Kraj - Mato and Ghosting are claiming/asking about whether to claim to save themselves. You're MIA completely. You're still near the top of my list. Please do something. Make a case for yourself, or one of the others.
I'm vanilla, I've admittedly been lurky, and people have been calling me scum left and right all game. It's hard to argue with being vigged under those circumstances, and I'd rather be vigged than lynched. That said, my posts may be few but have always included actual content; I've analyzed players and made cases, I've answered questions directed at me, I've attempted to generate discussion in places other people weren't talking about, I've been unafraid to post unpopular opinions, and I'm trying to be relevant despite the massive amount of content generated while I was away. In short, if people find me scummy I can't help that, nor can I magically force myself to be better at finding scum, but I thought my play made it clear I was trying.
It doesn't help that, like Seppel, my item is better gone from the game than in the hands of scum. I have the Goldeneye Key, which makes the holder's killing ability unblockable. Being a "key" I suspect there is a 'lock' counterparty item it combines with. I'm inclined to pass it to Proph, Silver, or Blosc tonight, as they are my strongest townreads but obviously at this point I would do whatever the consensus is.
Kraj- "My playstyle is very time-consuming and apparently not working very well, I'm frustrated that I keep getting called scum without reasons, or for reasons I can't do anything about..."
Most of us don't know him so the first part about a time-consuming play-style garners a shrug. The "apparently not working part" I'm unclear on. What part isn't working well?
Unless you, Mindreaver, and NAG are all good liars, then my accuracy has been poor. If I'm not being effective and getting called scum at the same time, I'd say that's not 'working very well'.
"...or for reasons I can't do anything about..." why can't he do anything about it? He could provide a defense for literally any attack under the sun.
I can't defend against attacks like "I don't like that post from Kraj". 90% of the negative comments about me have been vague or emotion-based. Almost everyone has called me scum at some point despite there never being an actual case made against me, or even more than one vote at a time. So... I dunno how to defend against that.
Regarding a not-me Vig: Matowar seems a fine choice to me. I still think the scum is likely lurking, as that's a tried and true method, and I don't have a solid behavior scumread on anyone. A very large portion of Matowar's posts have been 'helpful townie' or commenting about the game instead of real content. Jobie and IAMB have been similarly lurky; Jobie's posts seem to have more content but I don't get a good vibe from his posts. I don't think IMAB's 'good guy' breadcrumb means anything when we've established PM's contain a variety of language and some people aren't even sure of their own alignments, and I've seen little else from him except to say his breadcrumb makes him town.
Also, why do you think I'm town? You've defended or deflected from my lynch and I'm curious why. You may have already said why but I can't remember off the top of my head.
Have I, other than asking just now whether lurking scum could be why your wagon hasn't taken off? It's not so much that I think you're town, it's that I've not seen much of a reason to think you're scum, and the reasons other people are giving for voting you - like overexplaining, and making one statement as if you knew a player's alignment (GJ, I think it was?) - have not convinced me.
I believe Mindreaver's claim. I thought he was town prior to it, and the claim tracks logically with his behavior.
Silver is extremely likely to be town. Genuine earnestness, effort, and definitively claiming Town X as his role format, when someone he would know is town (me) is telling him to his face that is what isn't in mine.
Prophylaxis is probably town. I've considered that he could be bussing Ghosting, but I think he's 100% town in Town!Ghosting worlds, and still like, 92% town in Scum!Ghosting worlds. His play just doesn't track as scum, and my uneasiness with him is probbbbbably just a function of Town!Proph getting lazy.
Brinatoo
Gentleman Johnny
Ghosting
Hunger
Huntzilla (r. Dragon_Reign)
Jobie
Kraj
Matowar77
Seppel
TappingStones
imabusinessman
not_a_gimmick
---
I see very few worlds in which Not A Gimmick is mafia. He was my strongest town read early in the game, and his behavior tracks logically with someone who is townsiding, but lacks the desire and motivation to push the game forward, as long as the lynch is on someone he's cool with it happening.
I think I...mostly? Believe Gentleman Johnny's claim. I do think there's something one of the two isn't telling us, but I don't think it's strictly malicious.
---
Bloscovi
Mindreaver
SilverCrys3467 (r. Hardwood_Paneling)
Prophylaxis not_a_gimmick
Gentleman Johnny
There's 3-4 mafia in those ten names. Can we just kill them all?
What do you mean 'Probably not'. Ugh.
