I'm really not sure how the meta is going to shake out so I'm mostly waiting to evaluate how to respond to it, but I do think that adding counters and slowing down is the wrong plan. If anything we need to speed up and win the game earlier. We will never win a grindy game against Jace. I also don't think Jund is coming back to full force. Even with BBE, Death's Shadow is still the better deck and will stick around as the prominent midrange deck.
@ghgiunco: Go ahead and post your BUG list. It might not be exactly relevant, but I'm curious what it's like. I was just staring at Glissa, the Traitor the other day and thinking about some BUG possibilities...
Yeah Claws opens up lots of really cool lines of play. I have been loving playing with them.
@Ulka you may want to think about tweaking your mana base if you are playing Shackles. 1/3 of your lands aren't islands (or fetches) and you may run into problems with that. Also I would consider adding some instant speed removal (aside from Shackles) into the 75 so you can avoid a few autolosses to decks like Counters Company.
Unfortunately my Grixis testing has shown Masticore and Prototype to be super awkward together. Masticore requires that you hold the card you draw in your hand so you can discard it during your next upkeep. But holding that card in your hand shuts off Prototype. I wanted them to be awesome together, but they just don't play well
With those decks making a comeback I am looking at Vedalken Shackles as a decent removal source as it just cleans affinty up ( and humans smaller dudes)as we can steal and kill things via heartless summoning.
This is very real. Shackles stalls Affinity really hard. They can't equip their Cranial Plating reliably and Shackles + Spellskite turns off Arcbound Ravager.
Speaking of the GP, I am tempted to try fitting Hollow One in the deck, but I think our other beaters may be better and more reliable for us.
If you want to go for the mimic vat - loop toolbox I would highly recommend playing Scarecrone. It's second ability also has a similar effect for looping these abilities, it is tutorable with Trophy Mage, and it's first ability is also helps you dig for answers/vats. Sidisi's Faithful is another good card to consider. It can sac itself or other utility creatures on ETB and could be used as repeatable removal. It is also a blue 1-drop that survives Heartless Summoning so it also helps accelerate our plan with Engineer and Architect.
I am a little skeptical of this Mimic Vat build because it might be too slow and too fragile, but I picked up playset of Vats so I'll do a little testing.
I have recently been testing a Grixis version of the deck. I'll post sometime soon with my list and thoughts sometime soon.
Have you tried out Claws of Gix? It is non-tapping version of phyrexia's core that you can use architect to activate and is also tutorable with both Tolaria West and Trinket Mage. It also doesn't strain your manabase with an extra colorless land the way Core does. It has been awesome for me in games against decks running Paths.
For the Masticore, that first strike is an awesome selling point, but have you considered Molten-Tail Masticore? It costs 1 less, you can tap an Architect to regenerate it (pseudo-first strike and dodging removal) and it throws dead creatures at anything/anyone for 4 damage a piece.
Mimic vat could be a fun way to abuse some of the ETB effects. If you have a decent sacrifice outlet you can do some crazy things with Wurmcoil. If you can find a way to get it online early enough and protect it so your op doesn't 2-for-1 you, then it could be some sweet tech.
I am interested by Lich again. The idea of casting both Walking Ballista and Perilous Myr repeatedly sounds really fun to me. Also, you can target Ballista with the Lich in order to put +1/+1 counters on the lich...
I also would like to note that if we play the tolaria west package it means we can play the Claws of Gix for the burn match-up that I know Various loves. The Claws as a sideboard card does allow us to use havengul more efficiently as it would give us a was to prevent exile via Path which is one of the most annoying things that happens to us IMO especially on a wurmcoil engine.
Claws of Gix has been a fantastic card, especially in a Path to Exile heavy environment. Alongside the Tolaria West conversation, I might choose to play 1 Slaughter Pact either in the main or the side. I just played a game where if I had a removal target for Tolaria, I would've won the game.
