MTG Salvation

Screw this garbage. Support your LGS instead.

Quote from SpeedGrapher »

They could choose a different business model and print 5 high value cards each standard set until they run out of cards over $40.

Or they could change their business model toward a viable alternative from the pay-to-win lootboxes scam that they and their competitors have been selling to their consumers for over 20 years. Maybe find a way to reward Single sellers / buyers more without having to rely on the booster box lottery as much. The problem lies in the amount of print runs that these companies are able to distribute to where there's enough product to circulate throughout the Secondary Market without going up in value over time.

Consumers are so sick and tired of these crappy monetization schemes by these gaming companies to the point where we're only getting the bare minimum as this happens not just in MTG but in other discontinued Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games where it's treated as nothing more than a short-term investment with no long-term commitment into keeping these games thriving. Why? Because the Trading Card Game / Collectible Card Game Market is WAY too crowded to stand any sort of chance against the big three (MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Pokémon).

I think this also speaks to the current state of gaming culture today which is the biggest issue with new Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games where the companies behind them don't have the opportunity to make mistakes like Wizards of the Coast did with MTG. Wizards of the Coast got to survive it's growing pains with MTG because it was the first and was a unique product. Nowadays If a company makes too many mistakes most players would drop the game on the spot. Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh! got away with it at the time because enough people gave these games a second chance.

Quote from Shadow345 »

I hope Pioneer overtakes Modern so Fetchland prices go down.

It needs to since Modern is way too fast of a format right now due to the consistency of Fetchlands creating expensive mana bases that no one's able to afford. With Pioneer slowing down overall gameplay it helps decks that tend to normally struggle against decks that win on turn 3 or 4 at the earliest. Why Wizards of the Coast doesn't feel the need to officially discontinue Modern in favor of Pioneer is anyone's guess.

It would give them a good reason to give us Pioneer Masters since we could use some more reprints that won't become Standard legal like in Modern Horizons. Modern Horizons wasn't necessarily a Masters set in the traditional sense as there were more new cards than actual reprints. The biggest problem with Masters sets was that it hurt LGS's that were trying to make money off of them even though it was a boon for casual and EDH players.

Better get your Shocklands now before they spike thanks to Pioneer.

I feel as though the reason why Pioneer now exists as a MTG format is because fixing Modern (and to a lesser extent Standard) would require Wizards of the Coast to publicly acknowledge the Secondary Market since it's what's been pushing players out of Standard / Modern for cheaper alternatives such as EDH / Commander which is the most popular format in the game. The problem right now is that the ongoing demand for popular cards are having a domino effect on other formats causing them to become more expensive as an end result with no reprint equity in sight. When that reprint equity goes into premium products with limited print runs like Ultimate Masters that's why you have cards like Snapcaster Mage which are still around $60-70 a piece non-foil when they should be much cheaper on the Secondary Market.

Pioneer feels like a way for Wizards of the Coast to draw more players away from EDH / Commander for those who can't afford Standard / Modern right now since they'd rather promote competitive formats more than casual formats as it makes them more money. I like the idea behind Commandfest although it's obvious that Wizards of the Coast simply isn't pushing it hard enough probably because they're afraid of EDH / Commander's influence on competitive players which to them translates to less money being spent on Standard / Modern. They base their Banned / Restricted List decisions on data from these competitive formats simply because they don't want to get on the EDH Rules Committee's bad side of turning EDH / Commander into a money driven format.

Funny how Emry, Lurker of the Loch creates an infinite mana loop with Umbral Mantle and Lion's Eye Diamond. If you have anything on the battlefield that triggers whenever you cast an artifact or noncreature spell then you pretty much go infinite from there. As much as I love her in Breya, Etherium Shaper for EDH / Commander I still think Arcum Dagsson is better for getting artifacts onto the battlefield faster but that's just me.

Gee thanks Wizards of the Coast for spiking Breya, Etherium Shaper while I was in the middle of rebuilding the deck for EDH / Commander. First Mycosynth Lattice because of Karn, the Great Creator and now this bs. It's already bad enough that I'm unable to afford an Academy Ruins, now I have to spend $500+ on a EDH / Commander deck that really should've cost me $200 less to complete. It looks like this is going to cost me more than Shadowborn Athreos which was a bit of a pain to acquire 23 Shadowborn Apostles.

