MTG Salvation

I think you're completely missing the point(s). But that's ok.

All i'm saying is, Green's Sun's Zenith makes no sense. Green's Sun Zenith is what you are trying to get i think.. And what actually implies that it is Green's Zenith. Green's Sun's Zenith, grammatically makes no sense.



I'm not dissing the deck though, this deck is cool. Still messing with a list similar to Torpfs and trying to work some things out.

Quote from Swaggy P »

Desperate Ravings is card advantage. Faithless Looting is card disadvantage. It's that simple.

While it feels right, I'm definitely not saying i'm 100% correct with my configuration of Peer and Looting, but it's really not that simple at all. There are a crazy amount of variables to weigh. Like the fact that Ravings is only card advantage in 2 scenarios; when you have an active Ascension and when it's being flashbacked. The latter is basically the equivalent of paying 5 mana to net 1 card and cast Hymn to Tourach on yourself. That doesn't seem like a good deal when it's completely unnecessary.

Speaking of Ravings and "card advantage"- you don't really need card advantage with this deck. Once you have an active Ascension all your cantrips are more than enough to get the win, and if you're comboing through Electromancer, Peer does a ton of work finding your PIF/ Empty or whatever else you need to keep the combo going. There really isn't a point where you need card advantage, what you really want is to find specific cards, not just a lot of anything.

Quote from Swaggy P »

As for Peer through Depths vs. Thought Scour, the fact that Peer through Depths can't help you dig for an engine hurts its case. Thought Scour also fills up the graveyard, which is nice.

Here's the thing, there are pros and cons for each choice. Through countless games and matches with this deck, and constant experimentation and testing, i feel like Peer and Looting bring more to the table than Ravings and Scour, but that is just a feeling, and an opinion. Let's try to break down the pros and cons of each choice in an attempt to find a quantifiable way of coming to some sort of conclusion here.

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Ok, so now just to see what it would look like, lets take the pros and cons of each package together and list them out.

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Ok, now there is a few other things we can do with this. Let's look at the similarities between the 2 configurations; the pros and cons that they share.
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Now we can see what each set brings to the table individually.
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So again, i'm not saying i'm 100% right, but i like the way that looks, and i like the way it feels. That being said, my lists could potentially be a bit biased i guess.. I guess all i can say is that it feels really damn good playing Looting and Peer, but if anything we can agree to disagree.

People have been Heartbeat Combo in modern with Gifts for a long time now actually.

I really like the name Green's Sun Zenith. Rather than Green's Sun's Zenith, which kinda makes no sense.

Quote from izzetmage »

The old OP didn't have as much time to keep it updated, so I took over. We agreed on this via PM. You can trust me, I co-wrote the previous primer with him.

Ah i see. Well cool, thanks for the effort!

Quote from Mawootad »

Thought Scour increases your chances of hitting an engine in exactly the same way as any cantrip increases your chances of hitting an engine. While the milling out technically does decrease the odds of you not drawing an engine, it only does so in the sense that if you were to draw your entire deck you could theoretically mill away all of your engines. On the scale of drawing 30-40 cards out of your 60 the mill does not affect your chances of drawing an engine, while it does provide a significant increase in the odds of you being able to successfully online an ascension or kill with pif.

So i guess if you mill 2 cards that aren't an engine you "thin your deck" and the percentage of drawing an engine probably does go up. That's a perspective i haven't looked at actually.. I'm still not quite convinced though. You say it sets up Ascension, which i completely agree with, but so does Faithless Looting. And Peer Through Depths can find a card you need to get Ascension turned on, so there's that too.

I still think you get more benefits from running Looting and Peer, than you do from Ravings and Scour. The argument that Looting doesn't grab an engine seems kind of weak to me as you still have a great suite of dig spells to find an engine, and Peer adds so much to the deck that i feel it's worth it to lose those few percentage points in finding an engine, because by running Peer, you gain points elsewhere.

By running Peer you find what you need more often so you can combo more consistently, and when you do combo off you fizzle less because you can find the card you need to keep going. Also, and to me this is big, Peer plays extremely well with Electromancer. How many solo 'Mancer kills are you guys getting? Because in builds without Peer it was rarely viable for me. Peer lets you Solo 'Mancer like a champ. It's so good it has me wanting a 2nd Empty the Warrens maindeck possibly.

Woah, new thread already? Is this where we should post now? I will say the "new" primer looks a bit neater, but what exactly was the point of starting a new thread?

*edit* Don't mean to sound like a jerk, sorry if i came off like it!

