Not playing this deck, but just passing by and interested... Isn't Jace, Vryn's prodigy really good in this deck?
The reason I don't think Jace is played here is because in modern we are not looking to gind out a long game, while the deck can go long, its not our aim, and other decks do it way better, so we want to press our early advantages with efficient threats while the using the effects of our disruptive/hatebearish creatures to slow the opponent down.
If you saw the Standard Bant Company decks that were big just around the release of SOI, it would seem jace is a great addition, but the main difference is that in standard, this deck was able to grind out a long game fairly well, and flashbacking CoCos in those slower games is obviously insane. For the modern version, it's just not quite the same gameplan.
I have been trying to figure out a version of this deck that I can play, but as many others have mentioned, I seem to be having trouble with some popular decks in the meta right now.
Burn/Zoo type decks have been much too fast for me to deal with and I have also been having trouble with grixis control decks that have a lot of artifact hate and card advantage from ancestral. Right now, my deck comes down to the Thopter-Sword combo, Tezzeret, Trinket Mage package, and removal spells/liliana/spell snare. I originally ran a couple of cryptics, but they felt pretty bad/slow/not impactful enough nearly every time I had one. Here is the most recent iteration:
T have been having trouble with finding a balance of removal spells for the early game, and having enough artifacts to reliably use Tez. I considered flaying tendrils as many people here have been trying, but I have found that at least in my meta, the -2/-2 isn't enough to wipe the board even against some of the faster zoo decks that run nacatl and kird ape. The capsule has been great to find off of tez or t-mage but a little slow. I run the single Go for the Throat as a target for Muddle if I really need removal, but again paying 5 mana for it is really slow. The mainboard damnation has come through for me, and hitting it on turn 3 off of talisman can lead to a chance to stabilize and even into some sweet turn 4 tez, turn citadel into an untapped indestructible 5/5. I have been considering another damnation, but unsure of whether it will be best in the main or in the side.
The hand disruption spells have been great, and I wish I had a couple more. I feel like killing the hand might be the best course of action against faster decks.
Liliana has actually been quite underwhelming to me, as there are a lot of "go wide" aggro decks, and I often find that I don't even really want to +1 her because I don't want to discard. I have been considering adding more 1cmc hand disruption and/or a second damnation in place of her.
Spell snare has been amazing at slowing down aggro decks when I get it, though mana dork into 3-drop out of naya/bant CoCo decks are rough, again coming back to wanting more removal/hand disruption to slow the explosiveness here. As well, in other matches, spell snare seems to have a lot of great targets and I think it another important aspect of the early game control.
The trinket mage package has also been pretty handy, if a bit slow. The trinket package available has been pretty useful, the needle can come down and turn off some common mainboard incidental hate such as pridemage and scooze, or hit some problematic opposing threats like inkmoth nexus. Expedition map helps find Academy ruins mainly, but also can help with ensuring I have smooth mana if I have a couple colourless sources out already. The capsule as mentioned previously is a little slow as removal, but its nice to have something to find off of t-mage and tez for removal. EE is pretty self explanatory as a catch all, the green splash allows me to put it on 3 as well which can be very useful. I have found that this is an important card against a lot of aggro strategies which is the reason for 2 instead of the 1 like my other trinkets.
The wurmcoil is another one that is pretty hit or miss. In the grindy matches its wonderful but I hate to see it too early in an aggro matchup that can kill me before I can cast it. The reason I like it so much is that with Thopter Foundry it's "path-proof" as you can sac it to ensure you get the tokens, then recur it with Academy Ruins. It's obviousl a super mana and time intensive loop, but in the controlish mirrors it feels pretty good.
I'm wondering what you guys think about this list, and if there are any cards that I should try to play here. I am pretty new to the archetype, so any advice is greatly appreciated.
The could very well be included as a 1-2of over some number of either the 3rd pridemage, geists or mindcensors. The inclusion of those cards over the witness for me are hedges against some popular decks in my meta. Mindcensors do very well against any chord decks (abzan coco is big near me), make my GQ's and paths much better and when you start playing them mainboard if becomes really evident how important searching is to a lot of modern decks. Affinity and lantern are also popular which is the reason for my third pridemage. Geist might be the cut if I were to add a couple witness, as I have slowly been cutting him from my original 4, to 3 for a very long time, and now to 2. He struggles in a creature heavy meta, but the value against removal heavy decks and even just the reach that the 4/4 flyer provides over 1-2 hits can be game changing in the good matchups for him.
Currently thoughts are potentially adding a dispel to the board in place of the elspeth. I had both before, but wanted to try the intrepid hero and cut the dispel for it.
