I really doubt Edgar can beat an Anafenza, Tymna-Kondo or Doran built for the post-Eminence metagame. Vampires don't have any trick up their sleeve, it's either the 41 creatures balls to the wall list that can't beat an X/4 with Jitte, or the 30-35 creatures list that has added reach vs Junk but crumbles vs proactive control. Vampires are not quality creatures and the longer the game goes the worst they topdeck.
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
Huge competitively-costed asses that can fight back, Cataclysm, Balance, Jitte, Tangle Wire, Winter Orb...
The Abzan decks I've been testing with have pretty much everything you don't want to see as a swarm aggro, none of the best vampires being larger than X/3 doesn't help them survive combat with Anafenza/Doran/Rhino/Courser/etc. either. I'm not sure more anthems would help since Abrupt Decay hits all the good ones.
ack. you have a point there. less creatures more utility would fix this matchup i'm sure. does reducing the vamps affect the control matchup that badly? i really feel like the strongest control deck right now is thrasios/kraum, have you tested against it?
I really doubt Edgar can beat an Anafenza, Tymna-Kondo or Doran built for the post-Eminence metagame. Vampires don't have any trick up their sleeve, it's either the 41 creatures balls to the wall list that can't beat an X/4 with Jitte, or the 30-35 creatures list that has added reach vs Junk but crumbles vs proactive control. Vampires are not quality creatures and the longer the game goes the worst they topdeck.
I've been beating my own Edgar list from page 5 3-10, and a 41 creatures list from a friend 1-10 with my retired 30lp Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief list and I haven't even updated it with Engineered Plague, Bontu's Last Reckoning, etc. Problem is that deck doesn't beat Zurgo or Titania. (It does beat Baral, Gitrog and Karlov tho).
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
Sounds about right. Too fast for slow u/x decks to keep up with, but not fast enough for true aggro. Arahbo is a hybrid aggro; i.e. a true midrange deck, that can "combo" with cards a la Berserk.
ok just as i initially thought, the eminence commander in question for a ban would really only be edgar..
I was actually editing this exact same thing into my reply to you, well minus the specific cards since i'm not totally familiar with all the pieces. But yes one of the main reasons I have for my 25 life argument is actually to buff combo decks. I never really expected representation to completely even out three ways no matter what changes are made due to the variable nature of combo, but helping that archetype could balance out the aggro a bit.
interesting! is this consistent enough to set up though?
I will hype u a litle: discard Wanderwine Prophets, reanimate it, pay {1} to copy it, exile the non token to the token, attack, sac the token, pay {1} to make another token, pass make a new token and just enjoy your turns
i'd love to see this in action. the day combo decks become consistently viable in tournament play at 20 life is the day i shut up about 25
i've been saying for quite a while that partner tax was more of a problem than individual partner pieces ever were.. but for eminence i have no idea how they'd nerf it to be 20 life playable... as time goes by, the number of busted commanders at 20 life seems to be catching up to the ones that were a menace at 30.
25 life is looking better and better now coz combo will be able to survive long enough to end eminence commanders without immediately dying, control will have a reasonable cushion to survive aggro and shut down combo, and aggro will still have enough reach..
I know that you're trying to find a solution to the problem, but throwing around the '25 life' mantra is getting a bit annoying. My question is: did you test your 25 life format? Di you practice with all the tier decks, including currently banned generals, to see if the format would change? Are you sure that your change would bring more combo decks to the table or are you just talking out of some wishful thinking?
Edgar is not a problem because we play at 20 life. He would be a problem even in a 30 life format, because he gives the player an emblem that can't be interacted with and that generates tons of advantage. That is not an issue of life points, the card is basically perverting the idea of playing commander by giving you a free effect without ever needing to move your commander from the command zone. That's why it should be banned.
