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  • posted a message on The reason for no cycles of trilands
    Just because they can make things doesn't mean they're just going to stick them random places. As said there haven't been any good sets for trilands. In general the game is built around mono/bicolor, not tri. And something like trilands aren't going to be done as one offs really often either.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    1. Pop culture isn't about right or wrong. If pop culture thinks that kraken are a Greek thing then pop culture thinks they're a Greek thing. The point is not that pop culture is right about how similar Greece and Rome are, but that they consider them to be, at best, two sides of the same coin. Not something as different as... I don't know, Greek and Norse mythology or the like.

    2. Because planes in Magic are now being built primarily around pop culture I don't think that the pop culture take of Rome has enough to stand on its own legs. This, again, is because in pop culture the two overlap very heavily, and the areas they don't overlap are not enough, again in my opinion, to make an interesting set.

    3. Ravnica is not a set inspired by Rome. You could argue it is a set that looks like Rome and that is much more subjective, but it is not a top down Rome set, there isn't any room for debate on that matter unless you are going to cite Maro saying otherwise. The story for it goes that they started with mechanics, ten two color pairs, and then the Creative team came back with the idea of Guilds and went from there.

    4. Regardless of how similar you thin Ravnica is to a top down Rome set, the question is not whether you think it is. You are far, far, far, far from general pop culture understanding of Rome, you're not even in the ballpark. So the important question then is does the layperson, the not a student of Classics, think Ravnica is a top down Rome set. And I would be willing to say with confidence that the majority would not think it is. If you have to point to specific things and say "these are things of Rome", then you've failed at the pop culture aspect. You don't need to point at mummies in Amonkhet for people to get it's Egyptian.

    5. I didn't once say that mythology was needed for a Rome set. What I said is that outside of mythology the only things of note from a pop culture standpoint are gladiators and empires. Your examples only emphasize that point, not detract from it.

    6. None of this is to say that WotC can't do a Rome set. But as I said I don't think that it stands on its own, as a whole plane ala Theros, very well from a pop culture standpoint. Because again, the pop culture understanding is fairly shallow and Wizards doesn't want to do anything too deep.

    7. If Maro does not say that Ravnica is inspired by Rome then it's not, barring someone from Creative (or higher than Maro I suppose) contradicting him. We can explicitly say that Ravnica is not a top down Rome set though, so regardless of how much of a duck you think it is Ravnica is not a duck. It's also pretty disingenuous to call it a duck when it's more a series of traits that ducks have that other animals can have as well.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    I'm... really confused. You think that Ravnica, explicitly a bottom up plane not built to emulate Rome, somehow means that they're acknowledging the differences of Greece and Rome in a meaningful sense? When in terms of cultural influences the only thing it really has directly is Slavic? If you want to claim they built Ravnica to be a Rome plane feel free, but unless you're going to actually cite where WotC did that at best you're arguing something to the effect of subconscious influences which is very wishy washy territory.

    And I'm not really sure why referencing Gladiators/Spartacus somehow invalidates my "Empire/Gladiator" bit with regards to pop culture.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    You're really only making my case as most people probably wouldn't view Ravnica as very Rome-like, and most of your examples are probably not very heavily noticed in pop culture. *shrugs* I'm also not sure why mentioning it changes what is being discussed, as Ravnica predates Theros, and this long chain sparked because I said I think it was unwise of them to split Theros into Greek only. Ravnica is clearly not a Rome inspired plane so it doesn't really change things.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Saying "gladiators and empires" is not casting it in a minor feature of public consciousness, it is saying it is one of two things. And I don't think either of those are enough to stand on their own. Empire and Gladiator World isn't exactly a very exciting sounding plane to me.

    And I'm kind of confused why you're acting like pop culture being mostly products of American things ignores the point I'm making. Nor am I saying that how America approaches things is good. But both of those are irrelevant.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    I feel like calling a "pop culture movement" indicates there is some sort of focused effort to do so when it's merely the result of what looking at something very shallowly will end up with. Much as one may, for instance, look at Japan and come to the conclusion all there is are ninja and samurai. These are both false, but an example to show more than the latter for Japan was met with incredible resistance. You can also see it in Eldraine where they knowingly avoided going too deep into Arthurian lore because the bulk of the audience to them wouldn't understand it. Amonkhet? Again, mostly a very shallow kind of thing. If you are only doing a shallow look at Rome, especially if it's a mythologically oriented set, then it's not going to stand out near enough from Theros.