---
TappingStones is probably town. He's probably the read that I'd be least surprised if he turned out to be scum, out of my town reads, because he just feels like scum deep in my gut. It's not even something I can fully articulate. Some of his posts just feel like he made them strictly because he thought he should be making them, to look town, rather than them being a natural progression of his thought process. His reads have been starkly different to mine all game (he's pushed on me, he's pushed on Proph, he's pushed on Mindreaver, and I think one more I'm forgetting). He's been abrasive, borderline toxic, and I've had to restrain myself from just replacing out at multiple points rather than deal with him. But he's probably town. There's a certain kind of conviction and energy and consistency in his posts that I struggle to see him replicate as scum. He has fallen off in that regard the last 4-5 days, but he's probably town.
Seppel is also in that pile of 'probably town, but wouldn't be shocked if he's scum'. The claim is weird. I don't think it made sense as claimed from a town perspective, but it's...Seppel. Trying to be too clever for his own good is par for the course. He lacks...fire. He's posted plenty, but where is the desire and effort and energy? I'd feel a lot better about Seppel if I thought he cared about anything he's said or tried to push this game. I'll spend an hour on Seppel's ISO at some point, but I think he's just...had too little motivation in anything he's posted, to be scum. Very blase, very casual, very open despite lacking any kind of passion, energy, or effort.
Brinatoo
Ghosting
Hunger
Huntzilla (r. Dragon_Reign)
Jobie
Kraj
Matowar77
imabusinessman
---
That's all of my decent strength town reads (or not-mafia reads, in NAG/GJ's case).
There are very likely 3-4 mafia in the remaining 8 names.
I do not feel extremely strongly about any of them, except Ghosting, and even that has been shaken a little bit with this claim talk.
Going to talk about each of them, but there's a lot of waffling going on here. I can see any of these 8 as either alignment.
---
My gut says Matowar is probably town. I don't like most of his posts, I really don't. But I read them in isolation, and I try to put myself in his head, where it's his first scum game, and I just really struggle to see him making some of the nuances in posts he is as scum. I would not expect him to be role playing so enthusiastically, either. Maybe it's poor reasoning, but given he was mislynched in his first game, that has to be a hit to the confidence. To come out in the second game as scum for the first time and immediately draw attention to yourself just strikes me as very unlikely for scum to do. But oh man, are some of his posts so, so, so scummy in a vaccuum, especially when coupled with his inactivity, and popping in to make one weak post, then vanishing again, it's just. Ergh. Gut read. Light town. Would not shed a tear if he died at some point, but I'd rather it not be day one.
Huntzilla is another gut light town read. It's not something I can articulate well. It's more that I can track most of his thought processes, and I've liked most of his posts. And I'll be honest, I think a little bit of it is a kind of contrarian attitude, because the reason people are giving me for scum reading him is 'He's not this competent as town', and that's kind of bull. I think I want him to be town, because that's kind of hilariously insulting (and a ittle bit hilarious) if it's correct.
Brinatoo
Ghosting
Hunger
Jobie
Kraj
imabusinessman
---
And then there were six.
It almost feels too easy?
I still think Ghosting is scum. It makes sense when considering the gamestate, when considering his reaction, and when considering the interactions of others with him and the wagon. I'm sure he's going to claim something that will deter the lynch, though, so I'm trying to at least consider worlds where he's town. But I just. Really don't think I'll believe it until he's dead.
Even if I treat him as Schrodinger's Slot, where he's both town and scum depending on the claim, that leaves 5 names.
---
Brinatoo is interesting. In a vaccuum, there's very little I really dislike. The early game back and forth with TS felt natural, but the problem with that is the same problem I have with Kraj. It's the easiest thing in the world to fake. Because there's absolutely going to be genuine frustration and a lack of understanding when dealing with TappingStone, as either alignment. It's Brina/Kraj the person who is having that frustration and trying to understand, rather than Brina/Kraj the player. I originally town read them both for it, but the more I read back over it, the more null I think it is. The big thing(s) I don't like about Brina is the opportunistic vote on Silver, and then trying to play it off as a reaction test when I called him out on it being opportunistic. His interactions with the Ghosting wagon also are kind of...weird? In that he was testing the waters, but not committing. I think in Town!Ghosting worlds, Brinatoo is very likely scum.