It seems to fair okay against the G/x eldrazi decks, but U/W can be difficult. Jund/Abzan really comes down to draws and skill. Affinity comes down to draws somewhat as well, though I think I am pretty well suited to beat it. Tron is a bad matchup, but winnable with a fast clock and minimal interaction from them. I have had success against kiki-chord, but its been a pretty small sample size. Against abzan Coco we have the advantage in beatdown games, but their combo can be problematic, path is strong here, but its easy to just lose to infinite life and damage when we don't have it. U/W control can be alright, voice does a lot of work here, and if I keep up pressure from an early stage with a bit of disruption I can usually win games before they stabilize. Infect can be difficult, especially the unblockable dude, but we have many answers to the inkmoth, and blockers can stall out until they run out of gas. Burn is a bye. Hatebears is a bye. Naya Zoo is close to a mirror type matchup but they are a bit faster and we are a bit more resilient/tempo oriented, I think they have a slight advantage, but its close to even.
There has been a lot of discussion on Goyf in the deck, and many of us have chosen to not play it on our own, and not due to budget. My original bant lists ran them (pre-coco), but once I shifted to a company oriented build I dropped them in favor of more utility. Personally I believe that a big strength of this deck is that we can go wide with creatures that have decent bodies and a lot of utility. A lot of the time in my deck goyf is "only" a 3/4 and while that is obviously still good value, I have found I would rather be playing Voice of Resurgence, Meddling Mage, Scooze, and Pridemage in my 2-drop slot over goyf as the added utility more than makes up for the loss in creature body. I'm sure in some builds, including goyf is the correct choice, but its not just due to budget that they have been passed up in some builds.
The original thread was closed a while ago due to overlap in discussion with this thread, so I just want to know where the best place to discuss non-combo versions of this deck would be.
I have been off the combo version for quite a while now and have been very happy playing without it, and now with the deck top 8'ing GP Bologna, I have a feeling there could be a resurgence in discussion for the Bant Company decks, but I am unsure that this thread is the place.
@ktkenshinx if you see this, is there any potential for the original Bant Company thread to be unlocked? Or would you consider this to be the place to discuss that deck as well? As someone who has played both extensively, I don't really think they belong in the same thread at this point considering the evolutions of both decks.
So yall were right about the Jund match up. My roommate plays a pretty stock Jund list and in the first three matches with Chord against him I didn't drop a single game of the six we played. It was his first time playing against the deck and my first time playing it so it was sort of a blow out of value even with me being inexperienced.
Only problem is now he's jamming copies of anger of the gods (it's a sweeper, I can understand this inclusion) but also several copies of Surgical Extraction... which he pairs with discard spells to remove all of my Chords, PtE, and Angels early in the games. It didn't always win him the game but it did win him a handful of them. Is there any way to combat something like Extraction type cards or should I not try to play around them and just work with the rest of the deck? I know we don't need chord to win but it sure sucks getting them all exiled.
I play in a meta where there are a lot of Anger of the Gods right now, and I found that having a Burrenton Forge-Tender in the sideboard has helped quite a bit. It's pretty easy to chord for 1 in response to an anger a lot of the time, and it can save your board and buy enough time to potentially win before they find another way to answer your board.
As for the Extraction effects, you can try to play an extra copy or two of scavenging ooze, and maybe be able to exile the card he is trying to extract in response. It kinda messes with your E-witness but at least you can still draw into one. Also, Scooze also happens to be strong against Jund anyways as a way to shrink goyfs.
Has anyone in here run Knight of the Reliquary before?
I recently put this deck together, and coming from playing a lot of Bant Collected Company, I fell in love with the utility and power that Knight provides. It can find utility land and can be a lot bigger than most of the creatures in the deck. I was thinking of trying to find a place for a couple of them in here. What do you guys who have had more experience with the deck think about this? Whats the main reason it doesnt see more play in this deck?
You might want to consider Kataki, War's Wage over Rec Sage as your anti-affinity sideboard dude. They often have trouble dealing with it if they don't have the galv blast ready.
I have also found that a good hatebear to run in the deck is Aven Mindcensor. I have even started dropping some beefy beaters for it in the mainboard. Works great with mainboard Ghost Quarters and Paths, and it's an answer to scapeshift (which IMO is a pretty bad matchup without them), along with any other decks that like to search their libraries a lot.
I can get behind running a bit more of a controlling build, though I think there are a few things that you can change for this exact build, and move into a tempo based direction.
You have a lack of 2-drop creatures so I think running a couple more Birds of Paradise might be a good call so that you can maximize your chances at a turn 2 three drop when you need to get aggressive. If you can land a turn 2 geist in a deck like this, you can probably tempo out the opponent with your countermagic and removal (which you might want a bit more of). I can see adding in a couple of Dromoka's Command to the mix here for a couple additional removal spells that have additional utility against red sweepers.
Another thing to note here, is that based on your current card choices you are more of a U/G deck splashing white, where most Bant Knightfall decks are G/W splashing blue. I think that if you want to support your suite of counterspells (especially cryptic), and snapcaster, you might want more blue sources in your land base. Maybe another Breeding Pool over the second Temple Garden, and if you own them a couple more blue fetches over a basic plains and a basic forest.
