Is Worm Harvest even good as a finisher? I've never tried it because it looked slow and inconsistent.
Usually when I win, I've only got like 3-5 Lands in the Grave, and generally just recycle the same 3 with Loam ad infinitum, so I doubt getting 3 1/1s for 5 Mana is all that good all things considered.. :S
As for 4-Colour, I think that stretches the Mana too thin. Remember, this is a Deck that wants to get RRR a reasonable amount of the time, and that's hard enough as it as with 3 Colours..
@Sheriff, I've been runnning 4 of Commune and Loam and while I keep wanting a slot or two for other things, the deck has been operating pretty smoothly with 4-of both so don't fix what ain't broken is where I'm at. Running into multiples has been fine because we're often fighting through grave hate post board and we often get 1 or 2 Loams exiled by this or that. Being able to find a replacement in a timely manner has been critical many times for me.
Wouldn't Birds be better than Hierarch to make red for Assault? Also, how has Horizon Canopy been for you? Been thinking about getting one but not sure how worth it it would be.
I've only ever played a handful of games with Modern Loam Decks, but I've never come across a situation where a Loam was Exiled from the Grave and needed a replacement. Though I have had many games where I thought having 4 Loams was too much, since I only ever needed 1 in the Grave, getting the extras was pointless.. And now, if we're adding Commune into the mix, I'm not so sure.. But yeah, having a backup for when you get Relic'd isn't bad, and relying on Commune makes you a Turn slower, so it's a toss up. I haven't tested much with Commune yet, so not sure where I stand.
As for Birds, yeah, I definitely considered them, or some mix of Birds/Hierarchs, but getting the Red isn't that big of a problem, I thought that potentially getting an Exalted Trigger off a Knight or Mentor might be worth it. Granted I don't have Hierarchs in Paper, so it may just be a moot point, I just wanted to test with Hierarchs.. :S
As for Horizon Canopy, I like it. Since we don't have Tranquil Thicket in Modern, it is the next best thing. An extra White Source, and potential Card Draw/Advantage, I don't see why not.
As for Flame Jab, yeah with less Delver it's not as good, but it can still ping unflipped Delvers, Mana Dorks, and Tokens, granted there are less of them now. And Flame Jab does become obsolete once you've got your Seismic Assault online.. But I think having 1 or 2 wouldn't hurt, just in case.
If only you could cram Raven's Crime and Monastery Mentor into the same Deck.. :S
I'm considering dropping Loam to 3, and bumping Commune to 3, is the 4th Loam really necessary if we've got Commune?
A lot of my Sideboard has redundancy, either in the form of Flashback or Commune being able to find them. Not entirely sure on Engineered Explosives, but it's kind of a pet Sideboard Card of mine..
Leyline is tempting, but not sure what, aside from Kor Firewalker, I'd cut for it... And it's also good vs Thoughtseize/Inquisition, not that we are afraid of Discard.. Although Firewalker is harder for Burn to get past it, since they almost always run Wear//Tear for Leyline.
Also not sure on if 2x Tec Edge 1x Ghost is the right option, or 2x Ghost 1x Tec Edge.. :S
PS. How can I get the Decklist to put the Lands in the middle?
With Cruise/DTT and Pod out of the picture, it really is time for Attrition-based strategies to shine!
Assault Loam will definitely make a comeback. If anything, it'll be playable again along with Jund and other Hand hate or similar strategies, without Cruise being in the Meta.
I've always liked the Jund Smallpox, Abrupt Decay, Raven's Crime, Bloodghast variant, but Naya is looking interesting too...
I really like zgeordo's Unburial Rites Creature heavy take.
I'm not too sure on Commune, but being able to filter and find Sideboard Cards, or Creatures/Assault, seems like it may be useful. And if you're running Commune, is 4x Loam really necessary?
As any aspiring Planeswalker, I have lofty dreams of resolving the infamous Earthcraft+Squirrel Nest combo, and so I am Brainstorming to come up with a way to make it somewhat competitively viable in Vintage (though it'd be a Casual Deck at heart.)
