I've been playtesting it since yesterday and it is absurd how much value this deck has. Not having spell quellers makes the linear matchups feel a bit more scary, but BBE > Queller feels pretty bad so it's understandable. Likely bringing this pile to FNM this week.
Looks pretty interesting, but I'm super hesitant to run a deck with no removal that can't assemble a combo fast. Jund is very popular in my local meta and showing up with a deck that can't answer Bob is playing a dangerous game. We all can't win by Bob flipping a BBE off the top.
Also I've been playing some games of the GP deck. I've been having fun, it's definitely more of a Vizier combo deck that coincidentally has a Retreat that you can win off of, not that there's anything wrong with that. Super pissed I can't find my copy of Worship though. I don't know how necessary it is to run Jace, but the one time I was able to play him I won off of it.
I felt like the deck was fine and the decks I lost to were perfectly winnable if I drew the right portion of my deck. I wouldn't make any changes to the deck if I had a second chance, the only flex choice I'd make would be whether or not I should go 3 path 2 retreat or 2 path 3 retreat, but the difference seems a bit negligible and would not have made a difference today. Tomorrow I'm going to play Bant in the side events and see how that goes, going 3-3 makes me feel like I should have played Bant to begin with.
I've been testing a naya / BBE list too. Heavily inspired from a deck that 5-0'd on magic online.
I think BBE is pretty strong but you really need to build around it if you want it to shine. There's a few adjustments that should be made to use BBE over CoCo. I think the BBE decks are looking to be way more aggressive.
Most importantly is the mana dorks, IMO. Going BBE > mana dork is certainly the worst thing that can happen. I've seen lists keeping 4 hierarchs and replacing the birds with 4 wild nacalt. A 3/3 for 1 is good early and still "decent" mid/late if you cascade into it.
Second are the paths. BBE > path has the potential to fizzle against many decks (empty board, combo deck, etc). I'm currently trying with 3 helix in the main and I'm always happy to see them. BBE > Helix is always "live" because at worst you can just aim for the face. I keep the paths in the side.
It ends up being fairly different (leaning more toward aggro) than the bant version.
I actually created that 5-0 deck lol (the deck itself was someone else's slight alteration). But yeah I've definitely come to realize that I should probably be running Helix over Path. I've very, very rarely cascaded Path into an empty board (probably less than five times in the innumerable amount of games I've played) but the burn, lifegain, and not ramping them would have come in handy plenty. I tried Nacatl very briefly but I just feel like getting the T1 dork is too important to go away from.
What are people's thoughts on Vikram's list? 2 different combo finishes and 2 Jace.
I think the deck is very weird, but you definitely can't hate on a top 8 finish. Knightfall-Vizier hybrids aren't a new thing, but adding Jace seems pretty damn strong. I like it.
I 3-3 dropped (I probably should have stayed longer to get more reps but my friends were wanting to leave). I beat Esper Control, BUG Midrange, and Ironworks Combo and lost to Jund, Burn, and Scapeshift. Losing to Jund was annoying because my first game I drew three non-dork/land cards which he answered and the second game I missed four land drops in a row with an Elspeth in hand without double white, which would have secured me a win since all I needed to do was have her jump a creature twice for lethal. Against burn I was on the play and game one I had the option to try a turn three combo win but leave my Knight vulnerable T2 as a 3/3, or hold off longer and see if I could get a 2nd fetch. I took the gamble on a turn three win and lost (I wouldn't have lived long enough to get a second fetch regardless). Game three I drew nothing that gained me life. Scapeshift matchup came down to if I untapped I would have won, but he had turn four Scapeshift both times and I never drew my sideboard beaters.
I felt like the deck was fine and the decks I lost to were perfectly winnable if I drew the right portion of my deck. I wouldn't make any changes to the deck if I had a second chance, the only flex choice I'd make would be whether or not I should go 3 path 2 retreat or 2 path 3 retreat, but the difference seems a bit negligible and would not have made a difference today. Tomorrow I'm going to play Bant in the side events and see how that goes, going 3-3 makes me feel like I should have played Bant to begin with.