Notable md 4 meddling mages, no paths and chord + coco. 4 forge tenders in the side looks loose when kozilek's return starts popping up.
This is a really interesting build. It seems that he is very All-in on the combo with a lot of maindeck protection and tutoring/pseudo-tutoring. If the consistency is high enough to combo every game without getting disrupted, I could see this being a reasonable plan, but my fear is that the assumed backup plan of beatdown looks a lot weaker here. I can't really argue with the all-in combo plan if it works as well as it seems to though. It looks like nearly all of the 5-0 knightfall decks from the past month or so are pretty similar too, with more maindeck protection for the combo, foregoing the disruptive elements and the value beatdown oriented plan. Maybe moving into a meta of big mana decks that can stonewall aggro-midrange pretty quick, and hyper-aggressive decks like Infect and Affinity, we need to be able to try to match their speed in those mirrors and be able to get under the big mana decks before they stabilize.
I personally don't know if I will be testing this type of deck, as I prefer a more hatebear/value oriented approach with a backup combo, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this potentially become more of a default build. For what it's worth, this is also probably the only type of decklist that I think Wolf Run is good in, because in this scenario, you really seem to be relying on one-shotting and sometimes you need that additional pump if you can't get enough land in the yard. Maybe if I feel my meta is becoming too hostile to fair aggro decks I will be forced to try it out.
Hi everyone, it seems that the Bant Company thread was taken down due to overlap with this thread, so I thought this might be the best place to post this even though the following deck has no combo. This is a list that I recently played to a Top 4 finish at a Face to Face games modern 1k tournament in Toronto. The crowd was quite competitive and I think my deck performed quite well. I think that I am going to be moving back to a combo oriented list moving forward, but I think I made the right decision for this tournament to go all in on the value plan. My day went as follows, I would write a more detailed report but I am not great at remembering details of matches after they happened, and this was over a week ago. Key things I remember: the matches vs. Burn were not close. I have still never lost to Burn in a sanctioned match with Bant CoCo or Knightfall (though I believe value CoCo is a bit better against it). The games vs. Eldrazi were not close, but in the other direction. The abzan matchup can be a grindy one and I think comes down to the better draws if both players are around equal skill level. Delver decks are not good when you GQ their red source with a mindcensor in play and they don't have red mana the rest of the game.
Round 1: 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver (1-0 overall)
Round 2: 0-2 vs. BW Eldrazi (1-1 overall)
Round 3: 2-0 vs. Burn (2-1 overall)
Round 4: 2-1 vs. Abzan (3-1 overall)
Round 5: 2-0 vs. Burn (4-1 overall)
Round 6: ID vs. Zoo (4-1-1 overall)
Went into top 8 as 4th seed.
Quarterfinal: 2-1 vs. UR Twin(R.I.P.)
Semifinal: 1-2 vs. Abzan (same guy I beat earlier in the swiss)
Under the impression that the meta is going to shift to a place where many top decks have very important utility lands. I have recently reworked my Knightfall list a little bit and started running 4 Ghost Quarter and 3 Aven Mindcensor maindeck. I haven't had my new list out to any events yet, but I think it will perform reasonably. It has been working out very well for me in testing vs. Infect, Tron, and UR/b Prowess/Delver.
I have been recently experimenting with Aether Vial in the deck. It has a lot of interesting implications such as letting us hold up interaction spells with mana and flash in creatures with the Vial. EoT Knight into Retreat is a much smaller window that the opponent has to interact with our combo. Here is where I am at with the deck currently, I think this could potentially even do without the combo, but I think it is meta dependant. Something to be aware of with this specific land setup, is that you can't technically oneshot the opponent from full life with the number of fetches/forests/plains, but that doesn't come up enough for me to build around it.
If you want the BTL effect, Either Wargate or Chord would be more likely to achieve the effect you're looking for.
Chord is really great in this deck, allows more versatility in the sideboard too as you can search those up with it, meaning you don't need as many copies of stuff, and convoke usually makes it cheaper than the BtL.
I have been testing this deck a lot more recently, and I would like to share my most recent list with you guys. I'm looking for feedback on my list, and hoping I can provide some new ideas to others who are tweaking their lists.
I have decided to cut the companies from the deck, and take a slightly different approach to the gameplan. I'm running a couple Chord of Calling, to help find the right guy at the right time, as well as hit my sideboard 1-ofs more frequently. Elspeth and Wilt-Leaf Leige have been great in helping with the beatdown plan. Being free to run a few extra non-creatures or 4+ mana creatures after cutting the companies has made the deck stronger overall imo. I piloted this specific list to a 3-1 finish at my LGS's competitive modern night this week, as well as a 2-2 finish with a few cards different leading up to this list. I think it is in a good spot right now, but there are still some cards that I think would be strong inclusions if I could come up with the correct cuts.
