I understand most of this thread is about arguing back and forth about what "<>" means.. but is there a summary of what peoples theories are so far on what "Menace" might do? I'd love to read them.
Flavor wise, and based on the artwork, I'd love it if the menace mechanic somehow effectively removed the sub-type of the defending opponent's basic lands somehow, effectively turning them into "Wastes".
Frankly, it's starting to seem a little silly how people can be so adamantly sure that Sol Ring isn't ruining anything when, so far as I know, I'm the only one in this discussion that has actually played in groups without it and experienced the difference it makes.
..playing a game were Sol Ring isn't cast on turn 1 or 2 is effectively the same as playing in a group that isn't running it. We've all experienced games without Sol Ring, and when Sol Ring is dropped early more often than not that players the first one dead, lol. It's all about that social contract, you wanna explode early? ..then you're playing 3+ vs 1. If they still win 3+ vs 1 it wasn't because of Sol Ring.
If people want to explode in the start and either go so far ahead that they end up playing archenemy, or drop something so big early that they practically guarantee an early win, they need to accept they will shed themselves in a negative light more often then not. My decks CAN play or be competitive and fast, but there are many times I hold back or don't drop my sol ring or mana crypt turn one. Why because I know I just painted a target on my head if I do and I'm here to have fun NOT win, so i'll hold it for a few turns if I can. If someone else explodes out of the start and I see no one else will adjust quick enough, I might then drop my manacrypt and catch up and attempt to not let the game end early, but that is rarely ever needed. The game is about having fun TOGETHER politically, not racking up wins.. I don't think enough people realize this.
If you play games with random people in stores, decks clearly wont be tuned for each other and some will be MUCH more competitive than others and the game tends to be about who can show off and rack up wins.. there actually IS a very fun fix to this that I've adopted. Break out a Planechase deck for the table to share and enjoy. Many people have never tried it but fall in love with it instantly, and the randomness of the various Planes and Phenomenons can cause the best decks to fall behind and the worst decks to jump ahead, even if the best deck gets better or the worse deck gets worse it happened on a random effect from a Plane and a lucky roll of the Planar Die. It makes everyone feel equal and the games can change drastically by chance and luck even if you are so far behind it is ridiculous. ALSO, the Planechase deck does a good job of giving you a chance to play for another turn or two even if you didn't topdeck an answer from your own deck.
TLDR: Play for fun not to win. If you're playing random people and decks are imbalanced (super casuals and super competitives) break out a Planechase deck for the table to share!
Do not play with players who don't like the way you want to play, then? Forcing everyone else to play your way when you are clearly in the minority is incredibly selfish.
Yeah just don't play with anyone because I want to run rofellos or primeval titan and everyone is basically forced to play with the base banlist.
Those were both unfortunate bans that I also don't agree with. However it is their format, it's not the end of the world, and you can remove them and move on? If you love those cards as much as I do, then you can make a French deck and compromise to THEIR format and lose cards like strip mine and sol ring.
I'm not even trying to run Stax or anything of the sort (though I played with the idea of Daretti stax). You just keep enforcing the idea that if you see something wrong with EDH, it means you're playing it the wrong way. It's incredibly reductive and short-sighted.
The RC has clearly laid out what they want for THEIR format, and enjoy playing it, Papa_Funk and Sheldon have both clearly spelled this out multiple times over and some people still can't grasp that?
I came to EDH to get away from the competitiveness and deck consistency in every other format. If stax and tuned combo were encouraged by the RC, and/or expected in random play groups I would stop playing EDH.
Infact, I am very elated that the RC is being so vocal on this subject and how they feel! Because now that the format is so popular, some people are wrongfully getting upset when playgroups shun or kick out such decks, and it is good to send the message that EDH/Commander is and always will stick to their core philosophy.
So we had a situation where the cost of killing it (a *small* bit of sadness at losing Rofellos) is less than the cost of having the extra rule around.
Oh Papa.. why oh why must you be only a little bit sad about our poor friend Roffelos!?
..you forced me to turn my Omnath EDH deck into a tiny leaders deck to keep my favorite little man around!
1) You have some ability to influence which of the random cards are being removed
or
2) You have some ability to generate value from the cards you removed
or
3) The removed cards matter because you're going to deck your oppoenent
4) Your opponent has the ability to tutor and now has a statistical disadvantage of still being able to get specific cards.
This is more relevant in EDH than Standard were cards are 1 ofs outside of basic lands and tutoring is heavily relied on for consistancy. Lets also not forget the huge amount of top deck manipulation used in the format. Sure basic statistics show for standard it is not as useful, but outside of that it is more game changing than not.
Against any deck that has the ability to tutor this mechanic instantly increases its usefulness for you apposed to helping your opponent. In a deck that tutors you do get the option to "play" all 53 cards and it is much less random.
Which is true but irrelevant considering my answer is aimed at the claim that:
"you can send the smaller "Ingesters" in to pull their top-deck. Your both removing threats to this guy, and increasing the chance land drops are missed, making that turn-6 and beyond land drop crucial".
..I'd much rather have a 50-50 chance at taking away a threat than no chance at all. You're removing options. Simple as that.
So it is completely relevant to say it is strictly better, and not the same in holdem, and the chance at removing threats is deffinitly better than none at all.. nothing like hold 'em unless you're counting only top deck.
Say you are playing Hold 'em and if you so choose you may remove the top 10 cards of the deck, would you do it?
