I started theorycrafting with the list (I haven't got hold of the Phoenixes yet) as I think that Phoenix is a better fit than Rabblemaster. First off, I hate the 3 planeswalkers in the Arclight/ Reveler deck, so I cut them for a higher instant/sorcery count. Secondly, I wanted to include more 'free' spells to increase the synergy with all 3 of our creatures, so 2 mb surgical (not a bad meta call atm if you ask me) and 2 manamorphose (I know its bad against Thalia, but we have removal and a sideboard).
I'm going to carry out a dubious experiment at my LGS tonight with Mardu, instead of trying to increase the clock with Rabblemaster or Hazoret, I'm going to try doubling down on the grind with Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Wish me luck.
Kiln Fiend is just not good enough for Modern. Especially when the format's most popular deck runs Thalia (the taxing makes it hard to get effective buffs on the fiend and the first strike means she can always block it profitably.
I'm thinking about trying out a version of the list without moons and without mainboard planeswalkers, instead playing 2x Monastery Mentor and 2x Lightning Helix (in addition to the Brutalities).
A couple of reasons: I think Mentor fits our plan far better than Rabblemaster, who is essentially just a 3 drop dumb aggro creature. Mentor can build a profitable defensive board state and can also turn the screws quickly when required. Lightning Helix gives us more non creature reach to help us push through against stalled boards and keeps our life total healthy against humans/ burn/ bridgevine etc. Removing the moons from the equation opens up these useful white cards to the conversation.
In short, this deck needs to evolve with the times or it will quickly get left behind in the format. We no longer have the edge against humans that we once did and control has become a lot tougher since 4x Terminus became the standard. This deck has always struggled for pressure and I have been feeling that recently more than I have over the last year. Mentor and Helix may end up not being the answer, but I think that we collectively need to start getting more innovative.
ChampionSilvos. I challenge you to set a reminder to come back to this thread in three months time and try not to cringe at how far off the mark you are whilst jump start and surveil see tier 1 play in multiple formats.
There are definitely times when blood moon is not optimal in the meta and I have played Mardu without moons before. Based on the speed of the format at the moment, I can definitely see the benefit of removing the moons for cards that impact the board in a more meaningful way.
Bridge should be priority number one for sure, Vengevine second. It should be noted as well that most decks only run one basic mountain, so if you can stall long enough to land a blood moon, they can end up with a load of stitcher's suppliers and gravecrawlers in hand with nothing to do.
I have recently been playing Vengevine in addition to Mardu, and I have to say that a mix of Surgical, Spellbomb and Anger of the Gods is often more effective against the deck than leyline.
I have 4 Nature's Claim in the board for Leyline, but Surgical is a real beating.
Nice work on the primer FlyingDever! Though there is no entry for blood moon under the non-creature section, which seems like an important card to address.
Also in my mind, when you look at the top decks of the format, there is not really a deck BM is completely dead against at least, against affinity you can shut down manlands, against burn you can shut down white, against Hollow One/Mardu you can also shut them off white or black. Against KCI you can turn off Inventors Fair. So the downside of having BM main is not that low in my mind. At least not too low to not run BM maindeck due to the way higher upside.
I do want to point out, though, that against several of these decks (Affinity, Burn, and KCI especially) slamming a turn 3 blood moon can very much be a recipe for dying on turn 4. Yes it's a powerful card, but in matchups where we always need to hold up mana for removal (or tap out for removal as the case may be) blood moon loses a lot of its bite. I'd still keep it against KCI but I'm immediately cutting it every time againt burn - though that's also because of all the white cards I bring in that can't be cast under blood moon (Many more burn decks locally play Rest in Peace as their hate enchantment of choice over Stony Silence which warrants boarding in Wear//Tear. I also need white for Kambal.
Slamming blood moon turn 3 is almost always correct against burn. They tend to deploy their cheaper spells and creatures during the first two turns, so you have a good chance of stranding some number of Lightning Helix/ Boros Charm/ Atarka's Command in hand, which can really pump the breaks on their momentum. Worth noting that their only answer to moon (Destructive Revelry) cannot be cast under moon because they run no non-mountain basics.
There are lists of other people playing Lightning Helix besides Selfeisek but he's indeed the only one to do this since the beginning. It's definitely an interesting approach but I'm not sure how good it is. Lightning Helix definitely helps against more aggressive decks like Humans or Burn but it doesn't hit bigger threats and I'm more concerned with these.
Helix is in the slot that is normally taken up by Collective Brutality, which is even worse at dealing with big threats.
On balance, I think that Brutality is better due to a less prohibitive casting cost and the ability to remove threatening instants and sorceries, however in a situation where mana is not an issue against a creature based deck Helix is stronger.
OK, so I love Raph's Jund Hollow Vine list from TCGplayer, but there are a few things I plan to change about it for my own deck.
Firstly, I agree that the fastlands are less good here and I would much prefer to have 5c lands such as City, Confluence or gemstone.
