I actually had a wicked idea just now and had to come here to spill it. I don't have an exact schematic down, but perhaps a new Tibalt with his catch being that he can be cast super-cheap for madness? I know it's odd for a planeswalker, but it's just a thought. I think it could be interesting. As for the actual design, hmm...
Perhaps something like this:
Tibalt the Mad 2RB
3 Loyalty
+1: Draw two cards, then discard either a creature, instant, or sorcery, or discard your hand.
-X: Deal X damage to target creature. That creature's controller discards X card(s) at random.
-6: Target player receives an emblem with: "Whenever you cast a spell, this emblem deals 4 damage to you."
Madness RB
Needless to say, it'd be a nice return for Tibalt. But who knows. I like it well enough.
Not really sure what to call this deck. In testing it's won all but one match, but that's against other people who are also testing prototype decks, so I have no idea how effective it actually is. The deck has a lot of value for 3 and less cmc creatures, Ayli being the star by keeping us afloat with lifelink when needed, and triggering Lili, Hangarback, and Avacyn when we don't. Removal takes care of stuff we can't normally get over, or things that pose an immediate threat. Shamble Back is surprisingly useful with lifegain, exiling a problem creature from an opponent's yard, getting us 2/2 untapped, and potentially turning on Erebos's Titan. Wincons are Avacyn, Titan, Sorin, or most notably From Under the Floorboards, though these change slightly with the situation. Madness has outlets in Heir, Bloodline, Lili and Waltz. Tragic Arrogance and Avacyn are fine boardwipes, and Linvala can potentially bring us back when we're low. Everything else should be somewhat self-explanatory. I haven't really had a problem with draws being on the lower end of lands, and I'm not really sure about a sideboard, so I just kinda threw one together. Please let me know, feedback is appreciated.
No need to be hostile. If you can think of a reason why Transgress is better than all of that stuff, we can talk about that. I'm not trying to shut you down. I'm just trying to put good information into the thread.
If you're really, truly judging whether or not they are "better" than one another, despite them all being almost entirely different cards in entirely different Limited environments, then we really don't need to talk. The only thing these do have in common is being discard spells, that's it. I sincerely hope this isn't your best effort to put "good information" into a thread.
Great, thank you for clarifying that it is, indeed, not in Origins, or "any iteration of the Khans block". I mentioned them solely as an example of what a Limited list of 3+ CMC cards would look like.
Ran 13 lands yesterday in Origins draft, went 3-0, never had a problem with mana. I almost always stick on the lower end of lands, never more than 15, though admittedly last night I had a rather low curve. Still, I very rarely have issues with a smaller mana-base, and more often than not I find myself being flooded rather than having no land. Just my two-cents.
EDIT: Depending on how prevalent an Eldrazi themed meta is in limited after BFZ, I can certainly see running 16/17 lands just to pay for the fatties, even with Scions to pitch in. Still, I probably wouldn't run more than 15.
I can't entirely tell whether this post is serious. There is no way that 13 land is enough if you're shuffling properly and/or your opponent is shuffling your deck. Even a focused Cube aggro deck with a curve that stops at 3 is going to be hard-pressed to go below 15 land. If serious, I'm assuming this is in paper Magic, not online play.
I can PM you the decklist if you'd like. 6 Forest, 6 Swamp, and a Llanowar Wastes. One Leaf Gilder as extra mana acceleration, and I don't believe I ran more than 1 or 2 land grabbing spells, as I certainly didn't get a chance to play them. Yes, btw, it was paper. It was last night at my LGS.
I'm not sure why you'd need to PM it. You could just post it here if you feel it's relevant to the discussion. I think if you are actually winning matches with 13-land decks at least one of the following is true:
- Your shuffling is suspect. (Not intentionally.)
- Your opponents don't realize the importance of shuffling your deck well if you aren't doing so.
- The average skill level in your local games is relatively low, letting things like a gutsy 13-land elf deck run the table.
Just to be clear, I don't mean anything mean or condescending by this. I just don't feel that your experience squares with the general probabilities we've come to accept as part of the Limited landscape.
Ran 13 lands yesterday in Origins draft, went 3-0, never had a problem with mana. I almost always stick on the lower end of lands, never more than 15, though admittedly last night I had a rather low curve. Still, I very rarely have issues with a smaller mana-base, and more often than not I find myself being flooded rather than having no land. Just my two-cents.
EDIT: Depending on how prevalent an Eldrazi themed meta is in limited after BFZ, I can certainly see running 16/17 lands just to pay for the fatties, even with Scions to pitch in. Still, I probably wouldn't run more than 15.