Kraj ... think it's ultimately null. But the NAG vote felt out of place, and the Mindreaver push was bad. I acknowledge that he's been on vacation, but there's also the issue with activity/investment. I don't feel like he's trying to figure out the game, I just feel like he's kind of popping in like 'Yep still playing'.
Yep, that's fair. My playstyle is very time-consuming and apparently not working very well, I'm frustrated that I keep getting called scum without reasons, or for reasons I can't do anything about, the vacation timing just made it even harder to keep up, and I see very little of actual cases and reasons being made by other people that I can get behind. Top it off with finding out that multiple players aren't or weren't sure of their own alignments, that's not a normal game and that's not what I signed up for.
If we guess or assume that NaG thought he was town (because his role PM didn't explicitly say he was neutral) we could probably further assume that he thought his "lover" might be scum.
If he thought his lover was scum, he would want to out himself to his lover to ensure he doesn't draw the NK without claiming Lover because we might try to lynch him to get his lover.
This makes sense, but I'd rather have heard it from NAG. However,
Also, you guys are asking my thought process, that's what I gave you. I'm not posting "new information" because that wasn't what your problem was with my original post. It wasn't "Where are your scumreads" it was "we don't understand why you'd think that way". So that's what I posted.
My accusation was neither, it's that your reasons are bad or non-existent. You ignore all points I made against you then call me scum for no reason, calling Ghosting scum specifically because other people are, you name three people "strong" scum in post 708 without any reason but then summarily dismis all of them as lynches because NONE of them provide any information (wah?), you say IAMB is the scummiest player in the game for lurking and being "flagrantly unhelpful" and have been voting him almost the whole game but then consistently saying Ghosting or I is the better lynch without voting either of us.
So in a nutshell you're not really pushing anyone, just supporting wagons other people start, while your actions don't match your thought process.
Many of his posts I have minor issues with - barning reasons for vote on TS wagon in post 84; ignoring Jobie's valid attack of wagon-hopping in favor of asking GJ for reasons in 201; throwaway vote on IAMB in 267. Post 259 is what does it for me, though:
When pressured for scum reads, he comes up with Seppel for being Seppel (while also suspiciously borrowing phrasing from NAG's post 125 regarding Proph coaching Mindreaver; clearly that post caught his attention), IAMB for being "unhelpful" (scum love to get the town to view players as being difficult or not contributing when there's nothing to otherwise justify an attack), and Matowar for better reasons but that ultimately are just a fence sit. Futher, his Matowar vote follows Seppel's (one of his scum reads) vote just 10 posts prior at a time when there is no other wagon to divert attention to (he's already voting TS, which is a dead wagon, and Ghosting's wagon had been stalled out for a while already).
Seriously though, do you guys not realize why I actually claimed now?
I wasn't going to claim the lovers part, but I wanted my other half to know who I was.
Maybe I would have if I had realized I wasn't town.
Actually this does nothing to explain. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see why it's important for your partner to know who you are immediately. What's the risk? Why wouldn't it be way, way, way, better to wait until you were under pressure to claim? I would have totally called B.S. on not knowing your own alignment if other people hadn't apparently had the same problem. Which, in a Normal game, is completely absurd. But whatever. It is what it is.
I find it hilarious that everyone is quick to lament my 'horrible' vote on NAG and call me scum for it while agreeing with my logic and not bothering to say where or why it goes wrong, or even whether I'm wrong at all. I was well-aware the vote would be controversial; I'm not surprised no one agreed with me because the strength of the evidence isn't there, but I still think I'm right.
@Kraj - Reconcile your attack on TS for not thinking through both town and scum motivations of NAG's claim while you are voting NAG here and seemingly not considering the town/neutral motivations.
Fair question, but I had already considered the town motivation. My immediate reaction to NAG's claim was that James Bond is obvtown and he claimed either because he wanted the attention drawn to himself for some reason, or he literally claimed just "because it's awesome" (and it is). A neutral motivation is irrelevant because he thought he was town at the time.
2) Is my wagon better than the earlier ones on TappingStones and Mindreaver?
3) Who's your top scum read?
It'd be cool if you gave us a T/S list, too.
1. Will have to read it carefully, but I thought your vote on Seppel was for a better reason than his vote on you.
2. Define "better". But considering those two wagons are the ones I was on, probably not.
3. Seeing as how I'm voting Mindreaver... That said:
So early on NAG comes out and claims James Bond and TS in particular doesn't understand why a Townie would do such a thing. Possible reasons other than " because its awesome" are pure speculation, but what is certain is that NAG does not fear a mafia NK.
