Drawing 2 tron pieces and a map or three tron pieces. Tron pieces and maps make up over 1/4 of the deck. You will have 2 different tron pieces in your openeing hand hand about 25% of the time. Like I said, maybe I have just been lucky, but I have been getting tron by turn 3-5 consistently. I am going to test...
-4 solemn, -1 island, -1 tec edge
+2 rachet bomb, +2 ghost quarter, +1 batterskull, +1 academy ruins
I have been getting torn very reliably. I may be lucky, but expedition map and card draw have been enough. Solemn has not been amazing, but he never is. He has been solid, which he always is. He is ramp, a blocker, and card draw in one card. He could definitely be something else though. Basically, every card in the deck either generates card advantage or cycles (except maps). Even most lands generate virtual card advantage (tron, posts, eye).
Is there any good colorless card draw or ramp I am missing?
I love me some dread return into a million hasty zombies, but since I tried quadlazer I have not looked back. I used to think the same thoughts voiced on this page. It is the most consistent form of dredge there is. You play all the cards you want to see in your opener and all the cards in the engine. It explodes on turn one with LED and turn 2 without it. When you get a single narco and turn that into 2 cabal therapies on turn one or two, you limit your opponents options for the next turn. When you follow that the next turn with a couple Ichorids, another therapy, and some zombies, most decks just can't keep up with that.
Quadlazer can out-aggro aggro decks, out race combo decks using therapy to disrupt, and beat control decks with the inevitability of uncounterable threats every turn. By not having dread return and targets taking up space, it can run a board full of answers for whatever hate is available.
There was an excellent article written on it a week ago or so. There is a link to it on the bottom of one of the last few pages of the source dredge forums. If you have not actually played the list, give it a try. You will be impressed by its speed and consistency. Play vs opponents and you will see it has everything you need to win.
The lis above is solid for non-LED. I would switch 1 FKZ for a griselbrand for sure. I would also cut the 13th dredger (probably darkblast) for the 4th therapy. Therapy is an unbelievably powerful and versitile card in dredge. You don't need the 4th breakthrough imo.
I would run 4 force of wills before any pacts. It is one of best cards in legacy and in this deck it has upside on top of that (it has incredible synergy with griiffin). I would argue that the synergy with griffin might make misdirection better than pact as well.
I don't know if the 8 tutors are the way to go becaue it is alot of card disadvantage. You do not have much acceleration so i would see you tutoring/drawing the first couple turns while your opponent disrupts you or combos out. Your only defense vs opposing combo is 3 FOW. I would up your acceleration to at least 6 dorks so you can get a turn two three-drop reliably.
I would get rid of the wastelands. You are very vulnerable to wastelands yourself with nineteen lands and no basics. You need to get three lands into play. Trading wasteland for one of their lands will probably slow you down more than them most of the time. I would put in some basics.
You would need to have extra mana for those spells because the infinite mana can only be used on creatures. Maga or emrakul end the game as well and can be cast on the mana from griffin.
I guess this is the relevant thread for food chain/griffin combo. I agree that infinite life is not the best win condition for the reasons above. Here is my list...
// Lands
1 [ARC] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [B] Savannah
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ISD] Forest (1)
// Creatures
3 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
2 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARE] Coiling Oracle
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
2 [SC] Fierce Empath
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
// Spells
3 [JGC] Living Wish
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
SB: 1 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
The slot I am most unsure of main is kozilek. Harmonic Sliver and Kataki could go from the sb for other options. The deck has performed well so far. I think it is catching some people off guard though. It seems to be competetive, but not tier 1.
Thrun would be a pain but sword of feast and famine could make anybody hold him off. Tarmos are not a problem with spell snare, repeal, threads, and shackles. Punishing fires can be answered with surgical extraction. Tidehollow and volcanic fallout are not too scary. Phantasmal image or phyrexian metamorphs could be used for thrun in the sb.
What would be the best replacement for jitte? Something with recurring lifegain might be nice. I will try sword of war and peace for now.
It effectively runs 21 counters and can out control any other deck in the format. Remands, leaks, and shackles can come out for sprites, threads and jittes vs fast aggro decks. 23 spells in the deck can cantrip to keep gas in the engine. Are other colors really needed? My worst matchup in testing is bant aggro with geists.
The list I posted on the last page has the best chance of getting summoning. Ponder increases the chances of getting it turn 2. Architect is summoning 5-8 because the deck runs 20 artifact creatures. Casting superion has not been a problem at all and he is pretty goyf-like when you can cast him reliably.
Wurmcoil Engines have been real good for me. With 4 wurmcoils (plus 4 treasure mages to get them and 4 metamorphs to copy them) and 4 spellskites, the mono red match is pretty good. Control has not been to bad either due to the lack of day of judgements in their lists and the speed of my deck. On the play, they can't counter turn 2 summoning and mana leak quickly becomes inneffective for them when your creatures cost 2 less and you can tap all your creatures for mana (with architect).
