximum, as when you play delver you need certain amounts of instants/sorceries in order to effectively flip him. Grim Flayer is not more efficient than delver nor Tarmogoyf, so there is no room for him. I also would like to sneak in a single V Clique, maybe in the board. Remands can be swap out by 1 Mana Leak and 1 Go for the Throat, or similar cards; I like it because it buys you time to deal with the cards you absolutely must answer and couples well with discard. The list is my first draft and I'm actually really interested in testing it, but it needs to start somewhere and that's the pile of cards I chose for my starting point.
Another card I want to test is Ancestral Vision off the board, but that one seems less necessary.
What would you bring to the Restore Balance or 8 Rack MU if you didn't have access to Chalice?
There are a couple of players in my local meta on these decks.
8Rack is easy, 3 Baloth and 1 Huntmaster (or Pulse of Murasa) + K Grip, Grudge, Sage and Explosives.
Restore Balance idk to be honest, never played that deck. I asume if it's a popular deck and you HAVE to deal with them you can try playing some number of Splendid Reclamation.
EDIT: Against 8rack (if it's something that really scares you and you have to play everytime) you can try the EDM land card that gives you the option to put cards that would be discarded on top of your library.
I think the perfect number is 2, you want to maybe see an expedition, but there are games where it's just too slow or games that go too long and they don't do anything off the top. On the other hand, there are games you can't win without them. The biggest problem with it is that you have another 8 ramp effects that look for basics + the basics you draw + the basics that you have to fetch some times make the expedition awkward at times, especially when drawn mid to late game. I settled on 2 KHE and I never looked back (and I'm running 8 basic mountains where the usual is 7).
My opinion of Renegade Rallier is that its closer to a flickerwisp than a Ewit, yes i know the effect but Ewit you play when you want and if it resolved you get a card, now the other card is conditional yet the effect is alittle bit stronger (since it goes onto the Battlefield) yet again has an other condition (2 mana or less and must be a permanent). To me it seems like either an all in build around, or a 1-2 of because of space at the three drop. The reason i view it as a flickerwisp is that you can use it to effectively blank a removal spell, you can use it to gain abit of tempo (taking a land from them with a tech edge or something), its not totally identical but you can see how it is abit versatil yet conditional.
I prefer a card like Ewit because you know exactly what its going to do in a game when you see it in your hand and can adjust a bit easier, yet its not as explosive as Rallier so that could have an upside yet if its one of the last cards in your hand and you get no value its a lot worse (effect wise), the body is great though.
On the subject of this recursion, you need to also consider that if you are using this card, you might want to move to a package of Surgicals/Relic/Ravenous traps instead of RIP.
I agree that this a build around card, but the package doesn't really takes the build that far away from a straight GW D&T, as it has been the usual blink abuse build since always (maybe it's been derailing from that approach lately). I think the best GY cards fot such build is Tormod's Crypt followed by Relic of Progenitus.
Alongside Displacer, Wisp and Restoration angel it's a 100% guaranteed permanent into play ability that you can abuse. It is the ultimate demise of GQ your opponent until they have 0 lands in play, you don't even care if they get basics cause you blow them up again and again and again. I think it's strictly better if you go that route, if you care for CoCos and removal then Witness is better, I think it's all about the direction you want to take and Rallier is a build-around-me card. I should have expanded a bit on my thoughts I suppose.
You're pretending like your opponent is just going to sit there and allow you to make these lines of play. He or she is going to point removal at Rallier, as soon as he or she realizes what you're doing with it. In that sense, it has the same problem as Mangara of Corondor; if you want to abuse it, it's going to be obvious, and your opponent isn't going to casually let you win.
No, I'm not saying that, but you can work around that when you're playing taxes. They're spells cost more, if you have arbiter, their fetches cost more. The card is good on its own, regardless of the blinking abuse, whereas mangara isn't. If you were to build a blink D&T in WG, you can easily play a regular gameplan while having the option to go nuts as soon as the opponent taps out (which happens often when playing arbiter and thalia in the same deck).
If this were true, we would have seen it already with an Eternal Witness focused WG build. Instead, we use Eternal Witness as a 1-2 of. It's effective, but not something that's effective enough to want to play four copies.
I'm not saying you should play this or die. It's a build around card and I can see the upside of using it in a shell that has the option to abuse it through flicker effects. In the same deck you can play spellskite and selfless spirit, which both can be returned into play by rallier to have an endless stream of value as soon as your opponent's shields are down. If the game doesn't allow for it, you're just still playing a regular D&T deck with the value of getting back stuff off the GY with this dude. I think the card is great and should be explored before disregarding it saying 'it will die to removal' or 'opponents will try to stop you'. Synergy and combo decks exists through counterspells, discard and removal and still find they're way through it. Having a little value combo on a D&T shell is not something to disregard.