Actually I have done preliminary testing right after the marath ban I admit that was long ago, and after the 20 life announcement was made I kinda dropped the project altogether. The decks i recall used were kaalia, bellstriker, titania, geist, jenara, GAAIV, anafenza, animar, teferi/babyjace and i believe keranos, though i think no MonoB Sidisi coz we dint bother after the ooze ban (in retrospect we should have included it).. But based on that preliminary testing, aggro was viable, combo could not afford to just sit back, absorb damage and win (but does not get beaten up by hyperaggro decks unlike in 20), while control was within reach of aggro. However in light of partners and eminence, i'm not sure exactly how accurate my initial assessment will still be. But answering another one of your questions, yes based on my initial testing, the extra 5 life allowed combo to function much better than it does in 20 right now, and that to me is key in keeping many aggro decks in check and by extension, keeping them legal and playable. Also, though I do agree that Edgar and eminence is a problem and perverts the idea of commander to an extent, I don't think he will be as big a problem if life totals were slightly increased. If combo decks can consistently survive zurgo and to a certain extent maintain that rock-paper-scissors of aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro, then edgar and by extension bruse won't have to be banned.
I get what you're saying that the idea that 25 life solves all of 20 and 30 life formats is wishful thinking and based on nothing but a pipe dream.. But the fact is we have seen firsthand the problems that both 20 and 30 life has brought in terms of restricting which decks can compete at a high level (hence the bans). Though it's wrong to put 25 life on a pedestal without wide-scale testing, it's just as wrong to simply dismiss it as just a product of wishful thinking.
If the format was 40 life there wouldn't be any reason to play anything but Grixis combos. And 30lp haven't had that much better luck with bans.
There has to be a way for Bruse, Geist, Tasigur, Marath and maybe even Breya to be unbannable. Maybe modify the Commander Tax rules for Partners/Delve and ban Steel of the Godhead, Mana Echoes and Academy Ruins instead.
Otherwise we'll never have a real format. Before Edgar and Arhabo infused some interest in my local scene, it was 8 people playing Karlov, Titania, Zurgo and Baral every week with more chore-like contempt than interest.
i've been saying for quite a while that partner tax was more of a problem than individual partner pieces ever were.. but for eminence i have no idea how they'd nerf it to be 20 life playable... as time goes by, the number of busted commanders at 20 life seems to be catching up to the ones that were a menace at 30.
25 life is looking better and better now coz combo will be able to survive long enough to end eminence commanders without immediately dying, control will have a reasonable cushion to survive aggro and shut down combo, and aggro will still have enough reach..
if bruse stayed legal it would have turned into a partners vs eminence meta which could be a problem of its own.. i'm really anxious to see the next announcement.
cut the 5 drops, cut gamble, cut final fortune add in monastery swiftspear and moar burn spells, play spellshock,
I've never been a fan of Swiftspear. I don't get they hype. G-Guide he is not haha.
Really? Spellshock?! That was when we had the 30 life format, it's a bit slow for 20 right?
nope. spellshock does more work against midrangey stuff like titania, punishes big spells and is therefore less likely to backfire on us than pyroP. the extra 1 mana cost is worth it based on testing. i also found it too much to play both pyrostatic and eidolon.
i mentioned swifty coz i think the guy mentioned not having gob guide budget. that aside though, a single prowess trigger already makes her better than guide coz extra toughness aside, she doesn't help opponents make land drops. guide is still overall better of course. swifty is just a more than adequate sub. i'll probably find room to play both.
Tas got his ars handed to him during testing when we still used to play with 20 life around here. I think he would make waves but not warp the format like he used to do
Played more with friends, I love this guy.
Titania, Doran and Queen Marchesa can fend him off. Tymna-Kondo, Karlov, Zurgo and Animar have fair chances of winning. Everyone else needs to pray to RNGesus that you'll draw nothing but lands.
I'm starting to think the last bans were a mistake. Maybe we didn't need to ban Geist, Breya and Bruse, maybe we needed to unban Tasigur, Marath and Necrotic Ooze.
tasigur was a nightmare to me from a mardu standpoint, though that was back in 30. what exactly makes you think he's better now?
i agree with unbanning ooze and marath tho. not too sure abt breya staying legal, but geist and bruse seemed ok to me.
I think "Eminence" mechanic is still worse than "Partners".