Mystical Teachings seems a lot better than Drift of Phantasms. It cost 1 more, but it's an instant, and can grab any part of the combo, or disruption, and it can be flashbacked with Snapcaster if for some reason you need to.

i really like the way Torpf's list is looking. The deck is starting to actually look kinda tight. I'v trying to goldfish some brews but haven't came up with anything i really really like yet. But this deck still seems like it has potential to be pretty cool!

So this is what i have been testing with



I was having a hard time goldishing at first, then said screw it, and starting just playing some matches. At first i was getting starched, and then went to youtube and started watching some videos. Well i realized i was making a few critical errors and went back to it, and really started having some decent success. I'll admit there are a few games where it just doesn't come together, but i feel like im starting to get better at seeing the lines, and making the right plays off a Titan.

The deck is crazy fun though. I'm gonna keep trying to jam this for a while and see what happens.

As for my list, i ended up going with Stirrings for now and favor that over SSG. Being really fast is cool, but i like being able to dig 5 t1 for an Amulet or Bounce land to set up that t2 Titan/Hivemind.

Also with the lands, i decided to run both playsets of rainbow lands. I'm not sure what mana bases you guys are running, but i was having problems just not being able to cast spells for turns because everything came into play tapped, or even just being forced to mull hands with no regular lands, and just bounce lands.

I also haven't decided on if i wanna run Kabira and Khalni, or the Glimmerpost duo. What i like about Glimmerpost, is that it comes into play untapped. I really just wasn't feeling getting bogged down on tapped lands. But that being said, Khalni is sweet in some matches.. so it's really hard to choose.

I wanted to try out Kessig Wolf Run also, but i haven't got a chance yet. What's the consensus there?

This is pretty much the standard list as far as i know. Some people go up to 3 Grapeshot but other than that, this what most people are playing.

Quote from Sodek »

Peer through depths won't find a land, goblin electromancer or PA. Having lands or combo engines is more important than sweet option to dig deep for Past in Flames or ritual.

Ok, here's the thing though. Lets take a took at what cards are in the standard list that can dig for a land, or an engine.

4 Manamorphose - 1 deep
4 Gitaxian Probe - 1 deep
4 Serum Visions - 3 deep
4 Sleight of Hand - 2 deep
4 Thought Scour - 1 deep
3 Desperate Ravings - 2 deep

we got 23 cards here, which is great. And a combined 40 cards deep worth of digging.

Here's the cards in my list that can dig for an engine, or land.

4 Manamorphose - 1 deep
4 Gitaxian Probe - 1 deep
4 Serum Visions - 3 deep
4 Sleight of Hand - 2 deep
3 Faithless Looting - 2 deep

Here we have 19 cards to dig which is pretty good. And a combined 36 cards deep worth of digging.

So really we are only losing 4 cards deep worth of digging. Now you also have to take into account the fact that Scour mills 2 cards when you cast it, and really only just cycles itself- If you draw an engine or land off Scour, because it only cycles itself, you would have had that card in hand anyway, if you weren't playing Scour. But now, what you doing is adding a chance of milling an out. That's a chance you don't even have to take. I'm not sure on the math, but my intuition tells me Thought Scour may actually have a negative impact on finding an engine rather than helping you.

Now i fully admit Scour has benefits elsewhere, can sometimes speed up the deck, and help set up Ascension, and Past in Flames. However the point i'm trying to make is that, running Looting and Peer really doesn't have a negative impact on your ability to find an engine at all.

There is another point to consider as well, on t1 Looting digs 2 for a land or engine, while Scour cycles itself into a card you would have had anyway, and mills 2.

So what this means, is that we essentially have the same chance to find a land or engine, but i also now have the ability to find exactly what i need to set up the combo, and not fizzle.

When it comes down to it though, it's really hard to measure because there are so many variables. The search package of Ravings and Scour has completely different pros and cons than running Peer and Looting.

I very well could be wrong, but at least for now, i think my search package feels extremely tight and consistent. I feel like the benefits of Looting and Peer, outway the benefits of Scour and Ravings, and at the same time is safer, and more consistent.

Quote from conmandude »

So can someone help me out here? I don't know how to continue the combo with 5 mana from here:

Lands: 2 Steam Vents, 2 Islands, 1 Sulfur Falls
Hand: Pyretic Ritual, 2 Past in Flames, Channel the Suns, Echoing Truth, Lightning Bolt
Yard: Gifts, Increasing Vengeance, Mana Seism, and 9 other cards irrelevant to the combo.