I can't entirely tell whether this post is serious. There is no way that 13 land is enough if you're shuffling properly and/or your opponent is shuffling your deck. Even a focused Cube aggro deck with a curve that stops at 3 is going to be hard-pressed to go below 15 land. If serious, I'm assuming this is in paper Magic, not online play.
I have terrible luck with land count in limited so I always run 18 and hope to not get screwed. For some reason if I run less I usually end up flooded ??? (This is from maybe a hundred limited matches, less than 18 gets me flooded a majority of the time, I started keeping track when I felt like I kept flooding at 17)
Same kind of idea. If you believe that you have different luck than anyone else in regard to flooding you're not accepting basic statistical truths. It's possible for your luck to be worse than someone else in a short-term sample, but that's a hindsight matter, not a predictive one. The idea that you would flood more in the long run when you run fewer lands is just so nonsensical as to be immediately rejected, don't you think?
You would think that, and I do try to adjust in between matches (if I'm flooding I'll go down to 17 if I'm screwed I'll go up to 18), but it rarely happens that way. Statistical evidence shows that the MTGO shuffler absolutely has a mind of its own
People complain about the shuffler, but the only actual studies I've seen have shown that the shuffler presents much more random decks than the average human. It just so happens that in reality that means screw and flood will be slightly more common. Most humans do not do a proper job of randomizing decks, especially at the kitchen table or a weeknight draft.
Just didn't want in infraction for posting it is all, but here it is.
As far as your points go, 1. I shuffle just the same as I always have, nobody's ever had a problem with it, myself included, 2. I encourage all of my opponents to cut if they haven't yet, all of them did last night 3. My opponents weren't idiots, and I didn't "run" the table, I tied for 1st with two others, and 4. Whether or not intentional, you're extremely condescending. All of this, however, much like your own statements, is simply my years of experience and opinion versus yours. Not "ours" (or rather "theirs", as you might put it, the patrons of this forum being the subject), just yours. As I mentioned, I have always played with a low land-base, and believe it or not, I actually lost a game last night due to flooding. Statistics mean VERY close to nothing when you're building and playing practically entirely on luck. You could "statistically" build the best deck you possibly can with the cards at your disposal and still flood and get blown out by your opponent's average-or-less Limited bomb (ala Volcanic Rambler for example). At the end of the day, you don't even have to believe me, and can carry on with your life without our little debate having any effect on it. I'm only here to say that I've had better luck more often than not by sticking to the low-end of land.
By my count (give or take 3 cards, did a speed-count), Transgress hits 61 cards of 99 spoiled. That's just under two thirds. We'll have to wait and see just how many targets Transgress can hit after everything is spoiled, but just to give some insight, Magic Origins, if Transgress was printed there, could hit 174 of 272 total cards. Thats 64%. How about Dragons of Tarkir? 159 of 264. That's 60%. And now we're currently talking about a Limited environment that touts Eldrazi of all things. You know, the 5+ CMC bombs? And you're telling me removing a potential threat like that before turn 3 is a bad thing because of tempo? Tempo in a Limited environment is MUCH different than in Constructed, something I would have thought you'd have known, bringing up the significant differences between the two formats. I merely used Stroke as an example of a recent similar card. Plus, while we could debate differences all day, the big thing is that Transgress stops threats of 3 CMC or higher before they're even cast, while Stroke stops only 4 or higher, and after being cast. I said it before and I will again, don't underestimate this card.
Are you saying you'd maindeck Transgress in Limited?
Indeed, without a moment's hesitation. Don't get me wrong, this card isn't first pick worthy by any means in draft, but it's certainly not a bad pick at all. And I'd say definitely play it at prerelease if you're running black.
Ran 13 lands yesterday in Origins draft, went 3-0, never had a problem with mana. I almost always stick on the lower end of lands, never more than 15, though admittedly last night I had a rather low curve. Still, I very rarely have issues with a smaller mana-base, and more often than not I find myself being flooded rather than having no land. Just my two-cents.
EDIT: Depending on how prevalent an Eldrazi themed meta is in limited after BFZ, I can certainly see running 16/17 lands just to pay for the fatties, even with Scions to pitch in. Still, I probably wouldn't run more than 15.
I can't entirely tell whether this post is serious. There is no way that 13 land is enough if you're shuffling properly and/or your opponent is shuffling your deck. Even a focused Cube aggro deck with a curve that stops at 3 is going to be hard-pressed to go below 15 land. If serious, I'm assuming this is in paper Magic, not online play.
I can PM you the decklist if you'd like. 6 Forest, 6 Swamp, and a Llanowar Wastes. One Leaf Gilder as extra mana acceleration, and I don't believe I ran more than 1 or 2 land grabbing spells, as I certainly didn't get a chance to play them. Yes, btw, it was paper. It was last night at my LGS.