At first, I started with the concept that, in Vintage, every Deck must have Blue in it (not to mention UG are my two favorite Colours, nothing like Drafting a Mystic Snake and/or Trygon Predator in Cube.. I <3 those Cards!) And then I was trying to decide between B or W, mostly for Tutors since Mystical Tutor just doesn't cut it for Enchantments, but I think the existence of Sterling Grove steered me more towards White (though Black does have Pernicious Deed... Tough choice.)
Though I feel Blue allows you to stall longer until you get your Combo up, and protect it easier. Which is important, since unlike most Decks this one wouldn't have a 1-Card Win-Con (ie, Tinker.)
I honestly think Lightning Bolt is overkill vs Delver Decks. Nothing has 3 Toughness.
Forked Bolt is amazing. Electrickery may even have some use. Volcanic Fallout is awesome. Is Gut Shot bad? (I think spending 2 Life to snip an unflipped Delver, or a Pyromancer when they least expect it should be good..)
Soul Sisters, namely Auriok Champion does WORK (better than Firewalker imo.) And can Sideboard Rest in Peace to shut off Cruise and Snapcaster.
Jotun Grunt is also interesting Tech, effectively a 4/4 you can swing with a couple of times that shuts off Cruise.
Spirit of the Labyrinth is also a cute Hatebear; prevents Cantrips and Cruises, keeps people honest (only Draw once, and from the Draw Step. :P)
Chalice, if it can Resolve, is pretty dirty. Just gotta be a Deck that doesn't need, and/or rely on, their 1-Drops (if you have any.)
Assuming we *will* play a SfT next turn (for example), S.V. gives you the top card "at random" and lets you choose between card two, three and random to draw for the next turn.
Uhm, what? If Search is imminent Serum doesn't do anything for you in regards to the next Turn's Draw..
There are times when you need to use a Card right away, and Sleight is better than Serum in that regard. Sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting until you can Draw what you Scry'd, even if there aren't any impending Shuffle Effects.
I don't know, I've always sworn by Serum but I'm beginning to change my mind towards Sleight now to be honest...
I think upping the Izzet Charm and Electrolyze count, instead of adding Lightning Bolts, is the way to go. (Forked Bolts instead of Meta is REALLY Delver/Pyro heavy.) More versatile, less dead in certain Match-ups, Cantrip/Looting(Delve fuel.)
Stupid thought: Gitaxian Probe? (Instead of Telling Time/Peer most likely..) o_0 I know, crazy.
I really like Halimar Depths (I see some people run a Temple of Mystery or an extra Fetch instead), anyone else have any opinions on it?
I'm kind of in ostrich mode as far as the current meta goes (ie. I'm sticking my head in the ground until January, when Cruise is hopefully banned), because we could change our Scapeshift lists to combat this Cruise Meta, only to have it be reverted back 2 months later.. I don't think it's worth it.
One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around, and this may be because I'm a noob, but when, exactly, does one use Counterflux? Or rather, is Counterflux used for it's uncounterability or the Overload? Because I can't think of a situation where one would Overload a Counterflux..
Is a 3rd Forest a must, because of STE's and Searches? Or could I run an extra Fetch and 2 Forests? (Fetches seem better, with the Dig Through Times..)
What about Forked Bolt instead of Lightning Bolt if the field has so many Delvers and Pyromancers? It also hits Snapcaster bodies.. And worst case it's 2 to enemy face to drop them to 18.
I think the Damage of Lightning Bolt is just wasted against the main Targets of Delver, Pyromancer, Tokens, etc.. Forked and Izzet Charm and Electrolyze, even Electrickery/Pyroclasm, do a better job of getting rid of those guys and not wasting all of that Damage on 1 Target.. I'd up the count on Charm and Electrolyze before I touched Bolts personally.. :S
Yeah, I've changed my mind, I think FRF will probably only have 3 or so Non-Basic Lands probably with a Colourless/Morph theme. (Would Zoetic Cavern be a possibility, or is that name-locked elsewhere?)
And then DTK (Louie, Dragons of Tarkir) will maybe just have the Allied Pain Lands? (Since it'll probably be an Ally Coloured Set, with Ally Coloured Dragons.) Though I was expecting M16 to have the Ally Pain Lands. But unlike most people I do not think KTK Block will have ZEN Fetches.. at all.(I wish they would, but I doubt it.)
Any ideas on who the green Legendary could be? The spoiled cards so far lean towards tribal, and probably Elf.
