Thanks you so much! I have another question. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. It's been a while since I've played this deck and I've forgotten a lot. If I have 3 mountains, 2 shocks, and a forest on the field and play a Primetime to fetch up a Valakut and mountain. Would I get any triggers off the valakut?
Yes, 1 trigger. It works the same way like when you Scapeshift. Lands come into play at the same time and check for the condition and, since it's met, it triggers.
You're pretty favored in the MU, it's getting even better as tron is cutting down Warping Wails and they can't prevent you from ramping and killing them with land drops. TKS can only do so much in the MU, it's pretty bad for the Tron player (whatever tron flavor) to win against TitanShift. It's not unwinnable for them, but it should be pretty good for you.
I personally play both decks, and I played a lot of tron on MTGO and the 2 worst MUs are 1 Ad Nauseam and 2 Titan Shift / Breach Titan.
What I don't get is why people want to force-discuss their non-proven variation of a proven deck in the proven deck thread. Especially when the people in such thread don't want that discussion there. Discussions regarding the benefits of not playing delver do not make sense in a delver thread. Discussions regarding the benefits of playing green in a colorless deck thread are out of place, especially when there is a "G/x Tron" thread in these forums. That discussion belongs there, talk to the Green tron players about the benefit of playing Eldrazi creatures and dropping the planeswalker control route, not to the people that have explicitly chosen to play colorless about the benefits of splashing a color. If even they don't want to have that discussion, then create a thread for it because it is a different deck. Color identity does change things.
For more, please follow the discussion about this deck in Deck Creation so we don't take away from Esper Mentor/Geist/Delver (this is NOT those decks).
Feel free to discuss this variant in this thread. I created this primer as an Esper Midrange thread and the variations mentioned in it are the ones that were rising to the top (reached Tier 2) back in end of 2014/beginning of 2015, then the metagame shifted and they were no longer prevalent (nor any other midrange deck in esper colors).
Esper Trascendent and Esper Delve are the new two decks I'm looking to use to update this primer, as they are the new decks that are slowly creeping up in play and are proving themselves successful.
Guys how do we beat eldrazi/tron decks or do we just accept it as a loss? I'm at my wits end, about to abandon urx decks.
As you probably know, Blood Moon is a bit weak since we lack a fast clock and they'll just start smashing their cards on curve. Lacking that clock, I think if you really want to tool vs. Tron with this list, you need some land disruption (Blood Moon, Crumble to Dust, Fulminator Mage, etc.) and a heavier permission suite. You'll still lose most of the time, but Countersquall + 4 Cryptic Command + Logic Knot + a 1-of Deprive (plus Snapcaster Mage, of course) on top of a few Surgical Extraction on a Tron land, Karn, or Wurmcoil may be able to give your Tasigur/Tar Pit/Clique/Bolts the turns they need to get there.
Of course, since Tron probably has some of the best topdecks in Modern, all that's doing is buying you a few more turns to squeeze the damage through.
Colorless tron is not the same as other trons. It doesn't run Oblivion Stone to get rid of the moon, and it need the colorless source to cast Reshaper, TKS, Smasher and Enbgringer. Without that, it can only cast Ballista, the one-off Karn and Batterskull, so Blood Moon actually feels good. You can get blown by a topdecked Expedition Map to get out of the lock, but at that point you might as well have your Cryptics/remands/leaks + snapcasters ready, and they can only go so fast with only one source to cast spells.
My opponent has 0 cards in hand, no permanents in play, all lands tapped. No action possible from their side (for the sake of the example).
I have a Felidar Guardian and cast Restoration Angel, it resolves. RA trigger resolves targeting FG, its trigger resolves targeting RA. This generates the possibility for an infinite loop, can I force a draw with it?
In case this example results in a 'no', is it possible to enter an infinite loop and force a draw in MTG? I strongly dislike the idea that could do such a thing (as it's very anti-magic), but I'm curious to know to be prepared for it happening on the other side of the table, should the occasion arise.
Taking Turns. I know it's not a top tier deck, but that is the definition of anti-magic. At least decks like storm need to win in a single phase or they lose all their mana, even if they somehow had to switch phases they lose the storm count if they can't kill. This deck is just as annoying as it can while it goes off.
UB Mill works like a burn deck, in the sense that there is a constant clock, but generally 1/2 turn/s slower to close the game. Unlike Burn, lifegain does nothing, and keeping up blockers neither; this leads to no stalemate. So early pressure + Disruption is key to win the match. G1 your best cards are Warping Wail countering key spells like Breaking // Entering, Glimpse the Unthinkable and Mind Funeral, then a Chalice on 2 should stop most of their 'threats'. The best cards in the MU are TKSs and Smashers, as they apply fast pressure and can close the game before it's too late. If you don't get good mana you are likely losing the game, so it's pretty rough. Cards like Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void and Warping Wail are pretty good, although Chalice conflicts with setting it on 2, which is the best number. Cards Like Endbringer, All is Dust, Dismember, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and Batterskull are lacklusters. A T4 dream turn is to drop a Kozilek, the Great Distortion, draw 3+ and keep up cards to counter 1/2 spells, but it's a dream scenario which doesn't come up almost any time.