By my count (give or take 3 cards, did a speed-count), Transgress hits 61 cards of 99 spoiled. That's just under two thirds. We'll have to wait and see just how many targets Transgress can hit after everything is spoiled, but just to give some insight, Magic Origins, if Transgress was printed there, could hit 174 of 272 total cards. Thats 64%. How about Dragons of Tarkir? 159 of 264. That's 60%. And now we're currently talking about a Limited environment that touts Eldrazi of all things. You know, the 5+ CMC bombs? And you're telling me removing a potential threat like that before turn 3 is a bad thing because of tempo? Tempo in a Limited environment is MUCH different than in Constructed, something I would have thought you'd have known, bringing up the significant differences between the two formats. I merely used Stroke as an example of a recent similar card. Plus, while we could debate differences all day, the big thing is that Transgress stops threats of 3 CMC or higher before they're even cast, while Stroke stops only 4 or higher, and after being cast. I said it before and I will again, don't underestimate this card.
Don't underestimate Transgress the Mind. I run two maindeck Disdainful Stroke in Standard, you'd be surprised just how useful it is (I'm running a Jeskai Tempo variant), and Trangress is very similar in terms of functionality. Trangress the Mind is certainly maindeck material, especially if Eldrazi and whatnot are going to be as prevalent as they seem to be. As far as I'm concerned, this is a sorcery-speed removal that reads "Exile any mid to late game threat."
Ran 13 lands yesterday in Origins draft, went 3-0, never had a problem with mana. I almost always stick on the lower end of lands, never more than 15, though admittedly last night I had a rather low curve. Still, I very rarely have issues with a smaller mana-base, and more often than not I find myself being flooded rather than having no land. Just my two-cents.
EDIT: Depending on how prevalent an Eldrazi themed meta is in limited after BFZ, I can certainly see running 16/17 lands just to pay for the fatties, even with Scions to pitch in. Still, I probably wouldn't run more than 15.
I laugh at all these people claiming "fake" and "fan-art". Of course they have mistakes, I'm guessing at least three of the five are mockups of cards someone only got to read, not write down. Why do I believe this? Simple: People were saying the same thing about Chandra from Origins. She got leaked incredibly early and had people claiming left and right "Oh, the symbol is off-kilter, fake and dumb lel!!1!1" and "No way Chandra would be this weak, confirmed fake." And here we are post-Origins with the exact same spoiled card showing up in Red decks nowhere (since it does indeed suck). The original thread even got locked because a Mod deemed it fake. A word to those with open ears; don't listen to speculation (as that's all this is, speculation) by people on the Rumor Mill, it'll only lead to your disappointment.
These are not at all comparable to the Chandra leak. Chandra was using artwork that had never been seen before. These are clearly fakes and not actual leaks. If the "leaker" wanted us to believe these were just mock-ups of cards he saw, he should have said so, not try to pass fake cards as legit.
There is also context to consider. The original poster of Chandra was even skeptical about the authenticity of Chandra at first and didn't just leave a cryptic response and leave the images. While they could be mock ups, the poster should have identified them as such. Also, using other people's hard work from deviantart and not giving them credit is very rude if the land art is indeed from deviantart. Also we have had a slew of fakes coming in; another Gideon, the enemy fetch lands for commander, and other duel lands to name a few.
Keep denying it, boys. Soon enough you'll be eating your words.
I laugh at all these people claiming "fake" and "fan-art". Of course they have mistakes, I'm guessing at least three of the five are mockups of cards someone only got to read, not write down. Why do I believe this? Simple: People were saying the same thing about Chandra from Origins. She got leaked incredibly early and had people claiming left and right "Oh, the symbol is off-kilter, fake and dumb lel!!1!1" and "No way Chandra would be this weak, confirmed fake." And here we are post-Origins with the exact same spoiled card showing up in Red decks nowhere (since it does indeed suck). The original thread even got locked because a Mod deemed it fake. A word to those with open ears; don't listen to speculation (as that's all this is, speculation) by people on the Rumor Mill, it'll only lead to your disappointment.
I'm not really sure where else to post this, so bear with me if this is the wrong place. I bought a bunch of old cards off a guy on craigslist the other day, and I finally got around to looking through them. Most of them were around the Odyssey time period, but among anything worth value I found three foil lands. Now, I've only played Magic competitively since Born of the Gods, so I did a bit of digging on these lands, and it turns out they are in the same style as the arena promos of lands. However, these lands aren't arena promos, as far as I know. They have the foil and the shooting star in the bottom left, but they aren't listed anywhere as being an arena promo. The Island is the same as Onslaught 335, one Plains is 332 from Invasion, and the other Plains is 331 from Odyssey. Is this just the way foil lands were printed back then, with the shooting star in the bottom left? The cards are in good condition for their age, lightly/moderately played I'd say, but I have no idea if they're just regular foils from these sets or some oddity.