Then GJ, whom I and several others read as town and (iirc) was under no pressure, claims neutral lover w NAG. I believe him. Notably, he assumes NAG is also neutral, meaning Iso intentionally did not confirm the lover's alignments to each other. Unless I missed it, GJ did not claim his role name, but when someone said Natalya he didn't deny.
Seppel then claims Boris, a character that flavor-wise should obviously be mafia. Again, he does this unprompted and his reasoning makes sense, and I'm inclined to believe him.
The role PM 'fiasco' further reinforces that the mod is blurring alignment lines.
I am a Siberian Guard and am vanilla town, though I do have an item. Flavor-wise my expectation for a Russian guard would be mafia goon.
So we have an obvmafia character as town, a generic bad guy as town, an obvtown character as neutral lover with an ambiguously aligned James Bond as a partner.
So why would James Bond claim during RVS without fear of a mafia NK? Because the mafia know from their collective roles that alignments don't all match flavor, but NAG assumed we would never lynch James Bond, especially with lover status.
Well, browser just ate my post, so here's the short version.
Mod: I unvoted TappingStones in post 121 and have not voted since. I will also be on vacation a few days this week but will stay as current as I can.
Vote: Mindreaver
Many of his posts I have minor issues with - barning reasons for vote on TS wagon in post 84; ignoring Jobie's valid attack of wagon-hopping in favor of asking GJ for reasons in 201; throwaway vote on IAMB in 267. Post 259 is what does it for me, though:
@Mindreaver: Of the people on your wagon, who is the strongest scum read, and who is the other strongest scum read from people off your wagon?
I'm so paranoid about that right now. I'll explain.
On the wagon, I think it's clear the worst vote is Seppel. Jobbie I've re-evaluated a bit, and his reasoning was fine. As you just explained yours, I'm okay with that too. I still don't know what Seppel's reasoning is beyond "I'll buy that for a buck". If ever there was a casual vote on a wagon, that was it.
Off the wagon, I'm frustrated with IABM. These posts are deliberately unhelpful, and whenever he's directly addressed he does something silly like his last post. I really thought I was going to get a real response when he had trouble quoting me last night, but then nothing happened. If I have to go off of general helpfulness to solving the game, he's near the bottom.
The reason I'm paranoid about those two reads, is that they are based off of lack of posts, and lack of analysis more than anything they've done.
I also didn't like matowars post, it was too self-conscious about his own participation. As if to say "I haven't been around but here is everything I think in one long sentence". I'm not sure whether this was somebody in a rush/busy, or somebody trying to appear engaged while really lurking. Time will tell on that one.
When pressured for scum reads, he comes up with Seppel for being Seppel (while also suspiciously borrowing phrasing from NAG's post 125 regarding Proph coaching Mindreaver; clearly that post caught his attention), IAMB for being "unhelpful" (scum love to get the town to view players as being difficult or not contributing when there's nothing to otherwise justify an attack), and Matowar for better reasons but that ultimately are just a fence sit. Futher, his Matowar vote follows Seppel's (one of his scum reads) vote just 10 posts prior at a time when there is no other wagon to divert attention to (he's already voting TS, which is a dead wagon, and Ghosting's wagon had been stalled out for a while already).
That is not to say I'm in love with his posts, I object to the usage of his own scum play in another game to explain your town play in this game (seriously what, I'm almost convincing myself I must have misunderstood everything about it as it makes absolutely no sense) in #121 and I also dislike the appeal to other players (not even as an Appeal to Authority) in #127.
On that note, Kraj I would appreciate a deeper explanation of what your #121's first paragraph is exactly. ELI5, if possible.
I don't know what ELI5 means.
Regarding 127: my initial read on TS is town based on his reactions to my vote and reason. I don't see a scum trying to turn a good wagon around on his attacker, I see a townie who is convinced his attacker must be scum. When I read his subsequent attacks on me, though, I don't see any actual logic. He's accusing me of tells that don't fit his explanations, and presenting facts that - as far as I'm concerned - don't fit reality. Such as accusing me of testing the waters and then backpedaling when I failed to start a wagon. Except I did start a wagon, and other people did agree that TS is suspicious. He's acting as if I made a grande case on him, declared him scum, and then backed off for no reason, when all I did was poke at him for one suspicious thing on page 2 and then got a town read based on his reaction.
