Just a quick note, in one of the games an Angel of Despair was played targetting my novejian sages.
I used the novigean sage to draw cards. As the effect resolved, one of the cards was mana leak, and then I proceeded to leak the Angel.
Some cool! =) (assuming it is legal, I am pretty sure it is though)
Another cool thing to note apparently i was wrong, u/g does have spot removal. Cytoshape IS removal some cool.
In today's saturday school it cropped up that when Cytoshape, shapes the opponent's critters in the likeness of a graft creature, that creature becomes a 0/0 assuming no other aura is augmenting its toughness. Some cool!
it is a 4/4 graft. and works well with the cytoplast root-kin. Also the draw effect is nice. 2 counter is costly for sure, but thats why vinelashers and and general graft effects are there. Its terms of combact tricks the sages have been key.
Sent in a graft dude, get it and opponent's dude killed and draw off the counters, Not shabby at all.
i actually think the sages will be huge
Mastery as said is for kicks.... though it may not be worth it.. being sorcery and all. The nice thing about sages is 1) 1 cc to draw, 2) you can do it at instant speed.
I may try doubling season, but coiling oracle will have to take the sidelines while STE is around
Sky swallower has'nt been that great for me, most times I am already winning. But the trample and untargetibility is nice in breaking a creature stalemate, hence 1
I like the new graft mechanic, and the cytoplast root kin is really good. It allows you to play snazzy combat tricks.
So far I have only tested against r/g gruul and it is actually doing quite alright. Currently about 3 out of 5 matches won. (this was developed from another list so there was actually more testing, just putting down the relevant ones)
First of all you note a lack of the duals.
Yah you don't really need the duals (well at least so far =P)
And for good reason, I don't like the dryad lol
The simic growth chambers are still there as they represent continous powering of the vinelashers. Miren is just so good when it comes to combat tricks.
In some matches:
I send a 9/9 vinelasher into the red zone and the options are:
1.sac to miren to gain life
2.Draw off the sages
3. Retrieve the +1/+1 to a cytoplast root-kin
All good options
Currently the two question marks are the biomantic mastery and the blood clock.
Both meant for the late game, both have yet to see play =P
the warhammers are like insurance, they keep up the pressure and you gain life at the same time, some good! (not forgetting that it also grants trample!)
Some notes:
This deck requires thinking at the combat level, most times you want to wear out your opponent's (in this case the g/r gruul) army before they can just alpha strike you to oblivion. Make a wrong move and things can go downhill very quickly. Attack only when it is safe to.
Oh yah you do not have mass removel or even targetted removal (unless you count bounce), so the simic control (or at least this version) is more about winning with "better"/"more flexible" creatures. You MUST wear out the opponent's army.
Potentially I see problems when I test it more, there are many cards at 3cc and the spell snare's "target only 2cc spells" miiggght be a problem...
This is an update to my deck .... it has changed a little =)
tested it against beach house (I was looking for a more controlish deck to test against)
In summary, it died pre boarding. (It can drag the game out.. its just that it just dies eventually with no real out)
Post boarding however it was about to do 50/50 which is good enough for me =)
The sideboard strategy was to change it into a more LD focused deck, then drag the game out and eventually overwhelm with fat critters.
Seems to work , for the longest time I was having trouble with Ink-eyes, till I got sick and decided to put ink-eyes in the SB =) that did the trick somewhat.
Shattering spree was also important in curbing down the amount of artifact mana they had.
In that case, I'd really suggest you revamp the creature base. As it is, it's a suicidal beatdown base, but your deck has changed into a more controllish strategy. yes, I advocate Rise // Fall as well.
In any case, I'll proxy your decklist up and do some testing. Expect another reply soon. =D
Its rather interesting... its not as suicidal beatdown as it looks .... there is another thread with Rakdos... that one is dedicated to beatdown, complete with frenetic goblins. =)
with this deck... if you try for an early avatar or poppet.... it decimates your hand and you are left with nothing =)
if you do test... ehh the way I am currently playing it is to keep critters off the board.... just react, bait the critters and burn out (dun play the poppets or avatar even if you have them early... play them only when it empties the hand or when your hand is empty, whichever comes first =P).
I tried playing with avatars and poppets recklessly... and it was truly suicidal =) heh bad pun yes
[Edit]
Currently it just dies to beach house.... I think it is aggro-control as beach house plays the same game this deck plays to heezy. Playing this deck against beach house is a nightmare as it is not fast enough to take it down.
But I like the deck at the moment, so I am looking at my side boarding options.
Hmm this thread got bumped real low =) so I am not sure I will get a response... But if anyone has ideas for sideboards against beach house please answer =)
currently I am trying out, Flames of the bloodhand, Delirium skeins, Rakdos riteknife and wildfire.
