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  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I kind of expect a mono color set, the past three God groups were that. But I’m hoping they’ll do some tricolor still.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Tricolor deities would be nice. Maybe five mono color and ten tri? Or maybe just picking wedge or shard
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Bolas was the focus of a core set, as was Teferi. Huatli I believe was the face of the second Ixalan block. And yep, Saheeli was the face of Kaladesh.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from Xeruh »
    There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
    Sounds like Fake News to me when the "ulterior motive" you've inferred is only your own delusion.



    You’re welcome to say that but again the pattern is rather clear.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    There isn’t any merit in trying to go over an argument with an ulterior motive. If someone is arguing in bad faith you’re simply wasting your time. The issue in his examples has zero to do with Kaya as a character after all,
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on KHM- Kaldheim story and flavor
    Honestly can't agree. Kruphix even acknowledged the Theros gods weren't omnipotent, and even a random mortal could ascend once he figured out they weren't. In most mythology as well it isn't Gods >>>>>>>>>> the rest. You can have perfectly mortal beings doing amazing things, or half deities taking on Titans. Gods fall from their spot, and mortals can rise up to that same level as well. Honestly if they made Theros deities so amazing nothing could stop them but other Theros deities that wouldn't be at all accurate to Greek mythology.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    One thing I do find kind of silly about the whole Kaya argument is that all they did was give Kaya some neat/unique powers. If they wanted to kill off the Obezdat or Brago or any other characters they don't need Kaya, they just come up with some other justification for their demise. Again, if you're upset about Kaya because she will "kill" people in Kaldheim (which isn't even a known and again not something exclusive to her) then you're missing the point that they don't need to use Kaya to kill people. If you remove Kaya from Kaldheim the net body count is going to be the same, they'll just have Chandra blow them up or Nissa turn them into a tree or whatever else. The reasons might be mildly different but long run I don't see any change.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist

    I was making the argument that she's a capitalist under definition two (2), rather than one (1)

    capitalist noun
    Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
    1: a person who has capital especially invested in business
    industrial capitalists
    broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
    Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
    2: a person who favors capitalism

    Motivations matter less than what kind of system the political actor is in support of and advocates. You are correct in that Capitialism is not exclusive in its emphasis upon transactions, yet the way that Kaya frames these contractual relationships in the flavor texts, story narratives and other texts suggests to me at least that she would indeed qualify as a capitalist.

    Furthermore, capitalists do not advocate that a supplier of a good or service would or should charge a price that the buyer *cannot afford if such a supplier was truly mindful of their own self-interest. By definition, if a buyer purchases the good or service from the supplier than the price was fair, as the buyer would not purchase said good or service at a cost higher than the alternative options available or even the cost of maintaining the status quo.

    The concept of fair trade is not incongruent with Capitalists nor Capitalism.

    In short, I think we have different understandings of what it means to be a capitalist. All your other points, particularly those regarding this forum's unfair critique against Kaya is however spot on in my opinion.


    Honestly given the utter... mess that is most people trying to defend attacking Kaya while being hypocritical I'll probably just ignore it and reply to this.

    1. Kaya doesn't really seem to favor capitalism though either. I'm not even sure any of the Planes we have been on run under Capitalism, maybe Vryn as it seems like maybe it has a modernish analog.

    2. I'm... not sure in what way her flavor text indicates a desire to own capital, which is the only real thing capitalism has specifically for it as opposed to any other transaction based system.

    3. I'll grant perhaps I am including corporations and not just capitalism in a vacuum with this, but at this stage it is nigh impossible to separate the two. There isn't a Capitalist America (or other country) that isn't impacted by corporations, and those absolutely do advocate for putting profit as high as they can get away with, which isn't a trait I've observed in Kaya.

    4. Fair trade is absolutely incompatible though with Capitalism. By owning capital you are by necessity not engaging in fair trade with the workers. It isn't a 1:1 transaction where the scales are balanced on both sides.