The only good options in our deck that it can fight against are creatures like wurmcoil. At that point we already have enough mana so we don't care much about the ramp. The token generation is good, but it's probably win-more at that time in the game
I started testing Molten-Tail Masticore today because it can discard extra Heartless and is a regeneratable beater with removal stapled on. Apparently it is currently bugged on MTGO so the upkeep ability doesn't make you discard anything. Turns out broken Masticore is really really good...
I agree with Ulka. I don't think it fits well with our deck in that it slows is down significantly in order to play it and we already have a lot of situations where we come start doing anything until turn 3 and I wouldn't want to push the gameplan back another turn for the sake of card quality
I haven't considered Inkwell Leviathan in a long time. Landing it should win the game vs control as you say. Solid sideboard card for a treasure mage package.
Scuttling Doom Engine is actually pretty good. It's unblockable against a lot of decks (including control) and 6 damage to the face is also pretty sweet. I had a lot of fun playing this alongside Claws of Gix and Academy Ruins.
I don't like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion very much. They cost extra which means they come down too late against most combo. I would prefer to disrupt and race them instead.
The Immortal Sun is intriguing, but I did just play against g/r tron and was hit by double Oblivion Stone. The Sun would not have helped much there..
I guess I never posted on my treasure post but i feel even in a treasure mage package we should only include 3-4 targets and probably 2 treasure mages.
I agree 100%. 2 mages tops. Maybe even just 1 if you have Sphinx Summoners in the main. Also no more than 4 targets with 2 of those probably being Wurmcoil Engine we don't want to water down the deck so that we only have 6-8 drops
Slaughter Pact: Being free never looked so good... until you have to pay Lodestone golem tax. I know various used this a lot in the past so i will let him talk more on this guy.
I love Slaughter Pact and this card has been a VIP for me in the past because it is both free and can be cast under a chalice for 1, but the "nonblack" clause makes it miss every major target in the deck with the top meta share (Death's Shadow) and so I don't think it is worth running with other options around. This also applies to Executioner's Capsule and Vendetta.
Ethersworn Adjudicator: If we play Engineered explosives we often play a 3rd color which if we make that color white, Adjudicator could be a decent removal engine as well as its blue, flies, and we can give it sudo-vigilance. its a strong contender. However its downside is it costs 5 which is my least favorite cmc in the deck. its just high enough that its slow to land unlike our 4 drops but also is too small for Treasure mage to tutor.
This guy seems cool and would be incredibly oppressive if it came online, but it doesn't do anything the turn you play it. You can't tutor it up and drop it to kill a threat, instead you have to hope it lives a full turn, untap and then sink a bunch of mana into it. I would prefer to run more Noxious Gearhulks, Duplicants and Phyrexian Metamorphs.
If you look at my most recent list, I am playing a mix of Fatal Push and Dismember in the side for instant speed removal and that has been working really well for me. Push is by far the best removal spell in the format, and Dismember comes in for those threats Push can't hit. I think Murderous Cut would be a reasonable substitute for Dismember for the reasons Ulka stated above.
One card I think you are missing is Basilisk Collar. Putting the collar on a Walking Ballista can wipe most of our opponents threats and both of the pieces of that combo are tutorable with Trinket Mage. Collar is also good on many of our other threats and is really fun to constantly swing in with a recurrable deathtouching/lifelinking Scrapheap Scrounger.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in the deck is something I'm wondering about now. I rarely get to use it, and even when I do it normally gets killed quickly. Yes, I know it's a way to delay getting killed ourselves but sometimes it also costs us a turn to cast.
Tezz has always been an MVP for me. Landing one can turn the tide of the game. Tezz selectively draws us an artifact card every turn (even if he dies right away he at least replaces himself) or he has the option of boosting something to 5/5 (optimally that's our Darksteel Citadels). And then there is his ultimate... Unlike most planeswalkers, Tezz's ultimate is extremely easy to pull off. You can use it the turn after you play him and then drain for double your artifact count. I have won tons of games with that and it is generally our best answer to stalemates. I wouldn't want to cut him. If anything I would consider playing a 3rd.