I have tried ravenous rats(nice but need more support),Rise/Fall (again nice but it did not really help when their creatures got online... plus the real problem was the Ivory Mask!), plague boiler (slow and hard to control when it blows up, 3 turns lead time =/).
Delirium Skeins is real nice, I managed to rip 6 cards.... but I could not maintain the board =P Flames is always nice against the loxodon hierarch or faith fetters, but the ivory mask stops it cold.
you never play poppet with cards in hand..... =) I did want a suicidal beatdown deck.... but it has sinced evolved into err this pile =p
Quote from koschei »
By skimming over your list, it looks like your creatures are hellbent enablers...yet the only hellbent card I see is demonfire.
There is also Jagged poppet.... but no this is not a hellbent deck ... (not that many hellbent cards... or at least those that I can put into a deck ... but thats just me... =) .. but no not hellbent for hellbent's sake)
Quote from koschei »
I think you should first decide if you want to go aggro, control, or aggcontrol.
good advise... its quite hard to build a Rakdos deck.... I tried Azorius and it was smooth... (not perfect, but it did'nt fall flat... Rakdos tends to blow up on itself... e.g. Avatar and your opponent plays a helix, or playing poppet too early... poppet was never meant to block =))
Quote from koschei »
+3 Nightmare Void(If you're really worried about control.),+4 Random Creature of Choice(my suggestions include Bob, lyzolda, gobhobbler rats, hellhole rats. ).
Nightmare void is too slow... Rise/Fall is very nice.... reminisent of hymn but it leaves me open in the mid to late game + discard strategy will require more dedication
bob was rather painful.... but my original version had quite a few 4cc.... most painful.... =P
its nice against aggro now.... but I'll be running it against control to see how it goes... (Rise is definitely in the SB ;))
mostly I wold be playing with elder, for your scenario it really depends on the cards in hand, if I NEED the mana I will wish I am holding elder, else either. (Even this might not be true, if you know your deck NEEDs 3 or more mana, you almost always want the elder)
I have tried Rise/Fall ... it is VERY good... but the deck has to be discard oriented, and must be able to hold the board position mid to late game (this deck does'nt have it =P)...
I can actually see the control side of me taking over.... my deck currently runs an attrition game, bursting out when the board is clear... rather than bursting out early
anyways I think it is a decent card. In limited I can see it as pretty nice, the enrage ability can come in handy.... but yes not really comparable to the dryad... BUT if you are playing b/r depending on the deck it may find a home =) (there are many 2cc critters for B/R, so its a tough sell...)
Plus this deck wants to empty the hand so, seal of fire fits snugly with its 1cc.
Seal also works nicely with pyroclasm to take out the bigger baddies.
seal of fire also makes up for some of the pain felt by the lack of instant burn. (when they cast an aura, thats when you really wish the volcanic hammer was instant =P)
I really think this decktype should be feasible, this build is in no way optimal.... but currently I feel that it should not have discard... the reason being, once the poppet gets started, you have discard plenty =)
The cranial has been crucial to take out the lynch pins in decks. I have been toying around with the idea of ravenous rats, but I'm not sure how that will work out... having just a chump block don't seem that cool =P (especially since I am taking out discard.. so the rats will not be as effective). For discard I have more or less tried the whole gamut, distress, cry of contrition, brain pry... (probably more, but those are too slow?) ... but too mey... this deck has too little defenses (those pyros were added after I dumped the discard theme), it can't really afford to be caught with discard late game (plus the poppet should be doing his job by the time it is late game ;P)
This deck can die spectacularly =) so there is definitely still room for improvement (or my playskills lol)
Edit:
ahh.... I seemed to have just noticed Fall..... from the anti rakdos thread no less lol maybe I will take a second look....
What makes this "milling life total" any more or less interesting than a "poison life total" or a regular life total? The only reason Poison failed was it was creature based. By the time you are winning with poison, you are also winning the damage race. That is what makes poison uninteresting. If you get a creature that makes poison counters without a significant mana investment (Marsh Viper vs Sabertooth Cobra) then it can make a difference. Otherwise it is junk. I don't think it can be realistically rescued.
Poison as a spell may be too strong.... ?? Most times with a decent poison strategy you get really close, spells would have completed it (much like how burn ends the game by providing reach)
Very sad, this has been my main go to site for anything new in mtg. I may not have agreed with everything or everyone, but it is what it is. Thanks for the years of information, excitement and wonder Sally. May you ever be found in the way way back machine or some such toodles.
I used the novigean sage to draw cards. As the effect resolved, one of the cards was mana leak, and then I proceeded to leak the Angel.
Some cool! =) (assuming it is legal, I am pretty sure it is though)
Another cool thing to note apparently i was wrong, u/g does have spot removal. Cytoshape IS removal some cool.