The answer is that it doesn't matter whatsoever. Yo have no knowledge of the cards you are removing and therefore they are irrelevant. There are a TON of math and game-theory confirming this.
The difference here is in hold 'em you cant tutor for cards you want later on. Removing cards is strictly better in MTG as it removes potential threats that player would want to tutor for in the future. Sure it doesn't help anyone's statistics on their next random draw.. but it sure does help when it comes to attempting to dig for a specific card that now has a very real chance of no longer being available.
I will be shocked if this turns out to be one of Daniel Ljunggren's pieces. This is a very flat watercolor painting (he is primarily digital), the back waterfall doesn't look realistic at all. The edges on the landscape in the foreground are not clean.. I would be shocked if this was real. He pushes so much more contrast and depth than this, especially in his landscapes.
The art work like like a kid colored it. But, I actually love it. Gideon can finally protect himself with a token, and the final ability destroys lands, cool.
I really like the design. 4cmc to produce a token didn't stop xenagos from seeing play. And he can protect himself until he is able to wipe your opponents lands. But, yea, it's fake.
If you read the actual card and not OPs copy, you will see it says "nonland". This planeswalker would be terrible.
Flavor wise, and based on the artwork, I'd love it if the menace mechanic somehow effectively removed the sub-type of the defending opponent's basic lands somehow, effectively turning them into "Wastes".
..playing a game were Sol Ring isn't cast on turn 1 or 2 is effectively the same as playing in a group that isn't running it. We've all experienced games without Sol Ring, and when Sol Ring is dropped early more often than not that players the first one dead, lol. It's all about that social contract, you wanna explode early? ..then you're playing 3+ vs 1. If they still win 3+ vs 1 it wasn't because of Sol Ring.
If you play games with random people in stores, decks clearly wont be tuned for each other and some will be MUCH more competitive than others and the game tends to be about who can show off and rack up wins.. there actually IS a very fun fix to this that I've adopted. Break out a Planechase deck for the table to share and enjoy. Many people have never tried it but fall in love with it instantly, and the randomness of the various Planes and Phenomenons can cause the best decks to fall behind and the worst decks to jump ahead, even if the best deck gets better or the worse deck gets worse it happened on a random effect from a Plane and a lucky roll of the Planar Die. It makes everyone feel equal and the games can change drastically by chance and luck even if you are so far behind it is ridiculous. ALSO, the Planechase deck does a good job of giving you a chance to play for another turn or two even if you didn't topdeck an answer from your own deck.
TLDR: Play for fun not to win. If you're playing random people and decks are imbalanced (super casuals and super competitives) break out a Planechase deck for the table to share!
Those were both unfortunate bans that I also don't agree with. However it is their format, it's not the end of the world, and you can remove them and move on? If you love those cards as much as I do, then you can make a French deck and compromise to THEIR format and lose cards like strip mine and sol ring.
The RC has clearly laid out what they want for THEIR format, and enjoy playing it, Papa_Funk and Sheldon have both clearly spelled this out multiple times over and some people still can't grasp that?
I came to EDH to get away from the competitiveness and deck consistency in every other format. If stax and tuned combo were encouraged by the RC, and/or expected in random play groups I would stop playing EDH.
Infact, I am very elated that the RC is being so vocal on this subject and how they feel! Because now that the format is so popular, some people are wrongfully getting upset when playgroups shun or kick out such decks, and it is good to send the message that EDH/Commander is and always will stick to their core philosophy.
Only if you're someone trying to run a deck that is frowned upon by the majority of EDH/Commander players, aka Stax.
Oh Papa.. why oh why must you be only a little bit sad about our poor friend Roffelos!?
..you forced me to turn my Omnath EDH deck into a tiny leaders deck to keep my favorite little man around!
*cough* also unban Library of Alexandria *cough* *cough*
Yes it is. #FreeRofellos
4) Your opponent has the ability to tutor and now has a statistical disadvantage of still being able to get specific cards.
This is more relevant in EDH than Standard were cards are 1 ofs outside of basic lands and tutoring is heavily relied on for consistancy. Lets also not forget the huge amount of top deck manipulation used in the format. Sure basic statistics show for standard it is not as useful, but outside of that it is more game changing than not.
Against any deck that has the ability to tutor this mechanic instantly increases its usefulness for you apposed to helping your opponent. In a deck that tutors you do get the option to "play" all 53 cards and it is much less random.
No, part of the response you were quoting was:
So it is completely relevant to say it is strictly better, and not the same in holdem, and the chance at removing threats is deffinitly better than none at all.. nothing like hold 'em unless you're counting only top deck.
This card will be used in more formats than standard, it will be particularly relevant in EDH.
The difference here is in hold 'em you cant tutor for cards you want later on. Removing cards is strictly better in MTG as it removes potential threats that player would want to tutor for in the future. Sure it doesn't help anyone's statistics on their next random draw.. but it sure does help when it comes to attempting to dig for a specific card that now has a very real chance of no longer being available.
If you read the actual card and not OPs copy, you will see it says "nonland". This planeswalker would be terrible.
My guess is Blinding Angel (same eyes and glowing sword), but I'd really like to see an alt art of Gisela, Blade of Goldnight in this collection!
Rats, I hope there is a chance to get foils, even if its what they did for the Helvault.. the alt art on Ugin is too gorgeous not to be in foil.