Nah, the deck is mill revolving around Sphinx's Tutelage. Even if I boarded out Dictate of Kruphix and whatnot, I'd still be left with practically no wincon.
Perhaps something like this:
Tibalt the Mad 2RB
3 Loyalty
+1: Draw two cards, then discard either a creature, instant, or sorcery, or discard your hand.
-X: Deal X damage to target creature. That creature's controller discards X card(s) at random.
-6: Target player receives an emblem with: "Whenever you cast a spell, this emblem deals 4 damage to you."
Madness RB
Needless to say, it'd be a nice return for Tibalt. But who knows. I like it well enough.
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Asylum Visitor
3 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
3 Erebos's Titan
3 Hangarback Walker
2 Heir of Falkenrath
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Mindwrack Demon
Planeswalker (2)
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Land (22)
1 Blighted Fen
1 Blighted Steppe
4 Caves of Koilos
6 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
7 Swamp
2 From Under the Floorboards
1 Macabre Waltz
2 Ruinous Path
2 Tragic Arrogance
2 Shamble Back
Enchantment (2)
2 Call the Bloodline
Instant (7)
3 Anguished Unmaking
2 Dazzling Reflection
2 Immolating Glare
2 Archangel of Tithes
1 Creeping Dread
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Hidden Dragonslayer
2 Surge of Righteousness
2 To the Slaughter
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Triskaidekaphobia
If you're really, truly judging whether or not they are "better" than one another, despite them all being almost entirely different cards in entirely different Limited environments, then we really don't need to talk. The only thing these do have in common is being discard spells, that's it. I sincerely hope this isn't your best effort to put "good information" into a thread.
Great, thank you for clarifying that it is, indeed, not in Origins, or "any iteration of the Khans block". I mentioned them solely as an example of what a Limited list of 3+ CMC cards would look like.
Just didn't want in infraction for posting it is all, but here it is.
1x Deadbridge Shaman
1x Elvish Visionary
2x Eyeblight Assassin
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Gilt-Leaf Winnower
1x Leaf Gilder
3x Orchard Spirit
1x Runed Servitor
1x Shaman of the Pack
1x Somberwald Alpha
1x Thornbow Archer
1x Might of the Masses
2x Reclaim
2x Titanic Growth
1x Touch of Moonglove
1x Infernal Scarring
1x War Horn
1x Eyeblight Massacre
1x Gather the Pack
1x Languish
1x Reave Soul
1x Llanowar Wastes
6x Swamp
As far as your points go, 1. I shuffle just the same as I always have, nobody's ever had a problem with it, myself included, 2. I encourage all of my opponents to cut if they haven't yet, all of them did last night 3. My opponents weren't idiots, and I didn't "run" the table, I tied for 1st with two others, and 4. Whether or not intentional, you're extremely condescending. All of this, however, much like your own statements, is simply my years of experience and opinion versus yours. Not "ours" (or rather "theirs", as you might put it, the patrons of this forum being the subject), just yours. As I mentioned, I have always played with a low land-base, and believe it or not, I actually lost a game last night due to flooding. Statistics mean VERY close to nothing when you're building and playing practically entirely on luck. You could "statistically" build the best deck you possibly can with the cards at your disposal and still flood and get blown out by your opponent's average-or-less Limited bomb (ala Volcanic Rambler for example). At the end of the day, you don't even have to believe me, and can carry on with your life without our little debate having any effect on it. I'm only here to say that I've had better luck more often than not by sticking to the low-end of land.
Indeed, without a moment's hesitation. Don't get me wrong, this card isn't first pick worthy by any means in draft, but it's certainly not a bad pick at all. And I'd say definitely play it at prerelease if you're running black.
I can PM you the decklist if you'd like. 6 Forest, 6 Swamp, and a Llanowar Wastes. One Leaf Gilder as extra mana acceleration, and I don't believe I ran more than 1 or 2 land grabbing spells, as I certainly didn't get a chance to play them. Yes, btw, it was paper. It was last night at my LGS.
EDIT: Depending on how prevalent an Eldrazi themed meta is in limited after BFZ, I can certainly see running 16/17 lands just to pay for the fatties, even with Scions to pitch in. Still, I probably wouldn't run more than 15.
Keep denying it, boys. Soon enough you'll be eating your words.
EDIT: Yes, I meant Sphinx's Tutelage, ha ha.