    5. We do seem to be in agreement on Kaya and the bizarre critique of her certainly. I just find it rather baffling. People complain about her being an assassin, except that people whined that Garruk did not kill enough named characters. People say they only care about her because she's killing off fan favorites, but... no one liked Brago or the Obzedat for their own sake as near as I can tell. Like, mechanically sure, but as characters? Kaya is too powerful, except that people levy that on Kaya specifically instead of walkers in general, all the while ignoring the fact she has a specific "anti-ghost" set up. Anti-ghost Assassin is going to be pretty good at killing arrogant ghosts who don't expect anyone can kill them, especially when, again, they receive support from others. Kaya is too influential, except that the only actions she has taken have been at the behest of others, which is also somehow a bad thing. It's just pretty ridiculous all around. She's greedy, except she does countless things that indicate money is not the primary factor. Wanting to be paid fairly for a service does not mean you're in it only for the money. So on and so forth. All the while complaining about her being not fleshed out enough (yet they somehow can come up with pages of stuff to complain about) and not wanting to let her get more attention to actually get more fleshed out, because... they're upset that she may kill someone who has no story relevance.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    [quote from="Xeruh »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/819540-kaldheim-packaging?comment=70"]Snip


    1. All Planeswalkers are vigilantes just about. We literally had an entire block where every heroic Planeswalker was rebelling. Being a vigilante does not somehow mean that they are evil. And caring about consequences doesn't mean that you have to constantly avoid them, sometimes you accept them because it's in service to a better purpose. Like, you know, dethroning an immortal tyrant. Or a group of immortal tyrants.

    2. I'm talking about when we were first introduced to her, where she let the mother avenge herself on her son. If she only cared about money she could have blackmailed him or any number of other options, or even simply just done her job and killed the ghost. She didn't, she let justice be done. As for the others with Brago he couldn't stick around, nor could the Obzedat.

    3. Reckless is not the same as greedy though, which is how you tried to portray her. Yes, she clearly didn't realize what kind of impact that would cause. At the same time there is hardly any positive to be said about building an entire system and economy around slavery even after death, so I would say she was well within her right to do so. Again, if she was greedy she would have just kept the status quo. Your claim that all she cares about money holds zero weight.

    4. You're welcome to call it petty, but your points are shoddy and inconsistent. At best you're trying to argue for the sake of it, at worst you legitimately don't like Kaya for the reasons insinuated and are trying to cover it up. Argue better before you start trying to throw out pithy quips. Your attempt at "rebuking" me did nothing at all.

    5. Except again she doesn't do things for short term benefit. What possible short term benefit was there in freeing the ghosts? No one was asking for that. She did it because she felt it was wrong. Shockingly, most people would say slavery, especially after death, is a bad thing. I would bet Gideon would do the same thing in her position.

    6. Nonwalkers are utterly irrelevant when the point is a comparison of planeswalker to other planeswalkers. I didn't once say "only Planeswalkers can cause change", what I said is that by their nature Planeswalkers almost inevitably cause change. The exceptions to that are... what, probably small enough to count on one hand. So it's not a Kaya problem.

    7. What I am saying is that if you replaced Kaya with Chandra I can guarantee the plane of Kaldheim would still wind up destabilized. And so on and so forth with most Planeswalkers. If Kaya is the center of change (which isn't even a guarantee) it's not like any other Walker couldn't come in and still create a great amount of change.

    8. What you said is not remotely different in any meaningful sense, trying to reword what I said and pass it off as a new point isn't going to fly here. Yes, Planeswalkers are at the center of planar conflict on either side of the conflict, that's how it is. Usually it's bringing about a great change, sometimes it's responding to another outsider trying to cause said change.

    9. I don't need to define it, feel free to point to the last time we didn't have one. Outside of Zendikar just going back to normal (relatively speaking, and that's in response to the last time we went there being even more drastic than normal change wise) it has been a long while since we went to a block where relatively nothing major changed on the plane. And even that was still centered on the Roil, which would be a huge change to the plane if it went away.