I've been hoping for Glissa all this time, maybe it may come true? ^.^
PS. Anyone else worried about how a Planeswalker Commander would even work out? Unlike normal Commanders, these would have a much easier Target on their heads, and get attacked right away. Granted building Board States in Commander, especially Multiplayer, may take some time.. But these "Commanders" are extremely vulnerable, and would rarely hit their Ultimates.. :S
In what world do you live?
It is practically stated that Fate Reforged is allied focused with the mention of a UB dragon recently in Arcana:
Quote from "Mike McArtor, Arcana,10/20/2014" »
We see just a hint of a UB dragon's silhouette emerging from a storm in the surface of the water.
There is no confirmation that that Dragon is from FRF, it could very well be from Louie. If anything, I think Louie would be Ally-Coloured, and FRF Mono+ColourlessMatters. So in that regard, yes, Enemy Fast Lands wouldn't match, but they don't have to. Pain Lands were added into M15 to make Standard Constructed better, and that is also a half "Cycle."
Plus the fact that wizards practically stated that each block will have the full 10 lands of its cycle from now on:
Quote from "Sam Stoddard, Latest Development,06/26/2014" »
I mentioned last year that we were moving more toward printing full cycles of lands in a block to make the mana work for Constructed and for Block Constructed. That isn't changing.
Also it is worth noticing that FRF is a small set and therefore should have fewer lands. For symmetry and the new block system to work well I actually expect all remaining dual lands to be printed in 'Louie', FRF only having one or two non-dual rare lands.
They said that they wouldn't split Land Cycles; Enemy Duals and Ally Duals are two separate "Cycles."
It's not just about Rares, I recall MaRo saying that they chose like 60%(?), or some number, of Rares they didn't think they'd ever [need/want to] reprint, for Lore purposes, and put those on the List.
I believe the way he described it was, that they had a certain % of Cards they could choose to "save", if they thought it had potential to be reprinted elsewhere Lore-wise.
(I just wish Rishadan Port, Gaea's Cradle, and Hazezon Tamar weren't on that list, or had gotten a Modern Border Judge Promo before the last loophole was closed... :S)
Based on deduction, it is safe to say that Fate Reforged will likely be an Enemey-Colour focused Set*. What better place to print the Enemy Fast Lands that we are sorely missing out on?
*FRF Drafts with both KTK and Louie, and KTK is the only "Wedge" Set, so FRF needs to be able to Draft with a Wedge Set, and a non-Wedge Set. FRF cannot be an Allied Colour Set, because that wouldn't Draft well with KTK, especially because of the pushing of Drafting into Enemy Colours. So that leaves either Mono-Coloured, or Enemy-Coloured, and I doubt Louie will be Shard-Coloured (what with lack of design space, and the fact that they've already done one recently) so that leaves it being Ally-Coloured. And what's the only thing that'd Draft with both of those? Mono-Coloured (probably with some Colourless stuff thrown in as well.)
What do you guys think? How awesome would it be if we got Enemy Fast Lands, and how likely do you think that'd be? What would that mean for Modern, having these Lands?
Usually when I win, I've only got like 3-5 Lands in the Grave, and generally just recycle the same 3 with Loam ad infinitum, so I doubt getting 3 1/1s for 5 Mana is all that good all things considered.. :S
As for 4-Colour, I think that stretches the Mana too thin. Remember, this is a Deck that wants to get RRR a reasonable amount of the time, and that's hard enough as it as with 3 Colours..
I've only ever played a handful of games with Modern Loam Decks, but I've never come across a situation where a Loam was Exiled from the Grave and needed a replacement. Though I have had many games where I thought having 4 Loams was too much, since I only ever needed 1 in the Grave, getting the extras was pointless.. And now, if we're adding Commune into the mix, I'm not so sure.. But yeah, having a backup for when you get Relic'd isn't bad, and relying on Commune makes you a Turn slower, so it's a toss up. I haven't tested much with Commune yet, so not sure where I stand.
As for Birds, yeah, I definitely considered them, or some mix of Birds/Hierarchs, but getting the Red isn't that big of a problem, I thought that potentially getting an Exalted Trigger off a Knight or Mentor might be worth it. Granted I don't have Hierarchs in Paper, so it may just be a moot point, I just wanted to test with Hierarchs.. :S
As for Horizon Canopy, I like it. Since we don't have Tranquil Thicket in Modern, it is the next best thing. An extra White Source, and potential Card Draw/Advantage, I don't see why not.