These were the matches I played with this deck so far:
Event 1 - (had -1 Witness, -1 Spellskite, -1 Negate, +2 Birds of Paradise, +1 Retreat MAINBOARD, and -1 Sphx. Rev, -1 Meddling Mage, +1 Spellskite, +1 Kataki SIDEBOARD for this event)
R1: Abzan (1-2) - Absolutely crushed game 1 w/ Elspeth & Geist, lost to chain removal into double goyf beatdown game 2, in game 3 mull to 4 to find a hand that contained a colour producing land, and didn't hit a third one before I was too behind on board to make a comeback.
R2: Burn (2-0) - Game 1 I had a 4/4 KotR on turn 2 off of hierarch which was on blocking duty to hold off his early attackers, found a retreat and oneshot him a few turns later. Game 2 I luckily have a Finks and a Dromoka's Command in my opener. I was able to gain 6 life off of it and between blocks and a fight, wipe his board. Followed up with a Geist which won the race against burn spells.
R3: U/R Twin (2-1) - I got combo'd on Turn 4 in game 1, when he went for the twin into my untapped Temple Gardens and Plains, when I didn't actually have anything to stop him. Game 2 he goes for it on turn 5 and I have a path for his guy this time which gets dispelled, I respond by negating the splinter twin, end up getting a Pridemage and a KotR in play on my turn 6 (I tapped out because he had only 1 card in hand and was tapped out from attempting twin) and I combo him next turn. Game 3, I play out a turn two scooze, and land a retreat turn 3, leave an open fetch up to tap down any flash blockers he has, end up with an E.E. on 3 at one point, blowing it up when he plays Clique so it doesnt chump block my 4/4 scooze which kills him in 2 more unblocked attacks, but then he flashes Exarch EoT. He either forgets or overlooks that I have an open fetch in play with my retreat, goes for the twin, and I fetch in response to tap his exarch with the landfall. Kill him next turn with my 4/4 Ooze.
R4: Lantern Control (0-2) - Lost to Ensnaring Bridge and him locking me out of drawing answers to it in both games. Not really much I can say about these matches because I couldnt really do much. Although it was fun to Get about 10 Elspeth tokens and an emblem, along with about half of my creature base into play in game 2, when I decided to at least make him play it out to see if he messes up somewhere and I am able to draw an answer to the bridge. Unfortunately for me, he knew to not let me draw my Pridemages, Chords, E.E.s, Hierarchs, etc. Even beat me through my chord that was in my opener for Kataki, because by the time I got it into play he had enough mana to keep his lock alive and not need to play anything else.
Event 2 (current list)
R1: Some sort of Grixis Instant Reanimator(2-0) - Luckily have negate in my opener game 1, I'm able to put out a fast clock with Geist and 2 exalted triggers between a hierarch and a pridemage, I wasn't sure what he was on at first so I made sure to keep up negate, other than the turn 1 and 2 that I dropped hierarch and Geist. Stopped his reanimation spell that was attempting to bring a grave titan into play to block my lethal attack with. Game 2, I am still not exactly sure what is going on, but I bring in my dispels and Glen Elendra, I don't end up needing to counter anything as he doesn't find enough to do much against my Turn 2 scooze, I drop a turn 4 Knight of the reliquary after doing nothing turn 3 to make sure I have scooze activation available. He scoops in response to Retreat the next turn.
R2: B/W Tokens (2-1) - Game 1, I am able to get a geist out fast, along with elspeth, and a couple of voices I eat through his chump blockers and run him out of tokens and kill him, keeping him off of the only anthem he had with a Pridemage. Game 2 he beats me after I Get him pretty low through his chump blocking. He is able to stabilize after dropping a Intangible Virtue into Sorin and attacking with 3 spirits that puts the game out of reach for me. Game 3 starts to go the way of game 2, he was loading the baord with tokens and they had vigilance so he could swing and still chump block me and we end up hitting time. In extra turns I land a second KotR, and when I untap for my last turn, I am able to fetch out my Sejiri Steppe to give my other Knight pro-white and get in for the kill when he would have beat me next turn. He was super thrown off by that play because he hadn't seen a retreat at all that match.
R3: U/R Twin - (0-2) I get him to 3 from beatdown in game 1, killing 2 combo dudes he tries to flash in. He ends up being able to clique my last removal peice out of my hand and flash in an Exarch EoT, then win next turn knowing I can't stop it, the turn before I kill him. Game 2, he chains remand, mana leak, Exarch, twin w/ dispel backup, and my single path cant stop him.