I know my original comment was a reply to Ivg, but you should go click the "spoiler" tag in my post on the last page. I feel like you didn't do that, and instead started replying without any context whatsoever.
I'm a huge fan of Renegade Rallier, and I think it opens up great new possibilities for WG. That said, I think you're selling it wrong. Jamming unnecessary (3rd or 4th) copies of Restoration Angel to try and get value out of this card is the wrong way to go. If you're going to spend 4 mana for value, you're probably better off just playing Collected Company with Eternal Witness and playing a midrange version of D&T.
If you coco rallier and blink it with wisp you won't get the first trigger but you will get the second at EoT, so there's no shame in taking that line of play.
This is only true if you don't play CoCo during your opponent's end step. If you flicker your own Rallier at the end of your opponent's turn, it won't return to the battlefield until your next end step.
Eternal Witness is a different card. Ewit asks you to resolve stuff or to have a vial in play. Rallier asks for none of those.
I'm also saying from the beggining that Rallier doesn't take the slots as Ewit because they are different cards. You can play both and live happily ever after, although I wouldn't play more than 2 Ewits. Even Abzan CoCo doesn't play more than 3.
I'm also not saying you shouldn't play CoCo, although I wouldn't play 4 either. I'd even play something like 2 CoCo and maybe 1 or 2 more in the board. This is not a CoCo deck, but having heirarch available helps to smooth it out.
About the Wisp + Rallier thing, obviously. It's like returning bloodghast at EoT and triggering Amalgams 1 turn later, you just adjust your timing to it. By casting it during combat or with a spell on the stack you're still protecting your rallier from sorcery speed removal.
Alongside Displacer, Wisp and Restoration angel it's a 100% guaranteed permanent into play ability that you can abuse. It is the ultimate demise of GQ your opponent until they have 0 lands in play, you don't even care if they get basics cause you blow them up again and again and again. I think it's strictly better if you go that route, if you care for CoCos and removal then Witness is better, I think it's all about the direction you want to take and Rallier is a build-around-me card. I should have expanded a bit on my thoughts I suppose.
You're pretending like your opponent is just going to sit there and allow you to make these lines of play. He or she is going to point removal at Rallier, as soon as he or she realizes what you're doing with it. In that sense, it has the same problem as Mangara of Corondor; if you want to abuse it, it's going to be obvious, and your opponent isn't going to casually let you win.
No, I'm not pretending that, but you can work around that when you're playing taxes. Their spells cost more, if you have arbiter, their fetches cost more. The card is good on its own, regardless of the blinking abuse, whereas mangara isn't. If you were to build a blink D&T in WG, you can easily play a regular gameplan while having the option to go nuts as soon as the opponent taps out (which happens often when playing arbiter and thalia in the same deck).
I'm not saying you should play this or die. It's a build around card and I can see the upside of using it in a shell that has the option to abuse it through flicker effects. In the same deck you can play spellskite and selfless spirit, which both can be returned into play by rallier to have an endless stream of value as soon as your opponent's shields are down. If the game doesn't allow for it, you're just still playing a regular D&T deck with the value of getting back stuff off the GY with this dude. I think the card is great and should be explored before disregarding it saying 'it will die to removal' or 'opponents will try to stop you'. Synergy and combo decks exists through counterspells, discard and removal and still find they're way through it. Having a little value combo on a D&T shell is not something to disregard.
If you coco rallier and blink it with wisp you won't get the first trigger but you will get the second at EoT, so there's no shame in taking that line of play.
I don't think Witness and Rallier compete for the same purpose. Rallier ramps you, gets you back an Aether Vial, Thalia, Scooze, Arbiter, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, whatever (the most significant cards costs 2mor less) and it puts it straight up in the battlefield, you don't need to resolve them. I think it's strictly better than Witness in GW as they can play 4 Wisps + 4 Restos.
Even though I'm pretty excited about the addition of Renegade Rallier, I can already tell you that "strictly better" is a bad way to frame your argument.
Alongside Displacer, Wisp and Restoration angel it's a 100% guaranteed permanent into play ability that you can abuse. It is the ultimate demise of GQ your opponent until they have 0 lands in play, you don't even care if they get basics cause you blow them up again and again and again. I think it's strictly better if you go that route, if you care for CoCos and removal then Witness is better, I think it's all about the direction you want to take and Rallier is a build-around-me card. I should have expanded a bit on my thoughts I suppose.