Secondly, I think that Scourge Devil is a super loose include in the deck and doesn't really do enough to justify its mana cost (both front end and unearth). The deck has 12 creatures that can return a Amalgam more efficiently, so I think it is by far the worst card in the deck. The reason I am posting here is because I have multiple options to replace these 2 slots and I want to hear your thoughts. In no particular order, they are:
Ghor-Clan Rampager
Pros - Allows our larger creatures to punch through trample damage, can trade for a blocking Tarmogoyf and generally further supports the all in approach of the deck.
Cons - Bloodrush ability costing two mana does not support early Hollow One casts very well.
Dismember
Pros - Kills almost everything for one mana.
Cons - No other synergy with the deck.
Gurmag Angler
Pros - 1 mana 5/5...
Cons - most of the deck is made up of recursive creatures, would feel real bad to have to delve away Vengevines.
Cathartic Reunion
Pros - Discard outlet, draw machine, general gas.
Cons - One of the worst cards to play into a counterspell in the format.
Simean Spirit Guide
Pros - Helps cast early creatures/ chain creatures to trigger vengevine
Cons - Doesn't interact with anything and backup mode of a 3 mana 2/2 is laaaame.
The list I am referring to can be found here.
I started theorycrafting with the list (I haven't got hold of the Phoenixes yet) as I think that Phoenix is a better fit than Rabblemaster. First off, I hate the 3 planeswalkers in the Arclight/ Reveler deck, so I cut them for a higher instant/sorcery count. Secondly, I wanted to include more 'free' spells to increase the synergy with all 3 of our creatures, so 2 mb surgical (not a bad meta call atm if you ask me) and 2 manamorphose (I know its bad against Thalia, but we have removal and a sideboard).
Here is my working draft:
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Arclight Phoenix
4 Bedlam Reveler
Spells:30
4 Faithless Looting
2 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Dreadbore
2 Manamorphose
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Swamp
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
2 Stony Silence
2 Blood Moon
1 Experimental Frenzy
1 Languish
3 Leyline of the Void
Anybody here put in any reps with something like this? would be interested to hear opinions/ feedback.
A couple of reasons: I think Mentor fits our plan far better than Rabblemaster, who is essentially just a 3 drop dumb aggro creature. Mentor can build a profitable defensive board state and can also turn the screws quickly when required. Lightning Helix gives us more non creature reach to help us push through against stalled boards and keeps our life total healthy against humans/ burn/ bridgevine etc. Removing the moons from the equation opens up these useful white cards to the conversation.
In short, this deck needs to evolve with the times or it will quickly get left behind in the format. We no longer have the edge against humans that we once did and control has become a lot tougher since 4x Terminus became the standard. This deck has always struggled for pressure and I have been feeling that recently more than I have over the last year. Mentor and Helix may end up not being the answer, but I think that we collectively need to start getting more innovative.
I have 4 Nature's Claim in the board for Leyline, but Surgical is a real beating.
Also worth noting that it really hampers tron and is an easy switch for some of the dead removal in the deck.
Slamming blood moon turn 3 is almost always correct against burn. They tend to deploy their cheaper spells and creatures during the first two turns, so you have a good chance of stranding some number of Lightning Helix/ Boros Charm/ Atarka's Command in hand, which can really pump the breaks on their momentum. Worth noting that their only answer to moon (Destructive Revelry) cannot be cast under moon because they run no non-mountain basics.
Helix is in the slot that is normally taken up by Collective Brutality, which is even worse at dealing with big threats.
On balance, I think that Brutality is better due to a less prohibitive casting cost and the ability to remove threatening instants and sorceries, however in a situation where mana is not an issue against a creature based deck Helix is stronger.
Firstly, I agree that the fastlands are less good here and I would much prefer to have 5c lands such as City, Confluence or gemstone.
Secondly, I think that Scourge Devil is a super loose include in the deck and doesn't really do enough to justify its mana cost (both front end and unearth). The deck has 12 creatures that can return a Amalgam more efficiently, so I think it is by far the worst card in the deck. The reason I am posting here is because I have multiple options to replace these 2 slots and I want to hear your thoughts. In no particular order, they are:
Ghor-Clan Rampager
Pros - Allows our larger creatures to punch through trample damage, can trade for a blocking Tarmogoyf and generally further supports the all in approach of the deck.
Cons - Bloodrush ability costing two mana does not support early Hollow One casts very well.
Collective Brutality
Pros - Acts as a discard outlet, snipes out cards like Anger of the Gods/ Settle the Wreckage, all modes are generally useful.
Cons - -2/-2 only clears small blockers and not larger problem creatures.
Dismember
Pros - Kills almost everything for one mana.
Cons - No other synergy with the deck.
Gurmag Angler
Pros - 1 mana 5/5...
Cons - most of the deck is made up of recursive creatures, would feel real bad to have to delve away Vengevines.
Cathartic Reunion
Pros - Discard outlet, draw machine, general gas.
Cons - One of the worst cards to play into a counterspell in the format.
Simean Spirit Guide
Pros - Helps cast early creatures/ chain creatures to trigger vengevine
Cons - Doesn't interact with anything and backup mode of a 3 mana 2/2 is laaaame.
What do you guys think?