R4: Jund - (2-0) Game 1 is pretty close, I kill his dudes, he kills mine, but somehow my geist gets me there in his worst matchup alongside a free Wilt Leaf Liege (Liliana activation), the final blow was the turn I land a retreat which I get a single landfall trigger with off of a fetch in response to abrupt decay that taps a goyf allowing me to get in for lethal after I pump the geist for 1 with dromoka's command. Game 2 was mono-feel bads for my opponent because he drops a turn 2 goyf off Treetop village and stomping ground, a turn 3 scooze with no land, and I am able to go hierarch > KotR > drop E.E. for 2 and crack it with the help of my hierarch. He draws no more land, and plays no more spells before scooping to my Knight beating down with the help of Elspeth. He shows me his hand of Maelstrom Pulse, Liliana, Huntmaster, Bob x2, Thoughtseize, Inquisition.
The next cards I am looking to test are Sigarda and a Creeping Corrosion in the sideboard (maybe overreacting to being able to do nothing against lantern), and potentially a couple of Rhox War Monk somewhere in the 75 to help with Zoo/Burn matchups, though, I don't think the matchups are that bad anyways.
The reason I don't think Jace is played here is because in modern we are not looking to gind out a long game, while the deck can go long, its not our aim, and other decks do it way better, so we want to press our early advantages with efficient threats while the using the effects of our disruptive/hatebearish creatures to slow the opponent down.
If you saw the Standard Bant Company decks that were big just around the release of SOI, it would seem jace is a great addition, but the main difference is that in standard, this deck was able to grind out a long game fairly well, and flashbacking CoCos in those slower games is obviously insane. For the modern version, it's just not quite the same gameplan.
Burn/Zoo type decks have been much too fast for me to deal with and I have also been having trouble with grixis control decks that have a lot of artifact hate and card advantage from ancestral. Right now, my deck comes down to the Thopter-Sword combo, Tezzeret, Trinket Mage package, and removal spells/liliana/spell snare. I originally ran a couple of cryptics, but they felt pretty bad/slow/not impactful enough nearly every time I had one. Here is the most recent iteration:
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Expedition Map
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Talisman of Dominance
3x Thopter Foundry
Instant (11)
1x Dismember
1x Go for the Throat
2x Muddle the Mixture
3x Spell Snare
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Creature (3)
2x Trinket Mage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker (5)
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Academy Ruins
1x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Darkslick Shores
3x Darksteel Citadel
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (5)
1x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Disfigure
1x Dispel
2x Duress
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Spellskite
T have been having trouble with finding a balance of removal spells for the early game, and having enough artifacts to reliably use Tez. I considered flaying tendrils as many people here have been trying, but I have found that at least in my meta, the -2/-2 isn't enough to wipe the board even against some of the faster zoo decks that run nacatl and kird ape. The capsule has been great to find off of tez or t-mage but a little slow. I run the single Go for the Throat as a target for Muddle if I really need removal, but again paying 5 mana for it is really slow. The mainboard damnation has come through for me, and hitting it on turn 3 off of talisman can lead to a chance to stabilize and even into some sweet turn 4 tez, turn citadel into an untapped indestructible 5/5. I have been considering another damnation, but unsure of whether it will be best in the main or in the side.
The hand disruption spells have been great, and I wish I had a couple more. I feel like killing the hand might be the best course of action against faster decks.
Liliana has actually been quite underwhelming to me, as there are a lot of "go wide" aggro decks, and I often find that I don't even really want to +1 her because I don't want to discard. I have been considering adding more 1cmc hand disruption and/or a second damnation in place of her.
Spell snare has been amazing at slowing down aggro decks when I get it, though mana dork into 3-drop out of naya/bant CoCo decks are rough, again coming back to wanting more removal/hand disruption to slow the explosiveness here. As well, in other matches, spell snare seems to have a lot of great targets and I think it another important aspect of the early game control.
The trinket mage package has also been pretty handy, if a bit slow. The trinket package available has been pretty useful, the needle can come down and turn off some common mainboard incidental hate such as pridemage and scooze, or hit some problematic opposing threats like inkmoth nexus. Expedition map helps find Academy ruins mainly, but also can help with ensuring I have smooth mana if I have a couple colourless sources out already. The capsule as mentioned previously is a little slow as removal, but its nice to have something to find off of t-mage and tez for removal. EE is pretty self explanatory as a catch all, the green splash allows me to put it on 3 as well which can be very useful. I have found that this is an important card against a lot of aggro strategies which is the reason for 2 instead of the 1 like my other trinkets.
The wurmcoil is another one that is pretty hit or miss. In the grindy matches its wonderful but I hate to see it too early in an aggro matchup that can kill me before I can cast it. The reason I like it so much is that with Thopter Foundry it's "path-proof" as you can sac it to ensure you get the tokens, then recur it with Academy Ruins. It's obviousl a super mana and time intensive loop, but in the controlish mirrors it feels pretty good.
I'm wondering what you guys think about this list, and if there are any cards that I should try to play here. I am pretty new to the archetype, so any advice is greatly appreciated.
