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  • posted a message on July 2019 Ban List Update
    As not-happy as I am with the RC at the moment under no circumstances do I think WotC should take over

    For better or worse the idea of "just goof around" is the foundation of the format and I have no faith that WotC would take the time to maintain it. We'd wind up with a vastly different format, and that's not what I think we should be striving for.

    To rewind to the middle of a previous post I don't feel like chopping up and editing to quote, I think Coalition Victory is the most-wanted card on the banlist because, based on my own scientific assumptions, a large portion of the EDH crowd recognize that as cheesy as it is it's a super weak card. It is certainly emblematic of a kind of wincon the RC doesn't want to encourage, and I genuinely understand that, but hoo boy it's the saddest, weakest card on the banlist by a country mile.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    Quote from Sephon19 »
    Quote from Sephon19 »
    People need to stop claiming that Iona is fine because other players can solve the solitary monocolored player's problem. They might do so if they're nice, but they have no incentive to unless the board state calls for it in particular (which is rare).


    In my play group, unless the person getting locked out is approaching critical mass, we tend to let each other out of jail to team up on the warden.

    I understand that this is not a universal experience, but it's also not an uncommon one.


    The thing is, from a purely mechanical perspective, there is no real incentive for that kind of behavior. Sure, EDH is a casual, social format, but the banlist should deal with the most egrerious elements that would incentivize poor experiences. Infact, what you're basically doing in your playgroup is to enforce a social ban on the card, since you actively punish the player that ruins the game for another. It's just another argument for the ban. (Not saying that you necessarily disagree with the ban ofc.)


    The mechanical incentive is that, typically, the player doing the lockdown probably has a way to put you in a cage, too. So if you unleash the beast then the two of you can bop the offending player out of the game and move forward. One down, however many to go.

    As for a social ban? Nah. If someone's starting to hand out Overwhelming Splendors and they pull it off, fine. Just pull it off; don't leave players flailing while the rest of the table goes on as normal. We don't care if you try to lock someone down so long as you win off of it. Armageddon? Sure, just win. Worldpurge? Sure, just win. Stasis? Sure, just win. Brine Elemental? Sure, just win. Don't drag it out, don't grind misery, just win so we can all move on.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    Quote from Sephon19 »
    People need to stop claiming that Iona is fine because other players can solve the solitary monocolored player's problem. They might do so if they're nice, but they have no incentive to unless the board state calls for it in particular (which is rare).


    In my play group, unless the person getting locked out is approaching critical mass, we tend to let each other out of jail to team up on the warden.

    I understand that this is not a universal experience, but it's also not an uncommon one.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    Quote from cryogen »

    And that's supposed to be good for the format? "I'm not building a prison deck, but boy do I want to be able to lock one player out of the game if the opportunity arises."


    Who said it was good for the format? I entered into this thread to dispute her being a trap and an "accidental powerhouse" like your example of Sundering Titan. I think her and PS in the format simultaneously would be fine, but I'd also be fine with several of the banned cards in the format being let free. Back on topic, people ran Iona with the purpose of pain. They know what they did

    My only real beef is with an argument that hasn't really come up in this thread so I won't bring it in here.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    Quote from MRHblue »

    I dont think this is true. Many people play multicolors, and big costly angels seem cool and fun. Maybe after it ruins a few games people come around, but I can see for sure why new folks think it looks cool.


    Her effect is 100% up front. It's not like playing, say, white Crovax for fun as an anthem that's hard to kill but then you realize, uh oh, I didn't mean to totally lock out the saproling player! Locking out a color is pretty unambiguous.

    Quote from cryogen »

    In my experience, the Timmy use is to runnit as blue protection in your jank deck. Only sometimes the best line of play I'd to name a different color that hits more players. Or maybe it's just to lock that one person out who is ahead. And you know what happens when one person is handicapped in the game and the other opponents aren't? "Phew, good thing that card doesn't affect me and I don't have to expend resources dealing with it!"

    So yeah, it's a trap card, because the target audience isn't intentionally playing a prison deck, any more than they were playing MLD but still wanted to use Sundering Titam in order to keep ramp in check.