The problem here came before you even got to this state. With those cards in hand, that means you must have cast Gifts with 2 Past in Flames in hand. That's not going to win you the game. For the most part, generally speaking you need 2 different combo pieces in hand before you cast Gifts for the other 4.

But yeah, if you had a 6th land you could combo off with just PIF and Gifts, but it's not guaranteed. If they give you Increasing Vengeance and Mana Seism, you still lose.


This has got me thinking though, someone needs to go through and chart out all the possible hand configurations and what the minimum requirments are for a guaranteed win. I guess that person is going to be me..

For these, the "what the opponent will give you", is what their best choice is, not the best choice for us.





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So out of all 15 possibile configurations, only 6 of them need 6 mana to guarantee a win no matter what you get.

Past In Flames - Manamorphose

Past In Flames - Increasing Vengeance

Past in Flames - Mana Seism

Manamorphose - Channel the Suns

Manamorphose - Increasing Vengeance

Manamorphose - Mana Seism

A few of these can get wins with 5 lands, but there's a possibility for your opponent to pick the right 2 and cut you off. With 6 lands they are assured. The other 9 Configurations however, can guarantee a win on just 5 lands



These ones are interesting because they can win on 5 lands, but you wanna Gifts for Noxious Revival rather than Manamorphose with these ones.

Past in Flames - Channel the Suns

Increasing Vengeance - Channel the Suns

Increasing Vengeance - Mana Seism

Pyretic Ritual - Channel the Suns

So i'v been mostly into Legacy magic for a long time but got into Modern about a year ago. I'm a huge fan of crazy combo decks and while i knew about this decks existence and even played against it a few times, i never really gave it much of a look. Well about 2 days ago i ran into an article on this deck and finally realized how insanely cool this thing is.

I haven't actually played a match, but i'v been goldfishing like a madman and reading everything i can on the deck. I managed to find a few articles and read through the old threads on Amulet Combo.. I could see myself getting really into this deck.

I plan on goldfishing a bunch more and then just jamming it like a crazy person on cockatrice until i get comfortable with it.

I do have a question though, what's everyone's opinion on Simian Spirit Guide vs Ancient Stirrings?

Been a Legacy player mostly up until about a year ago, when i started getting into Modern as well. I'v been a huge fan of Storm in
Legacy and immediately got into Modern UR Storm as soon as i started playing Modern. My list has gone through a lot of changes since i first started playing the deck, and i have actually settled on some somewhat different choices than a lot of what i see here.

Here's what i have been playing



So i guess the 3 things that stick out are Faithless Looting, Peer Through Depths, and maindeck Empty the Warrens.

As far as Faithless looting, i'm not 100% sure it's correct, and i flop around around between Looting and Thought Scour every once in a while, but i have been leaning towards Looting for a bit now. What i like about it, is first off, it's red so you can play it without worrying about choking on blue(this also lets me get away with playing Peer), also it actually draws 2 cards, so t1 it provides another card that can actually dig for a land or engine. What i also like about it, is this deck can sometimes clump up on engine pieces, and win conditions, both before and during the combo. Looting lets you cycle those dead cards, lands, extra Past in Flames, etc, for something more useful. Obviously it's downside comes from it's lack of real card advantage and it can sometimes make mulligans annoying. So it really is a toss up, but right now at least i'm on Looting.

With Peer through Depths what i like is that it can find whatever you need. This card is so good in this deck, i'm actually surprised i don't see more people playing it. This is probably one of the most important cards in the deck for me, and what wins me the game most actually. This is what finds that Past in Flames so you can continue the combo, or that Ritual you need to start the combo, or that Grapeshot, or Empty the Warrens you need to actually finish the game. And with an Active Ascension this card is just absurd(but then again what card isn't with an active Ascension) Peer is also really good with Electromancer and makes solo Electromancer wins way easier to come by. It actually has me considering adding a second Empty the Warrens maindeck because of how easy it easy to shoot off quick Emptys with Electromancer.

Anyway the deck feels really consistent and fast, and i have been having a blast playing it.


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As far as the Banefire idea, i'm not really sold on it. As others have said, Grapeshot and Empty are basically uncounterable anyway. And they are both easier to pull off and actually win with.

This deck looks pretty cool, but how does it combo off exactly? I see how it can make a *****load of mana, but how are you replenishing your hand, and drawing cards? Do you just tutor for Blue Sun, Sun yourself to draw cards and keep looping that until you can Blue Sun the opponent?

I would have to vote for Birthing Pod, Gifts Ungiven, and probably Arcbound Ravager too.

To keep it simple.. In my opinion, Amulet, Pod, and Gifts decks are probably the hardest to play.