3x voice of resurgence
3x qasali pridemage
1x scavenging ooze
2x meddling mage
2x phantasmal image
4x knight of the reliquary
2x geist of saint traft
3x reflector mage
2x aven mindcensor
2x kitchen finks
4x path to exile
4x collected company
1x dismember
3x misty rainforest
2x flooded strand
2x temple garden
2x breeding pool
1x hallowed fountain
1x plains
1x forest
1x island
1x horizon canopy
1x moorland haunt
1x stirring wildwood
1x sejiri steppe
2x ghost quarter
2x stony silence
1x reclamation sage
1x negate
2x spellskite
1x intrepid hero
1x ghost quarter
1x scavenging ooze
1x elspeth, knight-errant
1x disdainful stroke
2x engineered explosives
2x dromoka's command
Currently thoughts are potentially adding a dispel to the board in place of the elspeth. I had both before, but wanted to try the intrepid hero and cut the dispel for it.
It seems to fair okay against the G/x eldrazi decks, but U/W can be difficult. Jund/Abzan really comes down to draws and skill. Affinity comes down to draws somewhat as well, though I think I am pretty well suited to beat it. Tron is a bad matchup, but winnable with a fast clock and minimal interaction from them. I have had success against kiki-chord, but its been a pretty small sample size. Against abzan Coco we have the advantage in beatdown games, but their combo can be problematic, path is strong here, but its easy to just lose to infinite life and damage when we don't have it. U/W control can be alright, voice does a lot of work here, and if I keep up pressure from an early stage with a bit of disruption I can usually win games before they stabilize. Infect can be difficult, especially the unblockable dude, but we have many answers to the inkmoth, and blockers can stall out until they run out of gas. Burn is a bye. Hatebears is a bye. Naya Zoo is close to a mirror type matchup but they are a bit faster and we are a bit more resilient/tempo oriented, I think they have a slight advantage, but its close to even.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-established/607416-bant-company-5-2015-12-2015?page=10
The original thread was closed a while ago due to overlap in discussion with this thread, so I just want to know where the best place to discuss non-combo versions of this deck would be.
I have been off the combo version for quite a while now and have been very happy playing without it, and now with the deck top 8'ing GP Bologna, I have a feeling there could be a resurgence in discussion for the Bant Company decks, but I am unsure that this thread is the place.
@ktkenshinx if you see this, is there any potential for the original Bant Company thread to be unlocked? Or would you consider this to be the place to discuss that deck as well? As someone who has played both extensively, I don't really think they belong in the same thread at this point considering the evolutions of both decks.
I play in a meta where there are a lot of Anger of the Gods right now, and I found that having a Burrenton Forge-Tender in the sideboard has helped quite a bit. It's pretty easy to chord for 1 in response to an anger a lot of the time, and it can save your board and buy enough time to potentially win before they find another way to answer your board.
As for the Extraction effects, you can try to play an extra copy or two of scavenging ooze, and maybe be able to exile the card he is trying to extract in response. It kinda messes with your E-witness but at least you can still draw into one. Also, Scooze also happens to be strong against Jund anyways as a way to shrink goyfs.
I recently put this deck together, and coming from playing a lot of Bant Collected Company, I fell in love with the utility and power that Knight provides. It can find utility land and can be a lot bigger than most of the creatures in the deck. I was thinking of trying to find a place for a couple of them in here. What do you guys who have had more experience with the deck think about this? Whats the main reason it doesnt see more play in this deck?
I have also found that a good hatebear to run in the deck is Aven Mindcensor. I have even started dropping some beefy beaters for it in the mainboard. Works great with mainboard Ghost Quarters and Paths, and it's an answer to scapeshift (which IMO is a pretty bad matchup without them), along with any other decks that like to search their libraries a lot.
You have a lack of 2-drop creatures so I think running a couple more Birds of Paradise might be a good call so that you can maximize your chances at a turn 2 three drop when you need to get aggressive. If you can land a turn 2 geist in a deck like this, you can probably tempo out the opponent with your countermagic and removal (which you might want a bit more of). I can see adding in a couple of Dromoka's Command to the mix here for a couple additional removal spells that have additional utility against red sweepers.
Another thing to note here, is that based on your current card choices you are more of a U/G deck splashing white, where most Bant Knightfall decks are G/W splashing blue. I think that if you want to support your suite of counterspells (especially cryptic), and snapcaster, you might want more blue sources in your land base. Maybe another Breeding Pool over the second Temple Garden, and if you own them a couple more blue fetches over a basic plains and a basic forest.