    And you're kind of showing your own bias with regards to your studies, as well as using an American history based thing which people get a lot more heavily schooled in typically than the nuances of Greece vs Rome, if they even touch on the subject. Beyond gladiators and empires I doubt there is much people do know about Rome from a pop culture subject.

    As for whether or not they will do a Rome plane they seem interested in it. I just think they're going to have to add in other elements, and it'll probably be a bottom up set that gets a Rome theme tossed on as opposed to a top-down Rome set. Note that this isn't about whether or not an in depth look at two different cultures has enough for them to stand on their own, that question is fairly obvious. It's what happens when you look at a very shallow, pop culture focused view on a subject that I'm talking about.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    I'm more confused by what exact aspects you think they're bringing to a Roman Plane that will 1. Carry it as a plane solely on its own, and 2. Not be too obscure. Bearing in mind that from a mythological standpoint the only thing that is likely to get past the pop culture threshold is the founding of Rome, which isn't really offering much, leaving real life history as a basis which is not something I expect to be any better. Picking two random movies as though that's a summary of what pop culture is relative to those two subjects just shows you're being fairly disingenuous in your argument. And completely ignoring that Greco-Roman are tied much more closely together than you're willing to accept.

    In terms of pop culture I can think of that shows them off as two sides of the same coin? Percy Jackson. Yes, they're different, but they're still much more intimately tied together than the other mythologies tackled. And I think that at the end of the day that's going to hurt any solo Rome plane.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Perhaps this time around people can refrain from using the incorrect term "Greco-Roman" to describe a plane that is expressly not influenced by Rome.


    It won't happen until we get a real roman plane (like the home of Licia, sanguine tribune)


    I still think that decision not to have it be Greek and Rome is kind of silly. While I can see a Rome world being different from Greek world I feel they'd simply overlap a bit too much without some other major draw.


    Please no more this.

    MaRo (and most other content creators) are already presuming that most of their audiences are idiots. Please dont encourage them.

    Greece and Rome are nothing alike, except one day a bunch of militant rapists decided that they might need some cultural values if their cartel was going to last more than a generation or three after achieving a comfortable amount of assets, so they went and conquered a country which had some and took that too.


    This is the same company that thinks Kamigawa is bad because it wasn't anime enough. When you reduce things to that standard I don't expect much from a Rome plane that would stand on its own relative to a Greek plane, because from a pop culture standpoint the two are similar enough. That there are many people asking for it makes the public perception of Greece relative to Rome pretty obvious.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Perhaps this time around people can refrain from using the incorrect term "Greco-Roman" to describe a plane that is expressly not influenced by Rome.


    It won't happen until we get a real roman plane (like the home of Licia, sanguine tribune)


    I still think that decision not to have it be Greek and Rome is kind of silly. While I can see a Rome world being different from Greek world I feel they'd simply overlap a bit too much without some other major draw.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    I mean, unless she turns into a zombie there isn't any reason to expect her to be White/Black. And if she turns into a zombie she's not a walker anymore.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Wizards really does like to waste plot threads don't they?
    I mean, Gatewatch is still the story. And I don't think that it's as bad as people make it out to be, given that prior to the Gatewatch being a thing there was still basically what we had with them, just not really tied together.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Wizards really does like to waste plot threads don't they?
    Honestly not sure it was a very interesting plot line anyways so glad it’s over. I’d rather they hastily wrap up plots than expand on unappealing ones.
    Posted in: Magic Storyline
  • posted a message on Oko, Thief of Crowns
    Given that isn’t really a theme Magic would do that’s fine. And it’s possible he isn’t meant to really be a Shakespeare reference. Trickster fairy is... pretty much standard fairy.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Final few cards before the rest tommorrow
    I'm... kind of confused why Malevolent Noble is... malevolent. Honestly sounds like a pretty nice guy unless I'm supposed to believe that the fresh children bones are sincere.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue
    Her skin color is what I'm referring to in that context, not her existence as a character at all. And as I said if you read the novel it goes into her as a character reasonably enough. Treating her like a minority and like a weird special case because she's black though is just putting more emphasis on something that they're trying to treat as normal. It's much like they didn't make Alesha flying a trans flag and in pale pink, light blue, and white clothes despite leading the Mardu, or any number of other examples where they're trying to show diverse people as normal. Making it a question that has to be answered is undermining that entirely.

    As I said, if you want to say they should have added more PoC in background cases that's something else. But that doesn't mean that Linden is an anomaly for Eldraine itself.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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