Don't get the wrong idea though, I love that they finally made an Urza creature card that isn't Blind Seer. However this just feels like a slap in the face after all the price spikes we've been getting from War of the Spark up til now. Crucible of Worlds is probably going to spike because of Prismatic Vista, Fist of Suns and Jodah, Archmage Eternal because of Morophon, the Boundless and the list goes on. EDH / Commander doesn't need to be as expensive as Modern where decks aren't affordable.

Quote from AlecPyron »

They should go all in anime-style and trigger more people and call mangakas and doujinshi artists and have the proper "anime style". It would be cool if they had Akira Toriyama, Rumiko Takahashi, or Eiichiro Oda draw some of them.

I'm happy with Amano's piece, but I wish they had other prominent artists like Tsutomu Nihei, Huke, or Ghibli style ones which have a more general appeal.

Going back to Kamigawa would be a good excuse to hire these Japanese artists to illustrate Magic cards despite how weak the block was in Standard and Modern compared to how popular it is in EDH / Commander. Maybe then we'll finally get more Ninja tribal support for Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow by bringing back Ninjutsu as well as a Samurai tribal Commander that does Bushido justice though to be fair it's basically Flanking. Oddly enough it wasn't as popular of an evergreen mechanic as Banding was which was more broken back in the day.

Looks like Shadowborn Athreos just got even more ridiculous in EDH / Commander. Cast Insidious Dreams to put X Shadowborn Apostles on top of your library with Demon's Horn and Bolas's Citadel on the battlefield to cast those spells for free since you gain life for casting a black spell being Shadowborn Apostle. Once you have 10 or more Shadowborn Apostles on the battlefield sac them to Bolas's Citadel to deal 10 to each opponent while also pressuring them to pay 3 life per creature you sac with Athreos, God of Passage. If Archfiend of Despair is on the battlefield as this resolves your opponents take an extra 10. Talk about brutal.

Quote from Neuroticneurok »

The problem is that American consumers are quite fickle and lazy.

It's not that they're fickle and lazy when it's their family / jobs that keep them away from playing during the weekdays since they need a disposable income to spend for their gaming hobby which is why the weekends are normally ideal for them to enjoy their hobby. Online orders have sped up waiting periods of completing decks to the point where it's almost had a negative effect on the Local Game Store. It's usually either because their local distributor doesn't carry specific products that they're wanting, lack of specific card singles available, or there's nobody within the vicinity to trade specific cards with.

Having sanctioned events being spread out onto different Local Game Stores does have a tendency to be harmful for their business especially If they aren't getting enough customers in due to competitive pricing which is really just an excuse to undercut consumers. MSRP was really the one thing keeping this type of bad business practice in check. Why leave MSRP the way it was when you could get rid of it by pitting Local Game Stores against each other and sell direct to consumers through a new website that isn't susceptible towards online traffic? Because who cares If no one has a place to play Paper Magic right?

So why create an incentive in the hopes that consumers are gullible enough to completely abandon Paper Magic for Arena when that defeats the whole purpose of opening a new website to sell Paper Magic directly to consumers? If they don't have a place to play then what would be the point of purchasing Paper Magic directly from Wizards of the Coast online If they can't even use the physical cards on Arena? Maybe If there was some sort of physical booster pack redemption on Arena.

Quote from Neuroticneurok »

Why is it always this all or nothing approach in gaming business? Either you're making billions or it's just not worth it to bother? What happened to being proud of modest successes and stability?

It's this fear that If they don't get caught up with the latest trends that they'll end up getting left behind and become less profitable long term when they need to focus more on what made them successful in the past while still being able to appeal toward a wide audience. If gaming companies had better PR with their customers and clientele then we wouldn't be having this problem. However they choose not to because the cost of the industry itself has made it more difficult for them to take as many risks as they did decades ago where it's not as much of a burden with Tabletop Games.

That's what makes this whole e-Sports craze with Tabletop Games so perplexing because all they're trying to do is take away the experience of what makes the genre what it is when they don't even know how to properly advertise it as such. Perhaps they see this as their only out in fear that this current generation of kids and young teenagers are too asocial to socialize with others outside of a digital space. When it comes to Video Games like Fortnite and Overwatch, e-Sports make sense but for Tabletop Games like Magic: The Gathering? Wouldn't live stream matches with commentaries be better anyway?

Quote from Colt47 »

I love the smell of corporate in the morning.

I don't buy it for a second that getting rid of MSRP is good for the consumer. That's basically giving less information and saying that less information is good for us when their entire problem has been a lack of communication, bad set design, and refusal to improve card quality in the long term due to financial pressure from the stockholders.