    10. Whether or not it is a good story trait is irrelevant to the point that it is a constant thing for Planeswalkers in general, not Kaya specifically. You can complain about WotC and how they approach story all you want, but pointing the fingers at Kaya and acting like she somehow is at fault is absurd.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    And none of those are reasonable issues. First one she let justice take its course, not about killing without caring about consequences. If she didn’t care about the outcome and only wanted money she could even have tried to the guy. She killed an immortal dictator, which is not a good thing to have around. And then... went on to go kill another immortal dictator council. She was forced into control of it by Bolas, that’s on him. That she tried to free the ghosts shows, again, isn’t only in it for the money. Your points in general are shoddy and inconsistent. You call her money hungry but then point out actions that have zero financial benefit. And you’re attributing to her something that’s true of almost all walkers. They destabilize things by their actions, they change the status quo. If Kaya was replaced with almost any other walker nothing changes in those regards. And the rare times they aren’t causing change they’re usually responding to change caused by some other interplanar threat.


    To say nothing of the fact that Magic has jag plane shaping events for ages. That’s just how Magic is. I’m not sure when the last set was without major upheaval.


    In short you’re just doing what I said, singling out Kaya and being inconsistent while doing so.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from 5colors »
    Quote from Xeruh »
    A person with a highly specialized skill set tailor made to doing that using powers from an entire different plane of reality manages to kill them after launching an all out war on them with the help of people in the guild betraying them and people outside fighting.


    And while not said, in all likely hood Bolas was helping out in someway as well.



    Oh definitely. He put her up to it, if we can trust Bolas to be competent then I don’t see why someone serving as his right hand in that event is so implausible.


    Again, all the fixation on Kaya just makes it seem like somehow Kaya is uniquely bad, at which point when the bulk of the Planeswalker cast does ridiculous things you have to ask what about Kaya in particular is different. Which leaves a couple really obvious ones and... not much else to hear her critics say anything. There isn’t anything wrong with Kaya being the face as opposed to anyone else.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Quote from Xeruh »
    In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.


    Yeah, how dare those millennias-old creatures be more powerful than some 20-years-old walker who was just born with a special power because the plot said so?


    Something tells me you must not like almost any form of fiction, as “guy more powerful than protagonist still loses” is hardly original to Magic, nor is “protagonist has a unique power”.

    It also, again, wasn’t a solo effort. If the only person who can fight the Obzedat are two other people on Ravnica that’s a pretty silly setup.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    A person with a highly specialized skill set tailor made to doing that using powers from an entire different plane of reality manages to kill them after launching an all out war on them with the help of people in the guild betraying them and people outside fighting.


    Seriously, if you think that some things should be utterly unstoppable and nothing can handle them you’re just setting up a bunch of stagnant planes. Nothing can change because the godhead hasn’t decided it can yet, hope and pray it does something.


    In general just can’t agree with that stance. If what happened with the Obzedat is too easy then you really are just setting it up so Legendary creatures are infinitely more powerful than Walkers, which is absurd.


    And you sure are acting like it’s a Kaya specific issue, only changing your tune when called out. Just saying that you’re acting like Kaya is somehow worse than the rest.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    Er, capitalism doesn’t hold exclusivity of transactions as its own special thing. She’s also an assassin, which tend to earn a lot of money. But she’s clearly not driven by acquiring greater wealth and living off of others labor as a motivation. While I don’t recall it happening given her introduction my impression is she charges what she feels like the client can afford. It just so happens both times she was heading after very high end people with a serious financier behind the request. If anything the fact they seem to be fair trades kind of takes her out of the running for that too.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kaldheim packaging
    I’m... kind of confused how Kaya is a “capitalist”, if anything my reading of her is she’s driven by much more personal stakes than how much money she can get. If that was all she wanted she would just accept being the leader of the Orzhov and not really care about keeping the ghosts as slaves.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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