UB Mill is barely played on MTGO and almost unseen in paper, so it shouldn't be a concern.
EDIT: A pretty interesting alternative to Thorn of Amethyst is Trinisphere. It feels great vs a number of decks:
Valakut: Pact, suspended search for tomorrow, Farseek, Expedition and Explore costing 3 should slow the deck down a lot. Especially TTB version, making the combo cost 8. Same for their artifact hate will cost 3 now, so no T2 EoT Grudge or T4 pact for Rec Sage. This allows to keep Chalice alive for CMC 2 without conflicting. Not a game changer vs Thorn, but could be better.
Ad Nauseam: Spoils, Cantrips, Pacts, Grace, Bloom costing 3 seems very good at slowing them down. Giving a potential extra counter on Pentad Prism doesn't feel so appealing though.
Burn: A powerhouse, it slows them down dramatically.
Control: Same as burn, it prevents their mana efficiency from tempoing us out of the game.
Lantern: Same as burn, a powerhouse to slow them down and keep cards in hand to make their bridges not so scary.
Storm: Extreme value.
Cheeri0s: It's an already easy MU, but it outright destroys it.
Delver: Insane. Unless they naturally draw 3 lands and the Kommand (if grixis). Can be still hosed by TKS while kept away from developing.
The good thing about it is that is very punishing for tempo decks and combo decks in general.
The bad thing about it is that it doesn't work well in multiples and it's not something you would want more than 1x in the board for this very reason. It doesn't work well with Thorn either, so it can be weird.
All in all, a card to look out for in C options.
i realy like Trinisphere but sadly its very difficult choice to drop on turn 3.
i have a similar argument when it comes to playing matter reshaper or chalice of the void on turn 2.
the deck can be hard to pilot at times as the choices are pretty limited.
im going top pick up 2 for the sideboard but again wtf do i take out!!! strong deck but with no flex spots
What to take out comes down to what card is bad or worse than it in postboard games. I'm 99.99% sure if you're siding 3Sphere and you have the option to drop anything else ask yourself 'why did I bring this card?'. If the answer is 'because it wrecks my opponent', just play it. If not, maybe you shouldn't have sided it at all.
Chalice vs Reshaper or even TKS can be tough if you haven't figured out the opposing deck, so if you have the nut double Temple on T2 I'd go for TKS, otherwise Reshaper. Maybe chalice is not even good in the MU and you don't know it yet. If you know chalice on 1 hurts them just drop it, at its worst you'll be timewalking them forcing to be dealt with it and you have 1 more land-drop to make a more significant play, or to just drop the reshaper with a backup dismember. I don't know, it's mostly contextual.
Practice makes perfect, so just keep on playing and making mistakes; the more you do it, the more you will learn.
UB Mill works like a burn deck, in the sense that there is a constant clock, but generally 1/2 turn/s slower to close the game. Unlike Burn, lifegain does nothing, and keeping up blockers neither; this leads to no stalemate. So early pressure + Disruption is key to win the match. G1 your best cards are Warping Wail countering key spells like Breaking // Entering, Glimpse the Unthinkable and Mind Funeral, then a Chalice on 2 should stop most of their 'threats'. The best cards in the MU are TKSs and Smashers, as they apply fast pressure and can close the game before it's too late. If you don't get good mana you are likely losing the game, so it's pretty rough. Cards like Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void and Warping Wail are pretty good, although Chalice conflicts with setting it on 2, which is the best number. Cards Like Endbringer, All is Dust, Dismember, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and Batterskull are lacklusters. A T4 dream turn is to drop a Kozilek, the Great Distortion, draw 3+ and keep up cards to counter 1/2 spells, but it's a dream scenario which doesn't come up almost any time.
UB Mill is barely played on MTGO and almost unseen in paper, so it shouldn't be a concern.
EDIT: A pretty interesting alternative to Thorn of Amethyst is Trinisphere. It feels great vs a number of decks:
Valakut: Pact, suspended search for tomorrow, Farseek, Expedition and Explore costing 3 should slow the deck down a lot. Especially TTB version, making the combo cost 8. Same for their artifact hate will cost 3 now, so no T2 EoT Grudge or T4 pact for Rec Sage. This allows to keep Chalice alive for CMC 2 without conflicting. Not a game changer vs Thorn, but could be better.
Ad Nauseam: Spoils, Cantrips, Pacts, Grace, Bloom costing 3 seems very good at slowing them down. Giving a potential extra counter on Pentad Prism doesn't feel so appealing though.
Burn: A powerhouse, it slows them down dramatically.
Control: Same as burn, it prevents their mana efficiency from tempoing us out of the game.