He'd noted that Meddling Mage was specifically to interact more with non-interactive combo G1, and he'd removed Pridemage as he's not afraid of Ensnaring Bridge now that he's playing Jace.
I'm usually not too impressed with non-Retreat lists (too many linear decks that I have to go under at my LGS), but the point about Mage is well taken. The fact that you drop Kessig and the R mana also means the mana base is less warped, which makes Clique and Jace look more appealing.
Might have to give this variant a shot.
That's almost identical to what I was playing when I was trying out Jace in Bant Company, never thought about having Meddling Mage be a mb card. I just realized how insane it'd be to Company into Meddling Mage and V-Clique.
Rallier has always been a trap card in decks like these imo. It makes sense in decks that play Viscera Seer and Eldritch Evolution so you have engines that can bin something like a Voice and retain value. Whenever I played with Rallier it rarely got more value than sometimes I got a fetch.
I don't really know a number to put on it but I've spent roughly 2-6 hours playing it every day for the last week.
BGx: Favorable, and a good reason to play the deck. We outpace them, but Jund god draws can cause us to sputter out.
Jace decks: Favorable for similar reasons to BGx. BBE is still the king Jace killer. Miracles can be a real pain in the ass since this deck can't really beat a good Entreat The Angels and Terminus can be really rough.
Affinity: Favorable, and a really good reason to run red. Having access to seven one-mana removal spells does a really good job of stopping them in their tracks, and then we side in Stony Silence and Izzet Staticaster and they don't have a chance of winning a post-board game.
Burn: Even. Burn can put us low enough to the combo is often not an option because of the self-inflicted damage. Scooze and Courser are maindeck all-stars, I run Dromoka's Command out the side in part to blow out burn.
Go-wide: Slight edge. Seven cheap mainboard removal spells and threats that outsize them is enough to win games, but sometimes things don't line up and we get swarmed out.
Tron: Unfavorable, but not unwinnable. Tron is still Tron. If we lose the dice roll we probably lose to match unless they draw poorly, but if you win the roll then it's not so bad. Turn two Knight to keep them off Tron and BBE to smack down a Karn that down-ticked can keep us in the game.
Non-interactive: Unfavorable to even, depending on your sideboard strategy. If you want to hate out non-interactive combo decks through solid sideboard strategies then it's fine. I'd like to highlight Gaddock Teeg--not running CoCo or Jace means we can run this ******** who can singlehandedly shut down entire decks.
In general: The fact that we can win through a combo as early as turn three means we can win pretty much any game. The deck is versatile enough that there are no auto-scoop matchups.
Path vs Helix: I don't really like Helix maindeck. Path is a very relevant removal spell because we need clean answers to creatures with toughness greater than three, and as a curve-out deck the difference between one mana and two mana is very relevant.
Aggressive threats vs value creatures: I feel like our value creatures is what makes the deck tick, personally. I think running Goyf is fine but will often need help from the opponent to get it big. The deck is trying to jump the 2cmc spot with all the mana dorks, and having a 1/2 Goyf as your turn two play feels bad. I've been trying out Loxodon Smiter as a throwback to my GW Hatebear days as discard and counterspell hate. I've been avoiding cards like Mantis Rider and Geist to not strain the mana too much, but it might not be a bad idea.
Was a very pleasant surprise to read through the new batch of 5-0 Competitive League decks and see an almost identical maindeck list to the one I posted earlier (-1 Qasali -2 VoR, +2 Selfless Spirit +1 Scooze)
How does mana feel in the BBE decks? I know we've always been 4-color, but the Red for just a Kessig and a sideboard card or two feels different than BBE + Bolt + Retreat (+ maybe Queller/GoST). Especially since at best half of our dorks can make Red.
I know 4-C is totally doable in Modern, especially with fixers. Just want to know how it's working for everyone. BBE into GoST does seem like a good time.