As for Flame Jab, yeah with less Delver it's not as good, but it can still ping unflipped Delvers, Mana Dorks, and Tokens, granted there are less of them now. And Flame Jab does become obsolete once you've got your Seismic Assault online.. But I think having 1 or 2 wouldn't hurt, just in case.
If only you could cram Raven's Crime and Monastery Mentor into the same Deck.. :S
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Enchantments: 4
4 Seismic Assault
Sorceries: 13
3 Life From the Loam
3 Commune With the Gods
3 Faithless Looting
2 Flame Jab
2 Pyroclasm
Instants: 6
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
Lands: 25
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Fire-lit Thicket
1 Rugged Prairie
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Stony Silence
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Combust
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Molten Rain
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Blood Moon
1 Choke
1 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
I'm considering dropping Loam to 3, and bumping Commune to 3, is the 4th Loam really necessary if we've got Commune?
A lot of my Sideboard has redundancy, either in the form of Flashback or Commune being able to find them. Not entirely sure on Engineered Explosives, but it's kind of a pet Sideboard Card of mine..
Leyline is tempting, but not sure what, aside from Kor Firewalker, I'd cut for it... And it's also good vs Thoughtseize/Inquisition, not that we are afraid of Discard.. Although Firewalker is harder for Burn to get past it, since they almost always run Wear//Tear for Leyline.
Also not sure on if 2x Tec Edge 1x Ghost is the right option, or 2x Ghost 1x Tec Edge.. :S
PS. How can I get the Decklist to put the Lands in the middle?
Assault Loam will definitely make a comeback. If anything, it'll be playable again along with Jund and other Hand hate or similar strategies, without Cruise being in the Meta.
I've always liked the Jund Smallpox, Abrupt Decay, Raven's Crime, Bloodghast variant, but Naya is looking interesting too...
I really like zgeordo's Unburial Rites Creature heavy take.
I'm not too sure on Commune, but being able to filter and find Sideboard Cards, or Creatures/Assault, seems like it may be useful. And if you're running Commune, is 4x Loam really necessary?
At first, I started with the concept that, in Vintage, every Deck must have Blue in it (not to mention UG are my two favorite Colours, nothing like Drafting a Mystic Snake and/or Trygon Predator in Cube.. I <3 those Cards!) And then I was trying to decide between B or W, mostly for Tutors since Mystical Tutor just doesn't cut it for Enchantments, but I think the existence of Sterling Grove steered me more towards White (though Black does have Pernicious Deed... Tough choice.)
Blue does allow for the use of Gushbond, which is always fun, as well as Time Walk and Ancestral Recall and a slew of Counterspells, but would it be better to potentially go Junk Colours instead? Gaddock Teeg, Pernicious Deed, Chancellor of the Annex, Abrupt Decay, and going heavier on the Enchantress theme is also an option..
Though I feel Blue allows you to stall longer until you get your Combo up, and protect it easier. Which is important, since unlike most Decks this one wouldn't have a 1-Card Win-Con (ie, Tinker.)
So far the Deck looks something like this:
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Fastbond
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
4x Daze
4x Gush
4x Enlightened Tutor
3x Mental Misstep
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Flusterstorm
1x Snapcaster Mage
3x Sterling Grove
3x Squirrel Nest
3x Earthcraft
2x Flooded Strand
3x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Wasteland
2x Forest
1x Island
Any other options, Cards/Tech I don't know, opinions and constructive criticism are welcome, and encouraged. ^.^
(PS. This is my first time attempting to make a Vintage Deck.. :S)
Forked Bolt is amazing. Electrickery may even have some use. Volcanic Fallout is awesome. Is Gut Shot bad? (I think spending 2 Life to snip an unflipped Delver, or a Pyromancer when they least expect it should be good..)
Soul Sisters, namely Auriok Champion does WORK (better than Firewalker imo.) And can Sideboard Rest in Peace to shut off Cruise and Snapcaster.
Jotun Grunt is also interesting Tech, effectively a 4/4 you can swing with a couple of times that shuts off Cruise.