I don't think Witness and Rallier compete for the same purpose. Rallier ramps you, gets you back an Aether Vial, Thalia, Scooze, Arbiter, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge, whatever (the most significant cards costs 2mor less) and it puts it straight up in the battlefield, you don't need to resolve them. I think it's strictly better than Witness in GW as they can play 4 Wisps + 4 Restos.
I think testing is important to the lifespan of a deck. But you have to give credit to the cards that are/have been staples for a long time. Finks does much more than gain life. It's not hard on a W/G manabase (a little more so on W/B), it gains you 4 (if it dies and is not pathed, which with so many jumping on the Fatal Push train it will die a lot), it blocks very well in that you get two block steps out of it. You can resto it to reset the counter, it stacks up well against Liliana and Wrath as Dennis said. It's a very good card and does a lot more than just gaining life. That said, I think testing new cards is imporant and it looks like you're set on list. So test and tell us how it does.
My mainstream D&T has 2 finks copies on it. I've played 2 copies for as long as I played the deck. I know when he's good, and I know how good he is. I also know that when he's bad you rather draw any other card than finks, and I know how lackluster it can feel when compared to other 3 drops. I never said the card is bad, I just said I want a different effect on my creatures, I said I'm testing how much I like deathtouch + lifelink better than etb gain 2 + persist, or if I even like it at all.
Yes I used to play 2x Finks, if needed I can go up to all 4x. At the time being, I want to test that list, it will be modified if it musts, finks doesn't do much apart from gaining life.
R1 vs Elves. 2-1
R2 vs Affinity. 2-1
R3 vs Infect. 2-0
R4 vs Jund. 2-0
R5 vs Junk. 0-2
T8 vs Infect. 2-0
T4 vs Grixis control. 2-0
T2 vs Titan Breach. Split, it was GPT and I didn't want the byes so we re-arrenged prizes.
Going forward I'm going to drop the Huntmaster for a Pulse of Murasa.
I also played the exact same list in the last RPTQ and lost to infect in Top8 1-2 due to heavy mulliganing and mana screwing, otherwise I could have won the match (opp was on a slow hand).
It's very simple:
Doing it in your turn:
So you control the flickerwisp ability, so yours is on the stack first, then the glimmervoid trigger gets stacked on top. When Glimmervoid's ability resolves flickerwisp's trigger is still on the stack, so the glimmervoid doesn't see any artifacts and gets sacced, then Opal enters the battlefield when wisp's ability resolves.
Doing it in your opponent's turn:
It gets ordered backwards, so if your flickerwisp entered the battlefield prior to the End Step of your opponent's turn, glimmervoid isn't sacrified cause wisp's ability resolves first and puts back the Opal into play. Now, if you play wisp EoT the void WILL be sacrified because the opal doesn't come back until the NEXT end step, which will happen in your turn.
I'm sure it's a good card, as I've played it un Junk and against it too. The thing is I don't see it as a tempo card but a midrage tap-out style of card, as that's the way of getting full value off it. In our deck other than filtering to find an answer the effect is just not enough, as having to throw good stuff to the yard just to get delirum on is just not great enough. When you don't have multiple planeswalkers and flashback cards to rip off the top like Junk does, you're not getting the whole value of the card. I understand how good the card can be but playing a 2 drop that needs to connect to justify it can help flip a delver is the opposite of how delver decks are built (traditioanlly). Now I'm not saying it's wrong to play it, just doesn't feel like it's the home of the card, not the style of deck. Now if you were to drop delvers, add lands and 4 snaps in a more of a midrange playstyle, I would consider the card 100%.
On another note, not playing artifacts like bauble in a deck with flayers seems incorrect.
EDIT: Fixed quote
Threats that need setup need to be very efficient to be included in a delver type of deck. These types of deck also need to have 14 to 16 threats at maximum, as when you play delver you need certain amounts of instants/sorceries in order to effectively flip him. Grim Flayer is not more efficient than delver nor Tarmogoyf, so there is no room for him. I also would like to sneak in a single V Clique, maybe in the board. Remands can be swap out by 1 Mana Leak and 1 Go for the Throat, or similar cards; I like it because it buys you time to deal with the cards you absolutely must answer and couples well with discard. The list is my first draft and I'm actually really interested in testing it, but it needs to start somewhere and that's the pile of cards I chose for my starting point.
Another card I want to test is Ancestral Vision off the board, but that one seems less necessary.
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Fatal Push
2x Spell Snare
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Remand
2x Mana Leak
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Dismember
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Botanic Sanctum
1x Blooming Marsh
2x Watery Grave
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Breeding Pool
2x Swamp
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Dispel
1x Duress
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Collective Brutality
2x Countersquall
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Rain of Tears
8Rack is easy, 3 Baloth and 1 Huntmaster (or Pulse of Murasa) + K Grip, Grudge, Sage and Explosives.