This list has been testing well for me. I started with Chapin's heartless architect build from last week and tuned from there. Ponder is way better than sphere of suns in this deck for its ability to set up broken turn 2's by grabbing heartless summoning or superion/skite for turn 2. I removed the forgemaster combo and blightsteel and maxed out on wurmcoils and metamorphs. I have not regretted that either.
The sideboard is a bit of a mess. I like surgical extraction for solar flare to hit sun titan when they try to reanimate. Zenith and doom blade are for fast aggro, although this deck is pretty fast itself. The draw creatures are to help in control matches.
-4 solemn, -1 island, -1 tec edge
+2 rachet bomb, +2 ghost quarter, +1 batterskull, +1 academy ruins
Is there any good colorless card draw or ramp I am missing?
1 Mystifying Maze
4 Island
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
Creatures
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 All Is Dust
Planes walkers
4 Karn Liberated
Artifacts
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Expedition Map
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 All Is Dust
4 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Torpor Orb
Quadlazer can out-aggro aggro decks, out race combo decks using therapy to disrupt, and beat control decks with the inevitability of uncounterable threats every turn. By not having dread return and targets taking up space, it can run a board full of answers for whatever hate is available.
There was an excellent article written on it a week ago or so. There is a link to it on the bottom of one of the last few pages of the source dredge forums. If you have not actually played the list, give it a try. You will be impressed by its speed and consistency. Play vs opponents and you will see it has everything you need to win.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ISD] Forest (1)
2 [ARC] Island (1)
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
2 [SC] Fierce Empath
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
2 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [LRW] Mulldrifter
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [NE] Daze
2 [IN] Manipulate Fate
2 [M12] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
I don't know if the 8 tutors are the way to go becaue it is alot of card disadvantage. You do not have much acceleration so i would see you tutoring/drawing the first couple turns while your opponent disrupts you or combos out. Your only defense vs opposing combo is 3 FOW. I would up your acceleration to at least 6 dorks so you can get a turn two three-drop reliably.
I would get rid of the wastelands. You are very vulnerable to wastelands yourself with nineteen lands and no basics. You need to get three lands into play. Trading wasteland for one of their lands will probably slow you down more than them most of the time. I would put in some basics.
// Lands
1 [ARC] Island (1)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [B] Savannah
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ISD] Forest (1)
// Creatures
3 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
2 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARE] Coiling Oracle
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
2 [SC] Fierce Empath
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
// Spells
3 [JGC] Living Wish
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
SB: 1 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
The slot I am most unsure of main is kozilek. Harmonic Sliver and Kataki could go from the sb for other options. The deck has performed well so far. I think it is catching some people off guard though. It seems to be competetive, but not tier 1.
Thrun would be a pain but sword of feast and famine could make anybody hold him off. Tarmos are not a problem with spell snare, repeal, threads, and shackles. Punishing fires can be answered with surgical extraction. Tidehollow and volcanic fallout are not too scary. Phantasmal image or phyrexian metamorphs could be used for thrun in the sb.
What would be the best replacement for jitte? Something with recurring lifegain might be nice. I will try sword of war and peace for now.
// Lands
17 [CST] Island (1)
3 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
3 [MOR] Mutavault
// Creatures
4 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
// Spells
4 [9E] Sleight of Hand
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [M12] Mana Leak
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Tectonic Edge
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
It effectively runs 21 counters and can out control any other deck in the format. Remands, leaks, and shackles can come out for sprites, threads and jittes vs fast aggro decks. 23 spells in the deck can cantrip to keep gas in the engine. Are other colors really needed? My worst matchup in testing is bant aggro with geists.
Wurmcoil Engines have been real good for me. With 4 wurmcoils (plus 4 treasure mages to get them and 4 metamorphs to copy them) and 4 spellskites, the mono red match is pretty good. Control has not been to bad either due to the lack of day of judgements in their lists and the speed of my deck. On the play, they can't counter turn 2 summoning and mana leak quickly becomes inneffective for them when your creatures cost 2 less and you can tap all your creatures for mana (with architect).
The sideboard is a bit of a mess. I like surgical extraction for solar flare to hit sun titan when they try to reanimate. Zenith and doom blade are for fast aggro, although this deck is pretty fast itself. The draw creatures are to help in control matches.
// Lands
4 [SOM] Darkslick Shores
4 [M12] Drowned Catacomb
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
10 [CST] Island (1)
3 [M11] Swamp (3)
// Creatures
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Metamorph
4 [SOM] Grand Architect
4 [MBS] Treasure Mage
4 [M12] Solemn Simulacrum
4 [NPH] Myr Superion
4 [NPH] Spellskite
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
// Spells
4 [INN] Heartless Summoning
1 [SOM] Mindslaver
4 [M12] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [M12] Doom Blade
SB: 2 [MBS] Black Sun's Zenith
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Molten-Tail Masticore
SB: 3 [INN] Bloodgift Demon
SB: 1 [MBS] Consecrated Sphinx