    How is a card doing exactly what it says a trap? Because trap cards are things that seem cool but are more detrimental to your game plan than you realize, like a Temple of the False God in a rock-heavy deck without land ramp.

    Also, the "target audience" of Iona is someone who wants to hit another player, possibly players, in the face with a brick. She does that very well. It's a big part of the reason why she just got banned. It's not that the Angels player wasn't playing prison; it's that they didn't need to play prison because they could just slot in an Iona and play her when they needed to make a sharp turn to prison town.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    While there's a bit of a Timmy element to Iona it's not a trap card. As nuts as, say, Paradox Engine is a new player could easily slot it into a deck just trying to generate value before realizing how east it is to break.

    Iona, on the other hand, is very up front about what she does. Even the Timmiest Timmy runs her to kick the mono colored decks in the groin. It's also not like Armageddon; land destruction is often followed by "now what?" Iona's "now what?" is beats.

    Of course there's a lot of people who justifiably don't want to worry about Iona showing up at the table. I don't blame them. But it's not a trap, it's not an accident, and treating it as such masks what it does. It's a hard control option on a stick, not a mythical Timmy-tricking boogeyman.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on July 2019 Ban List Update
    Quote from WizardMN »
    This decision is quite clearly something where the new CAG had its hand in. Which is good. But they are new and this is the first Banlist announcement where they were fully engaged (if I understand correctly). I don't believe for a second that PS and Iona were a "swap" ban. Iona was banned because she is obnoxious in this format and the CAG argued as such. And PS, as a ban, didn't really make sense in the context of the rest of the ban list (as JqlGirl has argued in this thread). That they happened to come off at the same time is likely more coincidental than anything. While I could see where not having Iona was certainly a point in PS's favor I don't believe Iona was banned solely because they wanted PS unbanned and the RC has definitely known of Iona for a long time and the feel bad moments she created. The CAG's input simply seems to have moved their thought of her to "over the line".


    First off PS, even though it shouldn't have been banned in the first place, was not unique in the context of the ban list. PS was banned for a being the enabler for Not Good Things with the kicker that the interactions going forward would only get worse. It's like Recurring Nightmare getting banned for enabling Not Good Things, except RN is comically difficult to deal with and justifiably banned. Now, the kicker of banning against future interactions was certainly unique, and bad, but PS was banned for being an enabler. And that's not unique.

    Next, the CAG supporting PS getting unbanned and Iona getting banned is the same thing. Iona was the biggest reason PS got banned in the first place. Putting her in the sin bin was the easiest path to getting PS unbanned. Ignoring this means you're also ignoring the vast majority of the "unban PS" conversation that's taken place online the past several years.

    Lastly, if the RC really did just happen to ban Iona independent of its decision to free PS, then their release doesn't reflect that. It's written as if Iona is a new card printed in the past year, and gosh they sure did want to give it a shot, but shucks, it didn't work out! The circumstances that were listed in the ban announcement have existed since the card's creation. You could even argue that she hasn't really gotten stronger; there aren't any new interactions with her that exacerbate the problem beyond, what, Helm of the Hosts? Was anyone doing that?

    Just say, "Hey, you know what? It's gone on long enough. Iona is a profound net negative for the format and we're done protecting her." Don't make it sound like you just discovered that cheating creatures into play is a thing.

    also bring back Banned as Commander new players aren't smooth brained babies they can understand the concept kthx
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on July 2019 Ban List Update
    Overall I'm pretty upset

    Paradox Engine getting banned is whatever; I didn't mind playing against it, never played with it, but it's such a casually strong card that I won't mourn it.

    Painter's Servant getting unbanned is good; it's another combo piece for a format full of them and won't break anything. I don't personally know many people who will just goof with it, which is a shame, but it's a neat card and I'm glad the people who will goof with it have a chance.

    Iona getting banned is annoying, but whatever--it's the silly reasoning given in the official post that has me steamed

    So you're telling me that after a decade of the card existing as it is it's now, just now, that the RC is all "well it turns out reanimator exists! how could we have forgotten??"