Not to mention, this just looks like them trying to get even further away from the possibility of admitting there is a secondary market.

Seems like WotC's only delaying the inevitable at this point since they know the Reserve List isn't going to sustain itself any longer for players to actually afford it which explains the recent rise of Chinese Counterfeits that are an existential threat to Paper Magic. What's even scarier is that WotC doesn't seem to have a problem with this even though the holo-stamp foils on modern Rares and Mythics suggest otherwise.

The stockholders obviously have their sights set on Arena which explains the current financial pressure to improve card quality for Paper Magic because they're probably afraid that the FTC will go after them once they're done investigating digital loot boxes. It's doubtful it will get very far due to how American legislation is. As for getting rid of MSRP, turns out it may be just as much of a threat towards the Singles Market as it is for Sealed Products.

Another reason for getting rid of the MSRP is probably retribution against Local Game Store owners for selling participation packs / cards online by hosting events that never really took place which explains why WotC kept releasing supplementary products to make up for the damage that these Local Game Store owners had made by being the straw that broke the camel's back in regards to their relationship with each other.

Quote from ChaozPuttatos »

Cobras are problem if You don't play removal. Uro was a problem even if You have removal. You don't even need to find another titan during game if You fail with the first one. That's not fun.

Uro is very, very strong.
I still rather play a ton of Uros than Ugin or Muxus, though.

what´s really not fun are the cards that say "lol, I win" like Ugin, Muxus or Genesis Ultimatum on that Omnath deck.
Banning Uro will not weaken the Omnath/Cobra/Ultimatum stuff by all that much, and at the same time will inviabilize some other competitive decks that used to run Uro.

at the end of the day, all this ban is going to create is increased domination for an already dominating deck.

IMO, they played if VERY wrong.
they tried to hit the Omnath/Cobra deck and ended up hitting Sultai Midrange even harder and there was really no need for that.

banning just Uro and nothing else reminds me strongly of when they banned Golos and let Oko run rampant....

at this day and age I'm not sure if WotC is even aware of what they are doing really.
are they making overpowered crap to ban on purpose?
man... are they even testing anything anymore?

I mean, look at it....
they build develop and test the set more than a year in advance...
so, more than a year ago they knew that the format that would exist right now would have Oko, Omnath, Uro, Cobra and Once Upon a Time...
how the hell did that slipped through?!

WoTC doesn't retain the list arbitrarily, nor do or did they print (and then not reprint) cards so they obtain or presumably retain value over time. That was never their intent.
They printed cards then and continue to do so because they're game pieces to be played with and traded against one another primarily among players (and collectors), and obviously because it's a product which creates profitable revenue for them (and their partners).
The fact that certain cards have monetary value as individual singles on the secondary market due to artificially diminished supply and inflated player demand is purely incidental, or at most the result of unanticipated product popularity.
Anyone who played back in the day knows the List was started due to Chronicles which was a complete disaster. Love it or hate it, it was the right decision, one which I will always support, one which saved this game, so those among you who don't like it need to acknowledge that you probably never would've even been introduced to this game without it, because it would have faded into obscurity with countless other CCGs back in the mid-late 90s.
If they printed every good competitive and efficient card en-masse at common rarity (again, like they did back then) they may lose the confidence of long term collectors, but at least then everyone could actually play the deck they want to play affordably. Ask yourselves... Is that what every player truly wants deep down? Alas, that would mean fewer packs being sold, which is bad for Wizards, LGSs, and ultimately bad for players if they go under and the product stops evolving, being distributed, and live events are no longer being hosted. From my perspective, the high and ever-increasing value of cards (especially commander staples) is nothing short of irrefutable evidence that this game is still extremely successful at attracting new players and retaining old ones despite the pandemic situation, which is impressive, and a good thing we should all be happy about and proud to support. After so many years of market and reprint patterns, there are things about this game we should all understand and accept by now, for better or worse.

As for expanding or expunging the list, be careful what you wish for

Quote from Card Slinger J »

Fixed as in finally having official sanctioned in-person events for the format? My LGS tried doing that once with two 4 player pods where one player managed to win on turn 5/6 so we had to wait a couple hours for the other 4 player pod to finish before we could proceed to the next round. Each player was given a sheet of paper listing all the game achievements they've unlocked and for the player with the most unlocked received some kind of prize support from the store. I couldn't remember what it was but we only held the event once and that was it. This was before the pandemic btw. Even though it wasn't a competitive event it was a good way to get more Paper Magic players into EDH / Commander. The entry fee for the event was only $5 as well.