How many times has it happened that after we put in most of our creatures on the board we get hit with Ensnaring Bridge or Damnation?
We actually do have ways to win around an ensnaring bridge, unlike most other creature based decks. As I mentioned above, Tezzeret's ultimate will do the trick, and you also have walking ballistas. You can even attack with spellskites and then pump them with your architects to push through some damage. And lastly, if you are having a lot of problems with Ensnaring Bridge, I recommend you check out Throne of the God-Pharaoh. That card has won me some games that I had no business winning.
If you are having trouble with board wipes, try being more conservative with your plays if you think one is coming so that you still have backups in your hand. Or, even better, slam a Lodestone Golem or two on turn 3/4 in order to delay their 4cost wipe while you beat down.
I have tried some of the more control-ish decks with counterspells and discard spells, etc. but I think they water down the deck too much. The rest of our deck likes to tap out and drop lots of creatures rather than hold up mana for some instant-speed trick and it just becomes awkward. I noticed that you are only playing 17 artifacts in your deck which is pretty low. This is probably the reason why you haven't been having much luck with Tezzeret. Increasing your artifact count could probably help increase your consistency and velocity.
It's awesome to see some new people join the conversation while I've been gone. I have more time on my hands now and plan on working on this deck a bunch.
I've been talking to Ulka a little outside of the forum and we've been thinking it might be best to push the parts of the deck that our most broken plays come from (make it a little more "all in"). So from our conversations I have settled on the following list for my first round of test in 2018:
@ghgiunco: Go ahead and post your BUG list. It might not be exactly relevant, but I'm curious what it's like. I was just staring at Glissa, the Traitor the other day and thinking about some BUG possibilities...
@Ulka you may want to think about tweaking your mana base if you are playing Shackles. 1/3 of your lands aren't islands (or fetches) and you may run into problems with that. Also I would consider adding some instant speed removal (aside from Shackles) into the 75 so you can avoid a few autolosses to decks like Counters Company.
Unfortunately my Grixis testing has shown Masticore and Prototype to be super awkward together. Masticore requires that you hold the card you draw in your hand so you can discard it during your next upkeep. But holding that card in your hand shuts off Prototype. I wanted them to be awesome together, but they just don't play well
This is very real. Shackles stalls Affinity really hard. They can't equip their Cranial Plating reliably and Shackles + Spellskite turns off Arcbound Ravager.
Speaking of the GP, I am tempted to try fitting Hollow One in the deck, but I think our other beaters may be better and more reliable for us.
I am a little skeptical of this Mimic Vat build because it might be too slow and too fragile, but I picked up playset of Vats so I'll do a little testing.
I have recently been testing a Grixis version of the deck. I'll post sometime soon with my list and thoughts sometime soon.
For the Masticore, that first strike is an awesome selling point, but have you considered Molten-Tail Masticore? It costs 1 less, you can tap an Architect to regenerate it (pseudo-first strike and dodging removal) and it throws dead creatures at anything/anyone for 4 damage a piece.
Claws of Gix has been a fantastic card, especially in a Path to Exile heavy environment. Alongside the Tolaria West conversation, I might choose to play 1 Slaughter Pact either in the main or the side. I just played a game where if I had a removal target for Tolaria, I would've won the game.
I haven't considered Inkwell Leviathan in a long time. Landing it should win the game vs control as you say. Solid sideboard card for a treasure mage package.
Scuttling Doom Engine is actually pretty good. It's unblockable against a lot of decks (including control) and 6 damage to the face is also pretty sweet. I had a lot of fun playing this alongside Claws of Gix and Academy Ruins.
I don't like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion very much. They cost extra which means they come down too late against most combo. I would prefer to disrupt and race them instead.
The Immortal Sun is intriguing, but I did just play against g/r tron and was hit by double Oblivion Stone. The Sun would not have helped much there..