    Seriously people, y'all got convinced to unban PS (again, not a bad move!) and you didn't want to deal with it and Iona in the format simultaneously. I don't think having them both around is any more or less degenerate than a laundry list of things you can do, but that's neither here nor there. Y'all, as the RC, don't want to put up with that. And that's your prerogative. Just say as much.

    Don't give us a song and dance that makes you sound like you just realized that Iona exists; it's disingenuous. Just say you don't want Iona and PS in the format at the same time.

    hint: the format would be fine with both in it. Just like it would be fine with Gifts Ungiven back in it. It's not 2008 anymore. The stated intended audience for the ban list is not the group that gets wrecked by these cards. It's the 7/10 players who don't want to jump into cEDH but also don't want to derp around that don't want to put up with strong combo pieces and how semi-spikes play them.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    Quote from JqlGirl »
    but my own personal reasons for wanting Painter's Servant unbanned are because I felt that it was unfairly banned because it was a strong enabler rather than the dangerous part of any potential combo. No other cards are banned for this reason, so it was out of place on the ban list.


    I'm frowning very hard at this but at least you're open in your reasoning and I appreciate that
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Banlist
    welp

    Lost one of the better just-choke-the-hard-combo-player cards in Iona while watching those same decks get access to Painter's/Ugin because I know, like, one person that will actually be a goof with PS

    This is one of those moments where I realize that whoever has the ear of the RC plays with vastly different people than I do

    Not sad about Paradox Engine, though. I don't mind losing to it, I just mind people acting surprised that, wow, they won when they resolved PE, great job!!
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Omnispell Adept Commanderin' preview
    The spells aren't being cast at instant speed. The act of casting them is performed as the ability resolves. It's why Teferi forms a lockdown with Knowledge Pool. The spell is cast and put onto the stack as the ability resolves, not after it resolves.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Creeping Chill - SCG Twitter
    Quote from itazuranarisu »
    Quote from Fumar »
    Quote from Courier7 »
    Doom Whisperer + Lich's Mastery often equals "pay 2 life: exile the top 2 cards of your library"; adding Creeping Chill only turns it into "exile the top 2 cards of your library: deal 3 damage to each opponent". Doom Whisperer + Mark of the Vampire, however, equates to "surveil 2, then surveil 2, then surveil 2, then surveil 2" without any drawback.


    As long as you have 2 or 3 other cards in your graveyard at the start of the loop (which shouldn't be too hard with good support cards like Lazav, Search, and whatever other Surveil cards show up, you can make sure the Chills get exiled with the trigger and you get to draw 3 + deal 3 damage to an opponent.



    Good for a basically guaranteed 12 damage draw 12. Definitely could win the game in certain situations.


    You can't pay life you don't have. This is unchanged by being unable to lose the game.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Omnispell Adept Commanderin' preview
    Quote from orlouge82 »
    Quote from pierrebai »
    Does she really lift the sorcery-speed restriction? I assumed not.


    I would assume that you are correct, and that timing restrictions still apply to sorceries you cast. I guess we'll have to wait for the official ruling on this.


    If timing restrictions still applied then you wouldn't be able to cast sorceries at any time with it because you're casting the spell during the resolution of an ability.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on New Aurelia
    Quote from Empathogen »
    What I don't get is why is their such a hate boner against RW and Boros. Boros specifically and RW in general is just so pigeonholed into attack, attack, attack again.


    To be fair, Firesong and Sunspeaker were one of the most creative RW commanders we've ever seen.
    It's too bad they didn't save that design for this set.


    Dominaria also gave us Tiana, Ship's Caretaker. Both her and Les Minotaures were in a different context, however. Neither of them were members of a plane-wide police/army tasked with bopping people in the head. Boros bops people in the head. It's literally their job.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Guild Mechanics

    But "you don't design games for a living so your opinion doesn't count" is the dumbest possible reaction.


    Disagree. "This game aspect I haven't experienced yet is bad" is pretty far down there.

    Also I'm not even someone who voiced that opinion you're disparaging so go bark up someone else's tree with that.

    And I guarantee you won't ever say that to someone who praises cards, mechanics, etc.


    Why not? I've gotten into internet slapfights here over how little I like free mana mechanics in virtually every way they've been applied to the game. And plenty of people like at least one iteration of it or another.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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