I know that Eminence is like an emblem of a planeswalker and it's really strong but we're talking about a possible ban when Partners are still legal.
by worse do you mean less powerful or more degenerate?
i think he means partner is posing a bigger problem than eminence could possibly cause on release.
i guess it depends on which eminence ability is being compared to which partner pairing. i really believe shared tax was more warranted than banning bruse. he was really more of a menace when paired with another aggressive color with ramp like green and a partner that curved perfectly into him like reyhan or a guaranteed early threat like akiri. overall partner tax rules should be given a second look. a compromise i can think of is paying extra 1 for each partner death instead of 2, but that feels like a nightmare to keep track of.
overall though, eminence to me is a bigger threat to the format because even though partner commanders are generally more resilient and difficult to lock out via tax than solo commanders, they are still creatures that can be interacted with in various ways. eminence is just there the whole game, start to finish. i mean short of playing engineered plague (offset by a single anthem btw), i dunno how else to adjust to vampballing.
why not play both?
ack. you have a point there. less creatures more utility would fix this matchup i'm sure. does reducing the vamps affect the control matchup that badly? i really feel like the strongest control deck right now is thrasios/kraum, have you tested against it?
abzan still exists in my local meta, and doran/anafenza (more of doran coz he turns ball lightnings into 1/1's) stands up to zurgo pretty well thanks to bigger midrange threats, and access to siege rhino, kitchen finks and thragtusk..
though why does edgar lose to abzan exactly? would adding a few more anthems help?
ok just as i initially thought, the eminence commander in question for a ban would really only be edgar..
I was actually editing this exact same thing into my reply to you, well minus the specific cards since i'm not totally familiar with all the pieces. But yes one of the main reasons I have for my 25 life argument is actually to buff combo decks. I never really expected representation to completely even out three ways no matter what changes are made due to the variable nature of combo, but helping that archetype could balance out the aggro a bit.
has anyone tested arahbo extensively yet?
i'd love to see this in action. the day combo decks become consistently viable in tournament play at 20 life is the day i shut up about 25
Actually I have done preliminary testing right after the marath ban
I get what you're saying that the idea that 25 life solves all of 20 and 30 life formats is wishful thinking and based on nothing but a pipe dream.. But the fact is we have seen firsthand the problems that both 20 and 30 life has brought in terms of restricting which decks can compete at a high level (hence the bans). Though it's wrong to put 25 life on a pedestal without wide-scale testing, it's just as wrong to simply dismiss it as just a product of wishful thinking.
i've been saying for quite a while that partner tax was more of a problem than individual partner pieces ever were.. but for eminence i have no idea how they'd nerf it to be 20 life playable... as time goes by, the number of busted commanders at 20 life seems to be catching up to the ones that were a menace at 30.
25 life is looking better and better now coz combo will be able to survive long enough to end eminence commanders without immediately dying, control will have a reasonable cushion to survive aggro and shut down combo, and aggro will still have enough reach..
nope. spellshock does more work against midrangey stuff like titania, punishes big spells and is therefore less likely to backfire on us than pyroP. the extra 1 mana cost is worth it based on testing. i also found it too much to play both pyrostatic and eidolon.
i mentioned swifty coz i think the guy mentioned not having gob guide budget. that aside though, a single prowess trigger already makes her better than guide coz extra toughness aside, she doesn't help opponents make land drops. guide is still overall better of course. swifty is just a more than adequate sub. i'll probably find room to play both.
died to zurgo?
tasigur was a nightmare to me from a mardu standpoint, though that was back in 30. what exactly makes you think he's better now?
i agree with unbanning ooze and marath tho. not too sure abt breya staying legal, but geist and bruse seemed ok to me.
i think he means partner is posing a bigger problem than eminence could possibly cause on release.
i guess it depends on which eminence ability is being compared to which partner pairing. i really believe shared tax was more warranted than banning bruse. he was really more of a menace when paired with another aggressive color with ramp like green and a partner that curved perfectly into him like reyhan or a guaranteed early threat like akiri. overall partner tax rules should be given a second look. a compromise i can think of is paying extra 1 for each partner death instead of 2, but that feels like a nightmare to keep track of.
overall though, eminence to me is a bigger threat to the format because even though partner commanders are generally more resilient and difficult to lock out via tax than solo commanders, they are still creatures that can be interacted with in various ways. eminence is just there the whole game, start to finish. i mean short of playing engineered plague (offset by a single anthem btw), i dunno how else to adjust to vampballing.