Lantern: Same as burn, a powerhouse to slow them down and keep cards in hand to make their bridges not so scary.
Storm: Extreme value.
Cheeri0s: It's an already easy MU, but it outright destroys it.
Delver: Insane. Unless they naturally draw 3 lands and the Kommand (if grixis). Can be still hosed by TKS while kept away from developing.
The good thing about it is that is very punishing for tempo decks and combo decks in general.
The bad thing about it is that it doesn't work well in multiples and it's not something you would want more than 1x in the board for this very reason. It doesn't work well with Thorn either, so it can be weird.
All in all, a card to look out for in C options.
Yes, 1 trigger. It works the same way like when you Scapeshift. Lands come into play at the same time and check for the condition and, since it's met, it triggers.
I personally play both decks, and I played a lot of tron on MTGO and the 2 worst MUs are 1 Ad Nauseam and 2 Titan Shift / Breach Titan.
4x Angel's Grace
3x Phyrexian Unlife
3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Serum Visions
3x Sleight of Hand
1x Peer Through Depths
1x Lightning Storm
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Pentad Prism
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Pact of Negation
1x Slaughter Pact
3x Temple of Deceit
2x Temple of Enlightenment
2x Marsh Flats
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Seachrome Coast
1x Tolaria West
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Mystic Gate
1x Watery Grave
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Dreadship Reef
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Island
1x Repeal
2x Ethereal Haze
2x Fatal Push
1x Echoing Truth
1x Painful Truths
1x Damnation
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Gideon Jura
My 2 cents on the subject.
Feel free to discuss this variant in this thread. I created this primer as an Esper Midrange thread and the variations mentioned in it are the ones that were rising to the top (reached Tier 2) back in end of 2014/beginning of 2015, then the metagame shifted and they were no longer prevalent (nor any other midrange deck in esper colors).
Esper Trascendent and Esper Delve are the new two decks I'm looking to use to update this primer, as they are the new decks that are slowly creeping up in play and are proving themselves successful.
Colorless tron is not the same as other trons. It doesn't run Oblivion Stone to get rid of the moon, and it need the colorless source to cast Reshaper, TKS, Smasher and Enbgringer. Without that, it can only cast Ballista, the one-off Karn and Batterskull, so Blood Moon actually feels good. You can get blown by a topdecked Expedition Map to get out of the lock, but at that point you might as well have your Cryptics/remands/leaks + snapcasters ready, and they can only go so fast with only one source to cast spells.
3x Roast
1x Mizzium Mortars
4x Walking Ballista
4x Mind Stone
2x Anger of the Gods
4x Blood Moon
4x Molten Rain
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Koth of the Hammer
2x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Stormbreath Dragon
1x Thundermaw Hellkite
3x Scrying Sheets
19x Snow-Covered Mountain
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Magus of the Moon
2x Smash to Smithereens
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Sudden Shock
2x Ravenous Trap
My opponent has 0 cards in hand, no permanents in play, all lands tapped. No action possible from their side (for the sake of the example).
I have a Felidar Guardian and cast Restoration Angel, it resolves. RA trigger resolves targeting FG, its trigger resolves targeting RA. This generates the possibility for an infinite loop, can I force a draw with it?
In case this example results in a 'no', is it possible to enter an infinite loop and force a draw in MTG? I strongly dislike the idea that could do such a thing (as it's very anti-magic), but I'm curious to know to be prepared for it happening on the other side of the table, should the occasion arise.
What to take out comes down to what card is bad or worse than it in postboard games. I'm 99.99% sure if you're siding 3Sphere and you have the option to drop anything else ask yourself 'why did I bring this card?'. If the answer is 'because it wrecks my opponent', just play it. If not, maybe you shouldn't have sided it at all.
Chalice vs Reshaper or even TKS can be tough if you haven't figured out the opposing deck, so if you have the nut double Temple on T2 I'd go for TKS, otherwise Reshaper. Maybe chalice is not even good in the MU and you don't know it yet. If you know chalice on 1 hurts them just drop it, at its worst you'll be timewalking them forcing to be dealt with it and you have 1 more land-drop to make a more significant play, or to just drop the reshaper with a backup dismember. I don't know, it's mostly contextual.
Practice makes perfect, so just keep on playing and making mistakes; the more you do it, the more you will learn.
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose
4x Lotus Petal
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
9x Island
5x Mountain
2x Echoing Truth
2x Essence Scatter
1x Grapeshot
3x Into the Roil
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Mana Leak
1x Negate
UB Mill is barely played on MTGO and almost unseen in paper, so it shouldn't be a concern.
EDIT: A pretty interesting alternative to Thorn of Amethyst is Trinisphere. It feels great vs a number of decks:
The good thing about it is that is very punishing for tempo decks and combo decks in general.
The bad thing about it is that it doesn't work well in multiples and it's not something you would want more than 1x in the board for this very reason. It doesn't work well with Thorn either, so it can be weird.
All in all, a card to look out for in C options.