This is a really interesting build. It seems that he is very All-in on the combo with a lot of maindeck protection and tutoring/pseudo-tutoring. If the consistency is high enough to combo every game without getting disrupted, I could see this being a reasonable plan, but my fear is that the assumed backup plan of beatdown looks a lot weaker here. I can't really argue with the all-in combo plan if it works as well as it seems to though. It looks like nearly all of the 5-0 knightfall decks from the past month or so are pretty similar too, with more maindeck protection for the combo, foregoing the disruptive elements and the value beatdown oriented plan. Maybe moving into a meta of big mana decks that can stonewall aggro-midrange pretty quick, and hyper-aggressive decks like Infect and Affinity, we need to be able to try to match their speed in those mirrors and be able to get under the big mana decks before they stabilize.
I personally don't know if I will be testing this type of deck, as I prefer a more hatebear/value oriented approach with a backup combo, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this potentially become more of a default build. For what it's worth, this is also probably the only type of decklist that I think Wolf Run is good in, because in this scenario, you really seem to be relying on one-shotting and sometimes you need that additional pump if you can't get enough land in the yard. Maybe if I feel my meta is becoming too hostile to fair aggro decks I will be forced to try it out.
Round 1: 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver (1-0 overall)
Round 2: 0-2 vs. BW Eldrazi (1-1 overall)
Round 3: 2-0 vs. Burn (2-1 overall)
Round 4: 2-1 vs. Abzan (3-1 overall)
Round 5: 2-0 vs. Burn (4-1 overall)
Round 6: ID vs. Zoo (4-1-1 overall)
Went into top 8 as 4th seed.
Quarterfinal: 2-1 vs. UR Twin(R.I.P.)
Semifinal: 1-2 vs. Abzan (same guy I beat earlier in the swiss)
Here was my decklist:
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Loxodon Smiter
2x Rhox War Monk
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Plains
2x Forest
2x Temple Garden
2x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gavony Township
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins
1x Trinket Mage
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Spellskite
Moving Forward:
Under the impression that the meta is going to shift to a place where many top decks have very important utility lands. I have recently reworked my Knightfall list a little bit and started running 4 Ghost Quarter and 3 Aven Mindcensor maindeck. I haven't had my new list out to any events yet, but I think it will perform reasonably. It has been working out very well for me in testing vs. Infect, Tron, and UR/b Prowess/Delver.
I have been recently experimenting with Aether Vial in the deck. It has a lot of interesting implications such as letting us hold up interaction spells with mana and flash in creatures with the Vial. EoT Knight into Retreat is a much smaller window that the opponent has to interact with our combo. Here is where I am at with the deck currently, I think this could potentially even do without the combo, but I think it is meta dependant. Something to be aware of with this specific land setup, is that you can't technically oneshot the opponent from full life with the number of fetches/forests/plains, but that doesn't come up enough for me to build around it.
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Aether Vial
4x Path to Exile
2x Spell Snare
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Negate
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Temple Garden
2x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Sejiri Steppe
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Academy Ruins
1x Moorland Haunt
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Spellskite
3x Stony Silence
1x Vendillion Clique
Chord is really great in this deck, allows more versatility in the sideboard too as you can search those up with it, meaning you don't need as many copies of stuff, and convoke usually makes it cheaper than the BtL.
I have been testing this deck a lot more recently, and I would like to share my most recent list with you guys. I'm looking for feedback on my list, and hoping I can provide some new ideas to others who are tweaking their lists.
I have decided to cut the companies from the deck, and take a slightly different approach to the gameplan. I'm running a couple Chord of Calling, to help find the right guy at the right time, as well as hit my sideboard 1-ofs more frequently. Elspeth and Wilt-Leaf Leige have been great in helping with the beatdown plan. Being free to run a few extra non-creatures or 4+ mana creatures after cutting the companies has made the deck stronger overall imo. I piloted this specific list to a 3-1 finish at my LGS's competitive modern night this week, as well as a 2-2 finish with a few cards different leading up to this list. I think it is in a good spot right now, but there are still some cards that I think would be strong inclusions if I could come up with the correct cuts.
These were the matches I played with this deck so far:
Event 1 - (had -1 Witness, -1 Spellskite, -1 Negate, +2 Birds of Paradise, +1 Retreat MAINBOARD, and -1 Sphx. Rev, -1 Meddling Mage, +1 Spellskite, +1 Kataki SIDEBOARD for this event)
R1: Abzan (1-2) - Absolutely crushed game 1 w/ Elspeth & Geist, lost to chain removal into double goyf beatdown game 2, in game 3 mull to 4 to find a hand that contained a colour producing land, and didn't hit a third one before I was too behind on board to make a comeback.
R2: Burn (2-0) - Game 1 I had a 4/4 KotR on turn 2 off of hierarch which was on blocking duty to hold off his early attackers, found a retreat and oneshot him a few turns later. Game 2 I luckily have a Finks and a Dromoka's Command in my opener. I was able to gain 6 life off of it and between blocks and a fight, wipe his board. Followed up with a Geist which won the race against burn spells.