Can't complain, mana hasn't been really a noticeable issue for me. Since I run Retreat as my only blue card, dorks and Knight make it so that I don't have much of an issue with color screw and don't need to fetch -> untap shock that aggressively. 3x Courser also is a big help with keeping a healthy life total.
I've thought about it but haven't gotten around to it. I feel like landing a turn one dork is too integral to the deck but it'd also be nice to not have to rely on three drops to have bodies that are relevant.
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
I've been mainly a Bant Knightfall player ever since the deck became a thing and since the unbans almost all Knightfall players are building around Jace but after playing with both BBE and JTMS, I think moving towards BBE is going to be the better way to go. Ended up building a deck that's kind of like Zoo splashing Retreat, interested in your guys's thoughts.
Anybody here testing a BBE configuration over a Jace one? I feel like it's being a bit overlooked right now. I started playing a BBE Retreat list today and it's been really fun. List:
It's pretty much just Zoo splashing for Retreat. Losing out on CoCo feels weird since I've pretty much only played CoCo decks in Modern since that card released, but BBE has been a really fun card to play with. Hell, I've even cascaded into a Retreat for the win. Playing red over blue right now has felt nice since I've been able to deal with opposing Jaces more cleanly and having access to bolt as a removal spell rather than relying just on path has been a welcome change. Hell, to fight Jace decks I even started taking out Retreats and Breeding Pool to side in Choke which has been fun. This is certainly more on the aggressive and proactive side while still having access to a turn three combo which might be more where you want to be with Jace being in the crosshairs (even though playing with JTMS in modern has still been really fun). And hey, if you want to join in on the post-ban festivities but don't have $300 to play Jace, might as well run BBE.
So I've been testing out a Bant Company deck with 2x JTMS and it's so far been working out fantastic. List:
2 Birds
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scooze
4 Voice
4 Spell Queller
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Path to Exile
1 Dromoka's Command
4 Collected Company
2 JTMS
23 land
I cut a Bird for Dromoka's Command since I anticipate the format slowing down to where I want to lower my dorks by a hair to make topdecks better. Decks are probably going to lean more towards red-based removal spells so Dromoka's Command will serve as both a counterspell, creature removal, and I also expect an uptick in Blue Moon and Ponza so it can take care of blood moons. I added in 2x Spirit of the Labyrinth in my sideboard which has resulted in instascoops for people who got nailed with coco into Spirit in response to the Brainstorm.
The people I've been playing with so far have been people wanting to play the grindy decks using Jace/BBE, which so far this deck has breezed past them. The core card advantage engines are already extremely powerful, the addition of Jace has put it over the edge. Against BBE decks Collected Company outpaces their removal, the creatures provide more card advantage, and Knight can grab GQ for their manlands. Against Jace decks Spell Queller provides massive tempo swings, CoCo goes under Jace easily, and our creatures are better at defending Jace. A proactive gameplan means Jace is better at closing out games than Jace trying to play catchup in their decks.
I'm going to fiddle with the numbers to run Jace and Retreat together, see how it goes. If people want to start bringing in Jund and UWx control in droves, this deck is going to be very greatly positioned.
I'd rather not acknowledge Tron even exists as a deck than throw a *****ton of cards (or in some cases a 4th color) to make your 30:70 matchup become 40:60. Also, Purphoros is kind of useless. He doesn't bring anything relevant to the table that didn't already exist in the shell of the deck.
When I initially played with Renegade Rallier, I think I had only one or two copies and never saw it come up. Decided to try it out a lot more with three and jfc it's so good with the deck. There's so many tricks it's capable of. Rebuild the combo, generate a ton of value with cards like Voice, and even goes infinite. It's so easy to turn on revolt in modern and at worst when you turn on revolt, it ramps you. Total swiss army knife that opens up the deck more.
Looks pretty interesting, but I'm super hesitant to run a deck with no removal that can't assemble a combo fast. Jund is very popular in my local meta and showing up with a deck that can't answer Bob is playing a dangerous game. We all can't win by Bob flipping a BBE off the top.