Spirit of the Labyrinth is also a cute Hatebear; prevents Cantrips and Cruises, keeps people honest (only Draw once, and from the Draw Step. :P)
Chalice, if it can Resolve, is pretty dirty. Just gotta be a Deck that doesn't need, and/or rely on, their 1-Drops (if you have any.)
Uhm, what? If Search is imminent Serum doesn't do anything for you in regards to the next Turn's Draw..
There are times when you need to use a Card right away, and Sleight is better than Serum in that regard. Sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting until you can Draw what you Scry'd, even if there aren't any impending Shuffle Effects.
I don't know, I've always sworn by Serum but I'm beginning to change my mind towards Sleight now to be honest...
I think upping the Izzet Charm and Electrolyze count, instead of adding Lightning Bolts, is the way to go. (Forked Bolts instead of Meta is REALLY Delver/Pyro heavy.) More versatile, less dead in certain Match-ups, Cantrip/Looting(Delve fuel.)
Stupid thought: Gitaxian Probe? (Instead of Telling Time/Peer most likely..) o_0 I know, crazy.
I'm kind of in ostrich mode as far as the current meta goes (ie. I'm sticking my head in the ground until January, when Cruise is hopefully banned), because we could change our Scapeshift lists to combat this Cruise Meta, only to have it be reverted back 2 months later.. I don't think it's worth it.
One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around, and this may be because I'm a noob, but when, exactly, does one use Counterflux? Or rather, is Counterflux used for it's uncounterability or the Overload? Because I can't think of a situation where one would Overload a Counterflux..
Is a 3rd Forest a must, because of STE's and Searches? Or could I run an extra Fetch and 2 Forests? (Fetches seem better, with the Dig Through Times..)
What about Forked Bolt instead of Lightning Bolt if the field has so many Delvers and Pyromancers? It also hits Snapcaster bodies.. And worst case it's 2 to enemy face to drop them to 18.
I think the Damage of Lightning Bolt is just wasted against the main Targets of Delver, Pyromancer, Tokens, etc.. Forked and Izzet Charm and Electrolyze, even Electrickery/Pyroclasm, do a better job of getting rid of those guys and not wasting all of that Damage on 1 Target.. I'd up the count on Charm and Electrolyze before I touched Bolts personally.. :S
And then DTK (Louie, Dragons of Tarkir) will maybe just have the Allied Pain Lands? (Since it'll probably be an Ally Coloured Set, with Ally Coloured Dragons.) Though I was expecting M16 to have the Ally Pain Lands. But unlike most people I do not think KTK Block will have ZEN Fetches.. at all.(I wish they would, but I doubt it.)
I've been hoping for Glissa all this time, maybe it may come true? ^.^
PS. Anyone else worried about how a Planeswalker Commander would even work out? Unlike normal Commanders, these would have a much easier Target on their heads, and get attacked right away. Granted building Board States in Commander, especially Multiplayer, may take some time.. But these "Commanders" are extremely vulnerable, and would rarely hit their Ultimates.. :S
They said that they wouldn't split Land Cycles; Enemy Duals and Ally Duals are two separate "Cycles."
I believe the way he described it was, that they had a certain % of Cards they could choose to "save", if they thought it had potential to be reprinted elsewhere Lore-wise.
(I just wish Rishadan Port, Gaea's Cradle, and Hazezon Tamar weren't on that list, or had gotten a Modern Border Judge Promo before the last loophole was closed... :S)
*FRF Drafts with both KTK and Louie, and KTK is the only "Wedge" Set, so FRF needs to be able to Draft with a Wedge Set, and a non-Wedge Set. FRF cannot be an Allied Colour Set, because that wouldn't Draft well with KTK, especially because of the pushing of Drafting into Enemy Colours. So that leaves either Mono-Coloured, or Enemy-Coloured, and I doubt Louie will be Shard-Coloured (what with lack of design space, and the fact that they've already done one recently) so that leaves it being Ally-Coloured. And what's the only thing that'd Draft with both of those? Mono-Coloured (probably with some Colourless stuff thrown in as well.)
What do you guys think? How awesome would it be if we got Enemy Fast Lands, and how likely do you think that'd be? What would that mean for Modern, having these Lands?