So my situation is im being attacked by someone who I think is town, but whose reasoning looks completly unhinged to me. If most people agree with me then id rather resume scumhunting elsewhere, because there's no point in engaging someone who finds fault in literaly everything I say.
If people agree with him, however, then that's an indicator that I'm the one not seeing things properly, and I need to address that. Hence, my question to the players.
Regarding 121, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but I think you want me to explain my town read on TS further. This early in the game, before some players have even posted, there is very little information to work with. Scum tend to lurk and barn while the townies attack each other. Time and time again I've seen town players react to being attacked by concluding their attacker is scum. Its OMGUS behavior, but the reason is because all they know at this point in the game is they are town and scum want them to get lynched. Percieving your attacker to be scum is a common reaction from a town mindset.
The alternative explanation is TS is scum and panicked at being pressured over something he probably thought looked like legitimate scumhunting. But that assumes a big overreaction on his part when he had plenty of less extreme options. It's plausible, but a lot less common than the Townie explanation.
Has anyone played with TappingStones before? Is 'legitimately insane' a common read people have on him?
How is voting for you and then explaining my vote "testing the waters"? How is my vote "completely unfounded" when I did, in fact, state a reason? How have you not OMGUS'd when you call me scum for voting you, and you vote Proph because he voted you? How am I backpedalling and "in over my head" when multiple people have agreed with my vote? How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better? You think you shut my attack down? Multiple people have expressed suspicion of you, but the only person who said they think you're town after this exchange is me. You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
I have seen naked voting a lot in my mafia career. I have done it often, as town and scum. Taken at face value, it's completely null.
You're trying to assign a scum motive for it, without considering the townie side of things.
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
I missed the name of the guy I was voting for. That's a little too sloppy for me, even around RVS. Slowed it back down a bit. Let's hear a response.
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
I'm vanilla, I've admittedly been lurky, and people have been calling me scum left and right all game. It's hard to argue with being vigged under those circumstances, and I'd rather be vigged than lynched. That said, my posts may be few but have always included actual content; I've analyzed players and made cases, I've answered questions directed at me, I've attempted to generate discussion in places other people weren't talking about, I've been unafraid to post unpopular opinions, and I'm trying to be relevant despite the massive amount of content generated while I was away. In short, if people find me scummy I can't help that, nor can I magically force myself to be better at finding scum, but I thought my play made it clear I was trying.
It doesn't help that, like Seppel, my item is better gone from the game than in the hands of scum. I have the Goldeneye Key, which makes the holder's killing ability unblockable. Being a "key" I suspect there is a 'lock' counterparty item it combines with. I'm inclined to pass it to Proph, Silver, or Blosc tonight, as they are my strongest townreads but obviously at this point I would do whatever the consensus is.
Unless you, Mindreaver, and NAG are all good liars, then my accuracy has been poor. If I'm not being effective and getting called scum at the same time, I'd say that's not 'working very well'.
I can't defend against attacks like "I don't like that post from Kraj". 90% of the negative comments about me have been vague or emotion-based. Almost everyone has called me scum at some point despite there never being an actual case made against me, or even more than one vote at a time. So... I dunno how to defend against that.
Regarding a not-me Vig: Matowar seems a fine choice to me. I still think the scum is likely lurking, as that's a tried and true method, and I don't have a solid behavior scumread on anyone. A very large portion of Matowar's posts have been 'helpful townie' or commenting about the game instead of real content. Jobie and IAMB have been similarly lurky; Jobie's posts seem to have more content but I don't get a good vibe from his posts. I don't think IMAB's 'good guy' breadcrumb means anything when we've established PM's contain a variety of language and some people aren't even sure of their own alignments, and I've seen little else from him except to say his breadcrumb makes him town.
Huh? I unvoted because of the claim, which I have no reason to disbelieve.
Have I, other than asking just now whether lurking scum could be why your wagon hasn't taken off? It's not so much that I think you're town, it's that I've not seen much of a reason to think you're scum, and the reasons other people are giving for voting you - like overexplaining, and making one statement as if you knew a player's alignment (GJ, I think it was?) - have not convinced me.
Yep, that's fair. My playstyle is very time-consuming and apparently not working very well, I'm frustrated that I keep getting called scum without reasons, or for reasons I can't do anything about, the vacation timing just made it even harder to keep up, and I see very little of actual cases and reasons being made by other people that I can get behind. Top it off with finding out that multiple players aren't or weren't sure of their own alignments, that's not a normal game and that's not what I signed up for.
