A friend's cube does a separate land draft at the end. Lands that do something other than just provide a single mana are in the main draft though (manlands, academy, etc.) It is fun every once in a while but it really skews things. There is no need to be disciplined during the main draft. 5 color control is easy. He uses the tri-lands in addition to all the duals/shocks/fetches and others. Might be different if they aren't all included.
I don't think this has been mentioned but since this doesn't target (like Diabolic Edict) it can get around players that have hexproof. Not sure how much of that is in people's cubes but it might be a consideration.
How do people shuffle large cubes? We normally just put all the cards on the table and mix them like when cooking a soup. Not sure if it's the most effective way but is quicker than shuffling a bunch of 60-card piles.
I pile shuffle them into about 50 piles ahead of the draft. Doesn't take too long. I pile them face-up, it is a nice way to review the cube contents before a session. Sometimes I am reminded of a card that I don't have much play with that I want to try. I riffle the piles a bit as I gather them up and put them back in the box. Then there is further randomization when we make the packs later on.
I don't think this is true. Armageddon is strong because it is a powered environment. It allows aggro, with its otherwise under-powered creatures to compete by keeping the game in the early stages mana-wise where it has the advantage.
Similar, but opposite, for wrath of god. It allows control to bridge the gap between the early stage and mid/late stage by resetting the board in the stage where it has an advantage.
Do you play with cubes that don't support aggro? If so I can see Armageddon and Wrath being 'not quite' as strong. But even then, they situationally will be very good. Just not so much in the scripted "aggro plays out their hand then 'geddons on turn 4 or control wraths on turn 4".
This is basically a "good card is good" post. I had it last weekend in a RWu midrange deck. One game I had Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Monastery Mentor spewing tokens. I fractured my opponent's Goblin Bombardment with about 12 tokens in play.
Another game I fractured Pithing Needle which was naming my Ajani Vengeant. I named my opponent's Hazoret with my new copy. Speaks to how good this is compared to other "steal a permanent" variants that don't give you the etb ability.
This might be better on the SCD but since Land Tax is being discussed: I had it in WRu midrange this weekend. Kept a hand on the play with it and City of Brass. Had to skip my 2nd land drop (didn't have a land to play but would have skipped it anyway to trigger tax) and over the next 3-4 turns pulled all 7 basics out of my deck. I had to search up less than 3 some turns to avoid discarding.
So a 7 for one. Sure, they are all lands but now I will hit the rest of my drops, I have tons of non-land cards in hand since I kept a one-lander, and my draw steps are less likely to be lands.
Vial has three main benefits: virtual mana production, playing creatures with flash, making them uncounterable. The first is the biggest benefit and is really only realized in an aggressive deck. If you can't capitalize on that I don't think the other two alone are worth it. In a non-aggro deck or a slower cube that doesn't really have aggro I don't think it would be very good. Even if you can draft a good aggro deck if you are playing against more than one opponent you probably don't want to draft aggro. They have trouble killing more than one opponent.
Hmmm... I agree on the topdeck. The mill could move them closer to something they want in their hand or put something in their graveyard that they would rather have in their hand. And thus is neutral (or zero-sum as you put it).
Is it different for the graveyard? Maybe you are right... You can obv put something there that they want there; which is bad. You could also put something there that they don't want there but maybe this is already part of the topdeck analysis...and so it shouldn't be considered an advantage twice.
If that is true then milling your opponent is always a downside; because it potentially gives them resources (assume you don't know their deck). Unless of course you are going to eventually deck them.
I think I buy it. If decking is not going to happen (assume infinite libraries) then a card that is the same as Lightning Bolt, except it also mills three from your opponent, is strictly worse then actual Lightning Bolt because it could give your opponent resources.
Would you agree with that?
Sorry to hijack the thread with more a general conversation....
This was one of my first thoughts but I think the "always loot" maxim applies and the effect is neutral. There is an equal chance that you mill stuff they don't want in their graveyard (their reanimation effects, etc.) as there is that you mill stuff they do want (fatties).
Haven't checked the math but yes, if the probability of drawing one or more cards on one trigger is 82% then the probability of drawing 0 is 18%.
I don't think most cubes want this card. An 18% of getting nothing a turn later makes it not worth it. I realize you get more triggers later but that is a long time to wait for a payoff You might have lost by then and the reason you lose is probably because you spent a turn casting a 5-mana spell that did nothing.
I don't have any experience with cubes that have a mill archetype but maybe it would be fine there.
Very rarely do I enjoy having functional reprints in cube. ... bolt and the 2 drop burn spells are often splashed by opposing control/midrange decks. ...Nothing wrong with it per se but I have had to adjust to make sure the red deck gets what it needs to win. I am currently only playing incinerate of those three and have tried a lot of other things in their place
Isn't control/midrange snatching up the burn an argument for including more functional reprints? That way the red deck has more chances to get what it needs?
Sounds like this might be a natural successor for us.
I pile shuffle them into about 50 piles ahead of the draft. Doesn't take too long. I pile them face-up, it is a nice way to review the cube contents before a session. Sometimes I am reminded of a card that I don't have much play with that I want to try. I riffle the piles a bit as I gather them up and put them back in the box. Then there is further randomization when we make the packs later on.
Similar, but opposite, for wrath of god. It allows control to bridge the gap between the early stage and mid/late stage by resetting the board in the stage where it has an advantage.
Do you play with cubes that don't support aggro? If so I can see Armageddon and Wrath being 'not quite' as strong. But even then, they situationally will be very good. Just not so much in the scripted "aggro plays out their hand then 'geddons on turn 4 or control wraths on turn 4".
Another game I fractured Pithing Needle which was naming my Ajani Vengeant. I named my opponent's Hazoret with my new copy. Speaks to how good this is compared to other "steal a permanent" variants that don't give you the etb ability.
So a 7 for one. Sure, they are all lands but now I will hit the rest of my drops, I have tons of non-land cards in hand since I kept a one-lander, and my draw steps are less likely to be lands.
Won that game easily.
Is it different for the graveyard? Maybe you are right... You can obv put something there that they want there; which is bad. You could also put something there that they don't want there but maybe this is already part of the topdeck analysis...and so it shouldn't be considered an advantage twice.
If that is true then milling your opponent is always a downside; because it potentially gives them resources (assume you don't know their deck). Unless of course you are going to eventually deck them.
I think I buy it. If decking is not going to happen (assume infinite libraries) then a card that is the same as Lightning Bolt, except it also mills three from your opponent, is strictly worse then actual Lightning Bolt because it could give your opponent resources.
Would you agree with that?
Sorry to hijack the thread with more a general conversation....
This was one of my first thoughts but I think the "always loot" maxim applies and the effect is neutral. There is an equal chance that you mill stuff they don't want in their graveyard (their reanimation effects, etc.) as there is that you mill stuff they do want (fatties).
Haven't checked the math but yes, if the probability of drawing one or more cards on one trigger is 82% then the probability of drawing 0 is 18%.
I don't think most cubes want this card. An 18% of getting nothing a turn later makes it not worth it. I realize you get more triggers later but that is a long time to wait for a payoff You might have lost by then and the reason you lose is probably because you spent a turn casting a 5-mana spell that did nothing.
I don't have any experience with cubes that have a mill archetype but maybe it would be fine there.
Isn't control/midrange snatching up the burn an argument for including more functional reprints? That way the red deck has more chances to get what it needs?