R3: U/R Twin (2-1) - I got combo'd on Turn 4 in game 1, when he went for the twin into my untapped Temple Gardens and Plains, when I didn't actually have anything to stop him. Game 2 he goes for it on turn 5 and I have a path for his guy this time which gets dispelled, I respond by negating the splinter twin, end up getting a Pridemage and a KotR in play on my turn 6 (I tapped out because he had only 1 card in hand and was tapped out from attempting twin) and I combo him next turn. Game 3, I play out a turn two scooze, and land a retreat turn 3, leave an open fetch up to tap down any flash blockers he has, end up with an E.E. on 3 at one point, blowing it up when he plays Clique so it doesnt chump block my 4/4 scooze which kills him in 2 more unblocked attacks, but then he flashes Exarch EoT. He either forgets or overlooks that I have an open fetch in play with my retreat, goes for the twin, and I fetch in response to tap his exarch with the landfall. Kill him next turn with my 4/4 Ooze.
R4: Lantern Control (0-2) - Lost to Ensnaring Bridge and him locking me out of drawing answers to it in both games. Not really much I can say about these matches because I couldnt really do much. Although it was fun to Get about 10 Elspeth tokens and an emblem, along with about half of my creature base into play in game 2, when I decided to at least make him play it out to see if he messes up somewhere and I am able to draw an answer to the bridge. Unfortunately for me, he knew to not let me draw my Pridemages, Chords, E.E.s, Hierarchs, etc. Even beat me through my chord that was in my opener for Kataki, because by the time I got it into play he had enough mana to keep his lock alive and not need to play anything else.
Event 2 (current list)
R1: Some sort of Grixis Instant Reanimator(2-0) - Luckily have negate in my opener game 1, I'm able to put out a fast clock with Geist and 2 exalted triggers between a hierarch and a pridemage, I wasn't sure what he was on at first so I made sure to keep up negate, other than the turn 1 and 2 that I dropped hierarch and Geist. Stopped his reanimation spell that was attempting to bring a grave titan into play to block my lethal attack with. Game 2, I am still not exactly sure what is going on, but I bring in my dispels and Glen Elendra, I don't end up needing to counter anything as he doesn't find enough to do much against my Turn 2 scooze, I drop a turn 4 Knight of the reliquary after doing nothing turn 3 to make sure I have scooze activation available. He scoops in response to Retreat the next turn.
R2: B/W Tokens (2-1) - Game 1, I am able to get a geist out fast, along with elspeth, and a couple of voices I eat through his chump blockers and run him out of tokens and kill him, keeping him off of the only anthem he had with a Pridemage. Game 2 he beats me after I Get him pretty low through his chump blocking. He is able to stabilize after dropping a Intangible Virtue into Sorin and attacking with 3 spirits that puts the game out of reach for me. Game 3 starts to go the way of game 2, he was loading the baord with tokens and they had vigilance so he could swing and still chump block me and we end up hitting time. In extra turns I land a second KotR, and when I untap for my last turn, I am able to fetch out my Sejiri Steppe to give my other Knight pro-white and get in for the kill when he would have beat me next turn. He was super thrown off by that play because he hadn't seen a retreat at all that match.
R3: U/R Twin - (0-2) I get him to 3 from beatdown in game 1, killing 2 combo dudes he tries to flash in. He ends up being able to clique my last removal peice out of my hand and flash in an Exarch EoT, then win next turn knowing I can't stop it, the turn before I kill him. Game 2, he chains remand, mana leak, Exarch, twin w/ dispel backup, and my single path cant stop him.
R4: Jund - (2-0) Game 1 is pretty close, I kill his dudes, he kills mine, but somehow my geist gets me there in his worst matchup alongside a free Wilt Leaf Liege (Liliana activation), the final blow was the turn I land a retreat which I get a single landfall trigger with off of a fetch in response to abrupt decay that taps a goyf allowing me to get in for lethal after I pump the geist for 1 with dromoka's command. Game 2 was mono-feel bads for my opponent because he drops a turn 2 goyf off Treetop village and stomping ground, a turn 3 scooze with no land, and I am able to go hierarch > KotR > drop E.E. for 2 and crack it with the help of my hierarch. He draws no more land, and plays no more spells before scooping to my Knight beating down with the help of Elspeth. He shows me his hand of Maelstrom Pulse, Liliana, Huntmaster, Bob x2, Thoughtseize, Inquisition.
The next cards I am looking to test are Sigarda and a Creeping Corrosion in the sideboard (maybe overreacting to being able to do nothing against lantern), and potentially a couple of Rhox War Monk somewhere in the 75 to help with Zoo/Burn matchups, though, I don't think the matchups are that bad anyways.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spellskite
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
Non-Creature (14)
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Negate
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Chord of Calling
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Canopy Vista
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Spellskite
1 Academy Ruins
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Meddling Mage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Dispel
1 Sphinx's Revelation