Pretty much this.
I don't trust my judgment. IMAB and Jobie?
True, but couldn't the scum also be among the lurkers, replacers, suspend-ed-ers(?), etc.?
This makes sense, but I'd rather have heard it from NAG. However,
YOU'RE AN AWFUL VOTE!
My accusation was neither, it's that your reasons are bad or non-existent. You ignore all points I made against you then call me scum for no reason, calling Ghosting scum specifically because other people are, you name three people "strong" scum in post 708 without any reason but then summarily dismis all of them as lynches because NONE of them provide any information (wah?), you say IAMB is the scummiest player in the game for lurking and being "flagrantly unhelpful" and have been voting him almost the whole game but then consistently saying Ghosting or I is the better lynch without voting either of us.
So in a nutshell you're not really pushing anyone, just supporting wagons other people start, while your actions don't match your thought process.
Actually this does nothing to explain. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see why it's important for your partner to know who you are immediately. What's the risk? Why wouldn't it be way, way, way, better to wait until you were under pressure to claim? I would have totally called B.S. on not knowing your own alignment if other people hadn't apparently had the same problem. Which, in a Normal game, is completely absurd. But whatever. It is what it is.
I find it hilarious that everyone is quick to lament my 'horrible' vote on NAG and call me scum for it while agreeing with my logic and not bothering to say where or why it goes wrong, or even whether I'm wrong at all. I was well-aware the vote would be controversial; I'm not surprised no one agreed with me because the strength of the evidence isn't there, but I still think I'm right.
Fair question, but I had already considered the town motivation. My immediate reaction to NAG's claim was that James Bond is obvtown and he claimed either because he wanted the attention drawn to himself for some reason, or he literally claimed just "because it's awesome" (and it is). A neutral motivation is irrelevant because he thought he was town at the time.
1. Will have to read it carefully, but I thought your vote on Seppel was for a better reason than his vote on you.
2. Define "better". But considering those two wagons are the ones I was on, probably not.
3. Seeing as how I'm voting Mindreaver... That said:
So early on NAG comes out and claims James Bond and TS in particular doesn't understand why a Townie would do such a thing. Possible reasons other than " because its awesome" are pure speculation, but what is certain is that NAG does not fear a mafia NK.
Then GJ, whom I and several others read as town and (iirc) was under no pressure, claims neutral lover w NAG. I believe him. Notably, he assumes NAG is also neutral, meaning Iso intentionally did not confirm the lover's alignments to each other. Unless I missed it, GJ did not claim his role name, but when someone said Natalya he didn't deny.
Seppel then claims Boris, a character that flavor-wise should obviously be mafia. Again, he does this unprompted and his reasoning makes sense, and I'm inclined to believe him.
The role PM 'fiasco' further reinforces that the mod is blurring alignment lines.
I am a Siberian Guard and am vanilla town, though I do have an item. Flavor-wise my expectation for a Russian guard would be mafia goon.
So we have an obvmafia character as town, a generic bad guy as town, an obvtown character as neutral lover with an ambiguously aligned James Bond as a partner.
So why would James Bond claim during RVS without fear of a mafia NK? Because the mafia know from their collective roles that alignments don't all match flavor, but NAG assumed we would never lynch James Bond, especially with lover status.
unvote, vote: not a gimmick
Yeah, that'll happen when I lose a post. Just mispoke is all. "Vote" should be "scumread".
Nope. Not playing any other games at all.
Mod: I unvoted TappingStones in post 121 and have not voted since. I will also be on vacation a few days this week but will stay as current as I can.
Vote: Mindreaver
Many of his posts I have minor issues with - barning reasons for vote on TS wagon in post 84; ignoring Jobie's valid attack of wagon-hopping in favor of asking GJ for reasons in 201; throwaway vote on IAMB in 267. Post 259 is what does it for me, though:
When pressured for scum reads, he comes up with Seppel for being Seppel (while also suspiciously borrowing phrasing from NAG's post 125 regarding Proph coaching Mindreaver; clearly that post caught his attention), IAMB for being "unhelpful" (scum love to get the town to view players as being difficult or not contributing when there's nothing to otherwise justify an attack), and Matowar for better reasons but that ultimately are just a fence sit. Futher, his Matowar vote follows Seppel's (one of his scum reads) vote just 10 posts prior at a time when there is no other wagon to divert attention to (he's already voting TS, which is a dead wagon, and Ghosting's wagon had been stalled out for a while already).