In today's saturday school it cropped up that when Cytoshape, shapes the opponent's critters in the likeness of a graft creature, that creature becomes a 0/0 assuming no other aura is augmenting its toughness. Some cool!
it is a 4/4 graft. and works well with the cytoplast root-kin. Also the draw effect is nice. 2 counter is costly for sure, but thats why vinelashers and and general graft effects are there. Its terms of combact tricks the sages have been key.
Sent in a graft dude, get it and opponent's dude killed and draw off the counters, Not shabby at all.
i actually think the sages will be huge
Mastery as said is for kicks.... though it may not be worth it.. being sorcery and all. The nice thing about sages is 1) 1 cc to draw, 2) you can do it at instant speed.
I may try doubling season, but coiling oracle will have to take the sidelines while STE is around
Sky swallower has'nt been that great for me, most times I am already winning. But the trample and untargetibility is nice in breaking a creature stalemate, hence 1
I like the new graft mechanic, and the cytoplast root kin is really good. It allows you to play snazzy combat tricks.
So far I have only tested against r/g gruul and it is actually doing quite alright. Currently about 3 out of 5 matches won. (this was developed from another list so there was actually more testing, just putting down the relevant ones)
First of all you note a lack of the duals.
Yah you don't really need the duals (well at least so far =P)
And for good reason, I don't like the dryad lol
The simic growth chambers are still there as they represent continous powering of the vinelashers. Miren is just so good when it comes to combat tricks.
In some matches:
I send a 9/9 vinelasher into the red zone and the options are:
1.sac to miren to gain life
2.Draw off the sages
3. Retrieve the +1/+1 to a cytoplast root-kin
All good options
Currently the two question marks are the biomantic mastery and the blood clock.
Both meant for the late game, both have yet to see play =P
the warhammers are like insurance, they keep up the pressure and you gain life at the same time, some good! (not forgetting that it also grants trample!)
Some notes:
This deck requires thinking at the combat level, most times you want to wear out your opponent's (in this case the g/r gruul) army before they can just alpha strike you to oblivion. Make a wrong move and things can go downhill very quickly. Attack only when it is safe to.
Oh yah you do not have mass removel or even targetted removal (unless you count bounce), so the simic control (or at least this version) is more about winning with "better"/"more flexible" creatures. You MUST wear out the opponent's army.
Potentially I see problems when I test it more, there are many cards at 3cc and the spell snare's "target only 2cc spells" miiggght be a problem...
Comments, suggestions, your experiences welcomed
3 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
10 Forest
9 Island
// Creatures
3 Cytoplast Root-Kin
3 Novijen Sages
1 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Carven Caryatid
2 Loaming Shaman
1 Vigean Hydropon
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Voidslime
4 Spell Snare
1 Blood Clock
4 Mana Leak
1 Biomantic Mastery
2 Loxodon Warhammer
tested it against beach house (I was looking for a more controlish deck to test against)
In summary, it died pre boarding. (It can drag the game out.. its just that it just dies eventually with no real out)
Post boarding however it was about to do 50/50 which is good enough for me =)
The sideboard strategy was to change it into a more LD focused deck, then drag the game out and eventually overwhelm with fat critters.
Seems to work , for the longest time I was having trouble with Ink-eyes, till I got sick and decided to put ink-eyes in the SB =) that did the trick somewhat.
Shattering spree was also important in curbing down the amount of artifact mana they had.
Will be testing more....
Currently preboard it is about 50/50 with heezy
4 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rakdos Carnarium
// Creatures
3 Avatar of Discord
4 Drekavac
3 Jagged Poppet
4 Giant Solifuge
4 Pyroclasm
3 Kindle the Carnage
3 Cranial Extraction
4 Disembowel
3 Char
4 Seal of Fire
1 Demonfire
3 Volcanic Hammer
3 Wildfire
4 Magnivore
3 Shattering Spree
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni
Edit:
ahhh scrap the carnariums =) they are too slow.... I switched them back to good 'ol swamps and mountains =)
One reason it can do 50/50 with heezy is because it does'nt get caught with karoos early
1. Gruul
2. Orzhov
3. Rakdos
4. Dimir
5. Simic Combine
6. Azorious
7. Selesnya
8. Golgari
9. Boros
10. Izzet
Its rather interesting... its not as suicidal beatdown as it looks .... there is another thread with Rakdos... that one is dedicated to beatdown, complete with frenetic goblins. =)
with this deck... if you try for an early avatar or poppet.... it decimates your hand and you are left with nothing =)
if you do test... ehh the way I am currently playing it is to keep critters off the board.... just react, bait the critters and burn out (dun play the poppets or avatar even if you have them early... play them only when it empties the hand or when your hand is empty, whichever comes first =P).