Maybe If Wizards of the Coast were able to add more swag for prize support like sleeves, playmats, or even promo cards that would've been nice. They're probably looking at what happened with FNM a few years ago and were like, "Yeah...we're not allowing LGS Owners / Employees to fake FNM events just to sell promo cards on the Secondary Market that we give them." You sure about that cause they're selling Secret Lair drops because you thought direct-to-consumer was a good idea but really wasn't when you thought it was a good idea to make it hard for players to play Paper Magic at Local Game Stores. Wizards of the Coast, If you really put the LGS first we would've gotten those Secret Lair Fetches by now but you decided to make them less accessible.

Though the OP made clear he was talking about changing the number of cards in the deck from 100 to 85, I can see why you'd ask for sanctioned EDH. My issue from experience at my own LGS is that as soon as there's prize support, the disparity in decks gets emphasized. My LGS for a long time would have a $5 entry fee event on Sundays, and everyone that showed up could play pods all day long with random groupings, and if you won a pod, you got a prize, and you couldn't get more than 3 prizes in a day. But once you incentivize winning, it brings out the ultra competitive decks and/or players. I vastly prefer a more casual game, but if there's an ultra competitive Zur the Enchanter deck at the table pubstomping a group of casual decks, it gets pretty disheartening.

As to the OP's topic - no, I don't think EDH would be better if it went down to 85 cards. I think Dirk discussed a lot of the relevant considerations.

A lot of people conflate the format's success with the RC's involvement, which is an understandable logical leap, but there's really no evidence of such. If anything, the format is popular because of WotC's involvement, as there have been incredibly sharp jumps after every Commander set release.

Sheldon took the idea from Adam Staley who created the format up in Alaska, brought it to the rest of the US, and the populace took it and ran with it because it was a good idea. The RC's involvement since then has had a neutral to slightly negative effect on the format, while WotC has smartly thrown their weight behind it and exploded its popularity via constant support.

Quote from fleshrum »

And while I do think Mark Rosewater is a ponce, it doesn't matter whether you like him or not, it matters that you recognize that under his management this game has seen some of the absolute worst mistakes in card design, product glut, and metagame stagnation. You can think that a particular area of botched whatever is not his fault, and it doesn't matter. He is the prominent audience-facing member of staff, he takes credit for a lot of decisions (usually successful ones), and players can and should hold him accountable when appropriate.

The cashier at Arby's is the most prominent audience-facing member of their staff and thus they should be held accountable for the pricing and quality of items!

I'm glad we could step back and realize this profound truth. That because someone in a company interacts with the public all of the company's decisions must be considered their personal decisions and they must take responsibility for them. I assumed that a person should only be held responsible for things they did or held influence over not anything that I wanted to attribute to them. This means I can start blaming Neil Degrasse Tyson for any science-related problems such as global warming, pluto not being a planet, and our general lack of flying personal vehicles? He is the most audience-facing member of science so it sticks right?

This is how a ban list should be used. Not just as an emergency fix for obviously broken formats but as a healthy booster for when formats stagnate or as basic quality of play improvements.

My government did its best to save businesses from the worst of the COVID. As I said earlier in the thread there is no COVID here, because the border is closed and all cases tracked and quarantined (currently 8 active). They also announced further financial aid For example: small businesses here get free electricity until September (from April) as we still have government-owned power utilities.

Perhaps you should petition your government for help for local small businesses.

We have had the CARES Act and the Paycheck Protection Plan Act passed that combined is several TRILLION dollars of aid and low interest loans to small businesses. Some states have granted aid to small businesses as well. Our border is like Swiss Cheese with Mexico, covid travels freely into the country from the south and from air travel just about anywhere in the world. Western Australia I see has about 2.6 million people spread out over a HUGE area, with 2.0 million of that in Perth. (Basically a city and thousands of square miles of uninhabited bush country) Much easier for WA to contain and reduce over a population of 330 million concentrated in large cities all over the country.

Petitioning our government for help is about like pissing into the wind, near pointless as they do what they wish. And when they do something its slow and packed with pork riding legislation that increases the beuaracracy.

We lost 33% of our GDP in the second quarter. Shattering the record of the Great Depression. (Of the largest market on the planet) and we have over 26 TRILLION dollars in debt. Comparing Western Australia to the United States is like comparing raisins to grapefruit. Don't get me wrong, at this time I'd probably rather be living in rural Western Australia. Fixes here aren't simple.