I agree 100%. 2 mages tops. Maybe even just 1 if you have Sphinx Summoners in the main. Also no more than 4 targets with 2 of those probably being Wurmcoil Engine we don't want to water down the deck so that we only have 6-8 drops
You have me very interested. I think I'll pick up a couple and see how they fare.
I love Slaughter Pact and this card has been a VIP for me in the past because it is both free and can be cast under a chalice for 1, but the "nonblack" clause makes it miss every major target in the deck with the top meta share (Death's Shadow) and so I don't think it is worth running with other options around. This also applies to Executioner's Capsule and Vendetta.
This guy seems cool and would be incredibly oppressive if it came online, but it doesn't do anything the turn you play it. You can't tutor it up and drop it to kill a threat, instead you have to hope it lives a full turn, untap and then sink a bunch of mana into it. I would prefer to run more Noxious Gearhulks, Duplicants and Phyrexian Metamorphs.
If you look at my most recent list, I am playing a mix of Fatal Push and Dismember in the side for instant speed removal and that has been working really well for me. Push is by far the best removal spell in the format, and Dismember comes in for those threats Push can't hit. I think Murderous Cut would be a reasonable substitute for Dismember for the reasons Ulka stated above.
One card I think you are missing is Basilisk Collar. Putting the collar on a Walking Ballista can wipe most of our opponents threats and both of the pieces of that combo are tutorable with Trinket Mage. Collar is also good on many of our other threats and is really fun to constantly swing in with a recurrable deathtouching/lifelinking Scrapheap Scrounger.
Tezz has always been an MVP for me. Landing one can turn the tide of the game. Tezz selectively draws us an artifact card every turn (even if he dies right away he at least replaces himself) or he has the option of boosting something to 5/5 (optimally that's our Darksteel Citadels). And then there is his ultimate... Unlike most planeswalkers, Tezz's ultimate is extremely easy to pull off. You can use it the turn after you play him and then drain for double your artifact count. I have won tons of games with that and it is generally our best answer to stalemates. I wouldn't want to cut him. If anything I would consider playing a 3rd.
We actually do have ways to win around an ensnaring bridge, unlike most other creature based decks. As I mentioned above, Tezzeret's ultimate will do the trick, and you also have walking ballistas. You can even attack with spellskites and then pump them with your architects to push through some damage. And lastly, if you are having a lot of problems with Ensnaring Bridge, I recommend you check out Throne of the God-Pharaoh. That card has won me some games that I had no business winning.
If you are having trouble with board wipes, try being more conservative with your plays if you think one is coming so that you still have backups in your hand. Or, even better, slam a Lodestone Golem or two on turn 3/4 in order to delay their 4cost wipe while you beat down.
I have tried some of the more control-ish decks with counterspells and discard spells, etc. but I think they water down the deck too much. The rest of our deck likes to tap out and drop lots of creatures rather than hold up mana for some instant-speed trick and it just becomes awkward. I noticed that you are only playing 17 artifacts in your deck which is pretty low. This is probably the reason why you haven't been having much luck with Tezzeret. Increasing your artifact count could probably help increase your consistency and velocity.
I've been talking to Ulka a little outside of the forum and we've been thinking it might be best to push the parts of the deck that our most broken plays come from (make it a little more "all in"). So from our conversations I have settled on the following list for my first round of test in 2018:
4 Grand Architect
2 Chief Engineer
3 Glint-Nest Crane
2 Mulldrifter
Enchantment
3 Heartless Summoning
Land
1 Tolaria West
4 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Hollow
2 Ghost Quarter
8 Island
1 Swamp
1 Darksteel Citadel
2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Spellskite
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Duplicant
2 Sphinx Summoner
4 Myr Superion
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Trinket Mage
1 Treasure Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Basilisk Collar
2 Walking Ballista
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Yahenni's Expertise
I'll go back over some of the comments from the last few months over the next few days and put out some of my opinions on those
Edit: @ghgiunco what is your most recent list?