I tried playing with avatars and poppets recklessly... and it was truly suicidal =) heh bad pun yes
[Edit]
Currently it just dies to beach house.... I think it is aggro-control as beach house plays the same game this deck plays to heezy. Playing this deck against beach house is a nightmare as it is not fast enough to take it down.
But I like the deck at the moment, so I am looking at my side boarding options.
Hmm this thread got bumped real low =) so I am not sure I will get a response... But if anyone has ideas for sideboards against beach house please answer =)
currently I am trying out, Flames of the bloodhand, Delirium skeins, Rakdos riteknife and wildfire.
I have tried ravenous rats(nice but need more support),Rise/Fall (again nice but it did not really help when their creatures got online... plus the real problem was the Ivory Mask!), plague boiler (slow and hard to control when it blows up, 3 turns lead time =/).
Delirium Skeins is real nice, I managed to rip 6 cards.... but I could not maintain the board =P Flames is always nice against the loxodon hierarch or faith fetters, but the ivory mask stops it cold.
There is also Jagged poppet.... but no this is not a hellbent deck ... (not that many hellbent cards... or at least those that I can put into a deck ... but thats just me... =) .. but no not hellbent for hellbent's sake)
good advise... its quite hard to build a Rakdos deck.... I tried Azorius and it was smooth... (not perfect, but it did'nt fall flat... Rakdos tends to blow up on itself... e.g. Avatar and your opponent plays a helix, or playing poppet too early... poppet was never meant to block =))
Nightmare void is too slow... Rise/Fall is very nice.... reminisent of hymn
bob was rather painful.... but my original version had quite a few 4cc.... most painful.... =P
its nice against aggro now.... but I'll be running it against control to see how it goes... (Rise is definitely in the SB ;))
good explanation technik4 =)
The thing about the oracle that is better than the scout for me is that.
Both give you one more card, but the oracle is cheaper. also the oracle stays, but the scout has to be sacced
though the other Rakdos deck in this forum is faster =D
Rats with out discard support can leave you a little stranded later
I agree that the crypt champion is great =) but 4cc.. still it has double strike...
Will it trigger the avatar's come into play cost?
I like disembowel, as it allows me to take out critters that have been augmented with auras, regardless of their toughness
__________________________________________________
my current list: with Solifuge =D !
I have tried Rise/Fall ... it is VERY good... but the deck has to be discard oriented, and must be able to hold the board position mid to late game (this deck does'nt have it =P)...
I can actually see the control side of me taking over.... my deck currently runs an attrition game, bursting out when the board is clear... rather than bursting out early
4 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Sulfurous Springs
4 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
3 Avatar of Discord
4 Drekavac
3 Jagged Poppet
4 Giant Solifuge
// Spells
4 Pyroclasm
4 Kindle the Carnage
3 Cranial Extraction
4 Disembowel
3 Char
4 Seal of Fire
1 Demonfire
3 Volcanic Hammer
anyways I think it is a decent card. In limited I can see it as pretty nice, the enrage ability can come in handy.... but yes not really comparable to the dryad... BUT if you are playing b/r depending on the deck it may find a home =) (there are many 2cc critters for B/R, so its a tough sell...)
but it is very Rakdos =D i like it flavor-wise
discard blowup discard blowup as much as necessary =) all for 3cc
But when you get caught with it as your only card... eh.....
But definitely a good AND fun card
well I had a few =)
I took out the brain pry for seal of fires, reason being they are too limited.
Worse case scenario you get a 2cc peek, not good.
Plus this deck wants to empty the hand so, seal of fire fits snugly with its 1cc.
Seal also works nicely with pyroclasm to take out the bigger baddies.
seal of fire also makes up for some of the pain felt by the lack of instant burn. (when they cast an aura, thats when you really wish the volcanic hammer was instant =P)
I really think this decktype should be feasible, this build is in no way optimal.... but currently I feel that it should not have discard... the reason being, once the poppet gets started, you have discard plenty =)
The cranial has been crucial to take out the lynch pins in decks. I have been toying around with the idea of ravenous rats, but I'm not sure how that will work out... having just a chump block don't seem that cool =P (especially since I am taking out discard.. so the rats will not be as effective). For discard I have more or less tried the whole gamut, distress, cry of contrition, brain pry... (probably more, but those are too slow?) ... but too mey... this deck has too little defenses (those pyros were added after I dumped the discard theme), it can't really afford to be caught with discard late game (plus the poppet should be doing his job by the time it is late game ;P)
This deck can die spectacularly =) so there is definitely still room for improvement (or my playskills lol)
Edit:
ahh.... I seemed to have just noticed Fall..... from the anti rakdos thread no less lol maybe I will take a second look....
Poison as a spell may be too strong.... ?? Most times with a decent poison strategy you get really close, spells would have completed it