Also I've been playing some games of the GP deck. I've been having fun, it's definitely more of a Vizier combo deck that coincidentally has a Retreat that you can win off of, not that there's anything wrong with that. Super pissed I can't find my copy of Worship though. I don't know how necessary it is to run Jace, but the one time I was able to play him I won off of it.
I actually created that 5-0 deck lol (the deck itself was someone else's slight alteration). But yeah I've definitely come to realize that I should probably be running Helix over Path. I've very, very rarely cascaded Path into an empty board (probably less than five times in the innumerable amount of games I've played) but the burn, lifegain, and not ramping them would have come in handy plenty. I tried Nacatl very briefly but I just feel like getting the T1 dork is too important to go away from.
I think the deck is very weird, but you definitely can't hate on a top 8 finish. Knightfall-Vizier hybrids aren't a new thing, but adding Jace seems pretty damn strong. I like it.
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
1x Hallowed Fountain
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Creature (28)
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
Planeswalker (1)
1x Domri Rade
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Dromoka's Command
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Stony Silence
I 3-3 dropped (I probably should have stayed longer to get more reps but my friends were wanting to leave). I beat Esper Control, BUG Midrange, and Ironworks Combo and lost to Jund, Burn, and Scapeshift. Losing to Jund was annoying because my first game I drew three non-dork/land cards which he answered and the second game I missed four land drops in a row with an Elspeth in hand without double white, which would have secured me a win since all I needed to do was have her jump a creature twice for lethal. Against burn I was on the play and game one I had the option to try a turn three combo win but leave my Knight vulnerable T2 as a 3/3, or hold off longer and see if I could get a 2nd fetch. I took the gamble on a turn three win and lost (I wouldn't have lived long enough to get a second fetch regardless). Game three I drew nothing that gained me life. Scapeshift matchup came down to if I untapped I would have won, but he had turn four Scapeshift both times and I never drew my sideboard beaters.
I felt like the deck was fine and the decks I lost to were perfectly winnable if I drew the right portion of my deck. I wouldn't make any changes to the deck if I had a second chance, the only flex choice I'd make would be whether or not I should go 3 path 2 retreat or 2 path 3 retreat, but the difference seems a bit negligible and would not have made a difference today. Tomorrow I'm going to play Bant in the side events and see how that goes, going 3-3 makes me feel like I should have played Bant to begin with.
That's almost identical to what I was playing when I was trying out Jace in Bant Company, never thought about having Meddling Mage be a mb card. I just realized how insane it'd be to Company into Meddling Mage and V-Clique.
BGx: Favorable, and a good reason to play the deck. We outpace them, but Jund god draws can cause us to sputter out.
Jace decks: Favorable for similar reasons to BGx. BBE is still the king Jace killer. Miracles can be a real pain in the ass since this deck can't really beat a good Entreat The Angels and Terminus can be really rough.
Affinity: Favorable, and a really good reason to run red. Having access to seven one-mana removal spells does a really good job of stopping them in their tracks, and then we side in Stony Silence and Izzet Staticaster and they don't have a chance of winning a post-board game.
Burn: Even. Burn can put us low enough to the combo is often not an option because of the self-inflicted damage. Scooze and Courser are maindeck all-stars, I run Dromoka's Command out the side in part to blow out burn.
Go-wide: Slight edge. Seven cheap mainboard removal spells and threats that outsize them is enough to win games, but sometimes things don't line up and we get swarmed out.
Tron: Unfavorable, but not unwinnable. Tron is still Tron. If we lose the dice roll we probably lose to match unless they draw poorly, but if you win the roll then it's not so bad. Turn two Knight to keep them off Tron and BBE to smack down a Karn that down-ticked can keep us in the game.
Non-interactive: Unfavorable to even, depending on your sideboard strategy. If you want to hate out non-interactive combo decks through solid sideboard strategies then it's fine. I'd like to highlight Gaddock Teeg--not running CoCo or Jace means we can run this ******** who can singlehandedly shut down entire decks.