I don't know what ELI5 means.
Regarding 127: my initial read on TS is town based on his reactions to my vote and reason. I don't see a scum trying to turn a good wagon around on his attacker, I see a townie who is convinced his attacker must be scum. When I read his subsequent attacks on me, though, I don't see any actual logic. He's accusing me of tells that don't fit his explanations, and presenting facts that - as far as I'm concerned - don't fit reality. Such as accusing me of testing the waters and then backpedaling when I failed to start a wagon. Except I did start a wagon, and other people did agree that TS is suspicious. He's acting as if I made a grande case on him, declared him scum, and then backed off for no reason, when all I did was poke at him for one suspicious thing on page 2 and then got a town read based on his reaction.
So my situation is im being attacked by someone who I think is town, but whose reasoning looks completly unhinged to me. If most people agree with me then id rather resume scumhunting elsewhere, because there's no point in engaging someone who finds fault in literaly everything I say.
If people agree with him, however, then that's an indicator that I'm the one not seeing things properly, and I need to address that. Hence, my question to the players.
Regarding 121, I'm not 100% sure what you're asking but I think you want me to explain my town read on TS further. This early in the game, before some players have even posted, there is very little information to work with. Scum tend to lurk and barn while the townies attack each other. Time and time again I've seen town players react to being attacked by concluding their attacker is scum. Its OMGUS behavior, but the reason is because all they know at this point in the game is they are town and scum want them to get lynched. Percieving your attacker to be scum is a common reaction from a town mindset.
The alternative explanation is TS is scum and panicked at being pressured over something he probably thought looked like legitimate scumhunting. But that assumes a big overreaction on his part when he had plenty of less extreme options. It's plausible, but a lot less common than the Townie explanation.
How is voting for you and then explaining my vote "testing the waters"? How is my vote "completely unfounded" when I did, in fact, state a reason? How have you not OMGUS'd when you call me scum for voting you, and you vote Proph because he voted you? How am I backpedalling and "in over my head" when multiple people have agreed with my vote? How do you think a phony attack on you could have gone any better? You think you shut my attack down? Multiple people have expressed suspicion of you, but the only person who said they think you're town after this exchange is me. You want to convince me otherwise? By all means, keep attacking me and whoever else is suspicious of you while contributing nothing else.
This nicely sums up my problem with TS's play, and his entire reaction to the pressure on him has been OMGUS, with flimsy or inconsistent logic. I've also seen scum implode to pressure on less evidence than this on day 1. If it were later in the game and I had made a full case on him and strongly felt he's scum, then I'd dismiss his defense as desperate flailing and push for his lynch. However, time and time again I've seen townies - particularly on day 1 - get stuck in the mindset that anyone attacking them must be scum because the only thing they know for sure is they are town. In fact, I just finished a game Manders ran on DiesToRemoval as scum and used that exact reaction to push a case on a townie. That's the read I get off of TS here and I'm reasonably certain he's town.
Unvote
Regarding my play history, I semi-retired years ago and only join a game once in a while. Return to Amistaria might be the most recent town game, and Cyberspace the scum game. I can easily name older, more memorable games if you want. I earned a town MVP in my very first game, Mushroom Kingdom, and in Inheritance. I pulled off a miracle mafia win in Fairytale mini, and as a wacky neutral in Sword of Truth. More?
Also, why do you ask?
I assume the "slowdown" is also why you didn't revote the correct player?
I understand your confused reaction at the James Bond claim. It's a natural, townie reaction to wonder why on earth a townie would do such a thing. Why didn't you give any thought to why a scum would? What does "trying too hard" mean?
On one hand you're confused about why NAG would claim the name in the game for no apparent reason and think through the reasons aloud. On the other hand, you're confident enough that it's either "fake" and "trying too hard", or a "terrible move", and you vote. The reasoning is flimsy, and the "lying or playing badly" accusation is a false dichotomy scum love to use. Combine that with the sloppiness of getting the name wrong, and the backpedaling 'slowdown', it looks a lot less like trying to figure the situation out and a lot more like fear of James Bond.
Word.
That's stupid.
Unvote, Vote: Tapping Stones
FoS: Hardwood Paneling Because I haven't Fingered anyone in yeeeeeears?