Restore Balance idk to be honest, never played that deck. I asume if it's a popular deck and you HAVE to deal with them you can try playing some number of Splendid Reclamation.
EDIT: Against 8rack (if it's something that really scares you and you have to play everytime) you can try the EDM land card that gives you the option to put cards that would be discarded on top of your library.
I agree that this a build around card, but the package doesn't really takes the build that far away from a straight GW D&T, as it has been the usual blink abuse build since always (maybe it's been derailing from that approach lately). I think the best GY cards fot such build is Tormod's Crypt followed by Relic of Progenitus.
Eternal Witness is a different card. Ewit asks you to resolve stuff or to have a vial in play. Rallier asks for none of those.
I'm also saying from the beggining that Rallier doesn't take the slots as Ewit because they are different cards. You can play both and live happily ever after, although I wouldn't play more than 2 Ewits. Even Abzan CoCo doesn't play more than 3.
I'm also not saying you shouldn't play CoCo, although I wouldn't play 4 either. I'd even play something like 2 CoCo and maybe 1 or 2 more in the board. This is not a CoCo deck, but having heirarch available helps to smooth it out.
About the Wisp + Rallier thing, obviously. It's like returning bloodghast at EoT and triggering Amalgams 1 turn later, you just adjust your timing to it. By casting it during combat or with a spell on the stack you're still protecting your rallier from sorcery speed removal.
No, I'm not pretending that, but you can work around that when you're playing taxes. Their spells cost more, if you have arbiter, their fetches cost more. The card is good on its own, regardless of the blinking abuse, whereas mangara isn't. If you were to build a blink D&T in WG, you can easily play a regular gameplan while having the option to go nuts as soon as the opponent taps out (which happens often when playing arbiter and thalia in the same deck).
I'm not saying you should play this or die. It's a build around card and I can see the upside of using it in a shell that has the option to abuse it through flicker effects. In the same deck you can play spellskite and selfless spirit, which both can be returned into play by rallier to have an endless stream of value as soon as your opponent's shields are down. If the game doesn't allow for it, you're just still playing a regular D&T deck with the value of getting back stuff off the GY with this dude. I think the card is great and should be explored before disregarding it saying 'it will die to removal' or 'opponents will try to stop you'. Synergy and combo decks exists through counterspells, discard and removal and still find they're way through it. Having a little value combo on a D&T shell is not something to disregard.
If you coco rallier and blink it with wisp you won't get the first trigger but you will get the second at EoT, so there's no shame in taking that line of play.
Alongside Displacer, Wisp and Restoration angel it's a 100% guaranteed permanent into play ability that you can abuse. It is the ultimate demise of GQ your opponent until they have 0 lands in play, you don't even care if they get basics cause you blow them up again and again and again. I think it's strictly better if you go that route, if you care for CoCos and removal then Witness is better, I think it's all about the direction you want to take and Rallier is a build-around-me card. I should have expanded a bit on my thoughts I suppose.
My mainstream D&T has 2 finks copies on it. I've played 2 copies for as long as I played the deck. I know when he's good, and I know how good he is. I also know that when he's bad you rather draw any other card than finks, and I know how lackluster it can feel when compared to other 3 drops. I never said the card is bad, I just said I want a different effect on my creatures, I said I'm testing how much I like deathtouch + lifelink better than etb gain 2 + persist, or if I even like it at all.
Yes I used to play 2x Finks, if needed I can go up to all 4x. At the time being, I want to test that list, it will be modified if it musts, finks doesn't do much apart from gaining life.
R1 vs Elves. 2-1
R2 vs Affinity. 2-1
R3 vs Infect. 2-0
R4 vs Jund. 2-0
R5 vs Junk. 0-2
T8 vs Infect. 2-0
T4 vs Grixis control. 2-0
T2 vs Titan Breach. Split, it was GPT and I didn't want the byes so we re-arrenged prizes.
Deck is smooth and it was great.
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Explore
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Farseek
2x Khalni Heart Expedition
4x Search for Tomorrow
3x Anger of the Gods
4x Scapeshift
4x Cinder Glade
3x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
8x Mountain
2x Forest
4x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Fog
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Sudden Shock
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Krosan Grip
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Obstinate Baloth
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
Going forward I'm going to drop the Huntmaster for a Pulse of Murasa.
I also played the exact same list in the last RPTQ and lost to infect in Top8 1-2 due to heavy mulliganing and mana screwing, otherwise I could have won the match (opp was on a slow hand).