In general: The fact that we can win through a combo as early as turn three means we can win pretty much any game. The deck is versatile enough that there are no auto-scoop matchups.
Path vs Helix: I don't really like Helix maindeck. Path is a very relevant removal spell because we need clean answers to creatures with toughness greater than three, and as a curve-out deck the difference between one mana and two mana is very relevant.
Aggressive threats vs value creatures: I feel like our value creatures is what makes the deck tick, personally. I think running Goyf is fine but will often need help from the opponent to get it big. The deck is trying to jump the 2cmc spot with all the mana dorks, and having a 1/2 Goyf as your turn two play feels bad. I've been trying out Loxodon Smiter as a throwback to my GW Hatebear days as discard and counterspell hate. I've been avoiding cards like Mantis Rider and Geist to not strain the mana too much, but it might not be a bad idea.
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Domri Rade
Spells (7)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
Enchantments (3)
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stony Silence
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Settle the Wreckage
I unfortunately have to miss FNM this week, hope to hear more about success with BBE Knightfall, I've been having a huge amount of fun with it.
Can't complain, mana hasn't been really a noticeable issue for me. Since I run Retreat as my only blue card, dorks and Knight make it so that I don't have much of an issue with color screw and don't need to fetch -> untap shock that aggressively. 3x Courser also is a big help with keeping a healthy life total.
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (7)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Domri Rade
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stony Silence
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
1x Breeding Pool
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (7)
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Domri Rade
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Choke
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stony Silence
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Path To Exile
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Domri Rade
23 Lands
It's pretty much just Zoo splashing for Retreat. Losing out on CoCo feels weird since I've pretty much only played CoCo decks in Modern since that card released, but BBE has been a really fun card to play with. Hell, I've even cascaded into a Retreat for the win. Playing red over blue right now has felt nice since I've been able to deal with opposing Jaces more cleanly and having access to bolt as a removal spell rather than relying just on path has been a welcome change. Hell, to fight Jace decks I even started taking out Retreats and Breeding Pool to side in Choke which has been fun. This is certainly more on the aggressive and proactive side while still having access to a turn three combo which might be more where you want to be with Jace being in the crosshairs (even though playing with JTMS in modern has still been really fun). And hey, if you want to join in on the post-ban festivities but don't have $300 to play Jace, might as well run BBE.
2 Birds
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scooze
4 Voice
4 Spell Queller
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Path to Exile
1 Dromoka's Command
4 Collected Company
2 JTMS
23 land
I cut a Bird for Dromoka's Command since I anticipate the format slowing down to where I want to lower my dorks by a hair to make topdecks better. Decks are probably going to lean more towards red-based removal spells so Dromoka's Command will serve as both a counterspell, creature removal, and I also expect an uptick in Blue Moon and Ponza so it can take care of blood moons. I added in 2x Spirit of the Labyrinth in my sideboard which has resulted in instascoops for people who got nailed with coco into Spirit in response to the Brainstorm.
The people I've been playing with so far have been people wanting to play the grindy decks using Jace/BBE, which so far this deck has breezed past them. The core card advantage engines are already extremely powerful, the addition of Jace has put it over the edge. Against BBE decks Collected Company outpaces their removal, the creatures provide more card advantage, and Knight can grab GQ for their manlands. Against Jace decks Spell Queller provides massive tempo swings, CoCo goes under Jace easily, and our creatures are better at defending Jace. A proactive gameplan means Jace is better at closing out games than Jace trying to play catchup in their decks.
I'm going to fiddle with the numbers to run Jace and Retreat together, see how it goes. If people want to start bringing in Jund and UWx control in droves, this deck is going to be very greatly positioned.
When I initially played with Renegade Rallier, I think I had only one or two copies and never saw it come up. Decided to try it out a lot more with three and jfc it's so good with the deck. There's so many tricks it's capable of. Rebuild the combo, generate a ton of value with cards like Voice, and even goes infinite. It's so easy to turn on revolt in modern and at worst when you turn on revolt, it ramps you. Total swiss army knife that opens up the deck more.