Mark is at his best when he is editing other people's ideas, and at his worst when he is pressing for his own ideas. He's been responsible for a lot of design mistakes that came from him pushing things that her personally likes or chasing a challenge, but he's also been responsible for a lot of really well designed sets and was instrumental in defining the color pie and contributing a lot to the foundation that design is built on. His record has been a mixed bag, but I think he does the "Lead" part of his lead designer job well, and should step back more from the designer part, or let others have more veto power over his pet ideas. At least his mistakes come partially from genuine passion for the game, and aren't entirely just pushing power to sell packs short term.

Quote from Card Slinger J »

Unfortunately as long as people are stupid, policies need to be put in place assuming people are stupid. It's got nothing to do with shady business practices when it's got more to do with protecting the lowest common denominator. Each state is handling COVID-19 differently however each state isn't handling it intelligently, so Wizards of the Coast stepped in because they decided they didn't want their products associated with an outbreak. I do think that Double Masters, Mystery Booster, and Jumpstart completely devaluing the majority of Non-Reserve List cards that Local Game Stores need to make a profit from flipping card singles combined with low cash flow affecting their business during this pandemic sounds like a recipe for disaster because what good is keeping Paper Magic affordable If nobody has a place to play anymore? Organized Play for Paper Magic be damned.

Sure Local Game Stores are no longer able to run Organized Play events but that doesn't mean that they need to shutdown In-Store Play entirely for Casual players who just want to hangout with their friends and play EDH / Commander. What would give Wizards of the Coast the idea that the majority of Paper Magic players actually play at home over their LGS? I can understand If the LGS environment is toxic but that's just a false negative stereotype that EVERY LGS is like this when it isn't. Not every LGS has a loyal community (not online btw) that financially supports them especially when it's already difficult enough as it is to compete against online companies when they don't even have operational websites, no eBay accounts, or Social Media presence. Even If they do it increases online competition to the point where it's hard for these Local Game Stores to get noticed like on TCGPlayer.

This makes more sense.

I don't have a problem devaluing cards by printing them. The health of the game depends on accessibility, and for older formats and commander being too expensive is a bigger issue than LGS availability. Yes, LGS (and online stores like SCG) rely on the secondary market, buying cards at below market value and selling at a profit. The risk of that strategy is that it's speculation. Usually they make money from it, but there is always a risk that cards will drop in value, either due to rotation, the hot deck that needs it going out of fashion, or reprints. The LGS business model needs to adapt to where the secondary market is a supplement to their business model rather than an integral part of it. Not for any moral reason, but because doing so will make their businesses more stable and resilient to market shocks.

Why WotC thinks at home play is the majority: surveys. They do a fair amount of market research to determine how people play the game and what players like and want so they can target products to them. The reason you see premium products and stuff like that is because their market research told them a significant enough portion of the player base wants those products. You see the major commitment to EDH because they found it was the most popular format after 60 card casual, and they built brawl in the hopes of building on that. They know that at home play is still the most common way people engage with magic, with casual and EDH leading that. At home players tend to spend less on cards than FNM warriors, but there are more of them and they tend to buy packs. I think Wizards isnt about to abandon the LGS because they make money from them, tournament engagement increases the amount people spend on magic, and limited moves packs. Getting people who play at home into their local LGS makes wizards money by getting them to spend more. They want both market share and dollars per player, so both groups are important.

As for long term LGS viability, it was a struggle before COVID. Stores in big cities with a younger population do well, as do stores in college towns, because they have a large customer base to draw on. Stores in more rural areas, or smaller suburbs, struggle because there just aren't enough customers. You need a certain concentration of nerd culture involved people to serve for a nerd culture exclusive business to thrive, even when your pretty diversified within that culture and selling comics and games in addition to running DND campaigns Warhammer tourneys and Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon events. I think a plausible business model for these areas where LGS struggle is to run it as a combination business with some other sort of thing, like a bowling alley or skating rink. Most such places have sizeable party rooms that can host events, and areas that usually have pool tables and arcade games that could be retrofitted as the sales floor for product. Or a diner, I have a couple in my area that have large banquet areas that they use to host gaming clubs during the day and are usually empty at night. And by gaming clubs, I mean just old people playing bridge and stuff. One even has an area thats basically a couple chairs and some decorations that's as large as the sales floor in most LGS and off to the side. Imagine running FNM and having players order their food from you instead of bringing McDonald's. There's potential here, it just requires innovation, something that has been really lacking in the LGS sector. It's still operating under the model that worked in the 90s,