Another point to make comparing Pioneer Devotion to Modern Devotion is the relevance of Nissa, Who Shakes the World. She's generally slow for modern, and we don't often have all that many forests down early. Pioneer gives her time to shine and the inclusion of Once Upon a Time as land/creature search means that we'll generally have more lands on the battlefield in Pioneer. I do agree that the prevalence of early burn for t1 mana dorks in Modern is what largely kept Leyline of Abundance from taking off. I tried several Leyline builds in modern and none of them were as resilient as the traditional manabase. If you haven't found a leyline by t3, all you've got is a big pile of dorks that can't win.
What do you mean Pioneer gives her time to shine? She's coming out T2, T3 at latest, and people are just dead almost immediately afterwards. The Sam Black article was very interesting, and I pointed it out to Alex from the Masters of Modern podcast, bc he has been wondering since Pioneer kicked off w/so many results for Mono-Green on whether a build similar to that could work in Modern. Sam's list looks solid, the question becomes which enablers and which topend are the way to build. We certainly have lots of options available.
What do you mean “moved to Legacy”? All the cards in Modern are already in Legacy. And yes, I’m not surprised shops are happy with Pioneer, I could imagine it could be good for business.
I CAN’T imagine Pioneer will be a better format than Modern though.
I guess what i mean is they will cut the modern term as a break point, so it will be Legacy, Pioneer, standard... No modern means all the cards in modern will shift to only being played in legacy (which is mostly none of them)
None of what you are saying makes any sense. Legacy is the harder format for people to buy into and find enough people to fire events (outside of MTGO). Modern is still everywhere and WotC was pretty clear in the announcement of Pioneer, it will continue to be. Expect to see less and less of Legacy, and more Modern and Pioneer. It doesn't help matters for them that Standard has become a complete crapfest, helping drive people to other formats. Legacy will not be one of those formats.
I like playing Infect. To play Legacy Infect optimally, I need a playset of Tropical Forests, and Force of Wills, not to mention if Oko and OUaT are in the current meta version of the deck. Trops in HP are ~215 on average on TCG right now, and a set of Force is around $250 on there as well. Sooo....over a grand on top of already owning the rest of the deck, just the Legacy specific cards. Decks with the current 4C Delver builds are even more, especially if you are lacking some of the top end Modern legal things like W6 and Oko.
@CrypticCommander:
I havent read the last few pages, but mtgs is apperently shutting down early july, are you going to write the primer for the new site?
@SSquirrel:
Back in the day, when shadow was first released it saw a little play, but most of the time the card was just win more. It can lead to some Gotcha games, but most of the time the card either doesnt do anything, or you are winning anyway.
That's understandable, however the format is far faster than it was at that time. Just thinking a more combo focused version to end the game first might not be the worst idea.
Has anyone considered Shadow of the Grave in a Jund Loam build to give you the option of lots of face damage or lots of Bears? Pitch a few lands, shadows them back, pitch some more, all EOT.
Bc there's no better alternative in the decks that do run it. Other decks don't need them like the decks that do run them. And those that run them won't be running enough of them for it to make that significant of a difference in how fast we can count to 20. If all the decks ran them as a 4 of along side fetches and what not then I'd agree but I see most decks that will use them using them as a 2 of or at best a 3 of. The only decks I see running them as a set are alrdy running a set of canopy and then possibly b/x/x shadow decks to help drop their life total. Otherwise Phoenix doesn't rly need them due to the fact that their deck is cantrips. Storm won't for same reason. Tron won't most likely. Humans might but they need the rainbow lands more. Control decks might but they've got better options to spend resources on to dig/manipulate/etc. Hardened scales probably won't bc they don't rly need it. I don't see infect needing them when they can now win on turn 2 thanks to scale up. B/g/x probably will as a 4 of. But pls feel free to enlighten me bc I don't know everything. This is just my thoughts on it.
So which is it? Do only 3 decks run Canopy or were you just completely wrong? The numbers show you were wrong.
People run Canopy bc they want card draw and have access to white or green mana. Now everyone can get access to these lands and you think they won’t see much play? That’s a dream.
I think you're over estimating how many people will be running those lands and if they are they're probably not running them in a full playset. Right now there's only what three Decks that run Horizon canopy?
According to MTGGoldfish, Horizon Canopy is the 9th most played land in the format.
Yeah someone in a FB group was pissed it can't target players and I was just like..uhm do you really think they want Burn having a spell that says "tap R, Lava Axe you"? It's like the folks who were bucking for us to get Price of Progress in this set, I mean really? If the goal is to destroy the openness of the format then sure, print away.
me being an ******** (I've tried toning it down over time)
Just to hit this real quick, we definitely didn't get along well at all it seemed early on, but I would agree you have toned some things down and while there are still plenty of times we don't agree on things, things are way better than before
That said, I don't think that reddit is a good solution for things like primers. My vote would be keep it going on whatever new replacement they come up with, but yeah. You can't avoid the stupid people anywhere you go. I'm one of the mods in the Masters of Modern FB group and while most of the time it's fine, sometimes there are definitely folks who will get under your skin. Keep doing what you're doing man, the Burn primer is one of the best ones out here and it's a sad thing that this place is being written off.
Or this is what Burn needed to push the deck toward being mono-colored in Modern. Lavamancers back in the main to help make sure Spectacle is always an option. A full dozen fetches and 7 Mountains. Also lets us side into being a Blood Moon deck for the matches that that is really brutal.
What do you mean Pioneer gives her time to shine? She's coming out T2, T3 at latest, and people are just dead almost immediately afterwards. The Sam Black article was very interesting, and I pointed it out to Alex from the Masters of Modern podcast, bc he has been wondering since Pioneer kicked off w/so many results for Mono-Green on whether a build similar to that could work in Modern. Sam's list looks solid, the question becomes which enablers and which topend are the way to build. We certainly have lots of options available.
None of what you are saying makes any sense. Legacy is the harder format for people to buy into and find enough people to fire events (outside of MTGO). Modern is still everywhere and WotC was pretty clear in the announcement of Pioneer, it will continue to be. Expect to see less and less of Legacy, and more Modern and Pioneer. It doesn't help matters for them that Standard has become a complete crapfest, helping drive people to other formats. Legacy will not be one of those formats.
I like playing Infect. To play Legacy Infect optimally, I need a playset of Tropical Forests, and Force of Wills, not to mention if Oko and OUaT are in the current meta version of the deck. Trops in HP are ~215 on average on TCG right now, and a set of Force is around $250 on there as well. Sooo....over a grand on top of already owning the rest of the deck, just the Legacy specific cards. Decks with the current 4C Delver builds are even more, especially if you are lacking some of the top end Modern legal things like W6 and Oko.
They worked out a deal to keep it open
That's understandable, however the format is far faster than it was at that time. Just thinking a more combo focused version to end the game first might not be the worst idea.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/49778-a-new-and-exciting-beginning
Site now NOT shutting down.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/articles/49778-a-new-and-exciting-beginning
So which is it? Do only 3 decks run Canopy or were you just completely wrong? The numbers show you were wrong.
People run Canopy bc they want card draw and have access to white or green mana. Now everyone can get access to these lands and you think they won’t see much play? That’s a dream.
According to MTGGoldfish, Horizon Canopy is the 9th most played land in the format.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern
Island, Mountain, Forest, Flooded Strand, Bloodstained Mire, Field of Ruin, Wooded Foothills, Scalding Tarn, Horizon Canopy, Cavern of Souls.
3 Basics
4 fetches
Field of Ruin
Those are the only lands played more than Horizon Canopy.
Just to hit this real quick, we definitely didn't get along well at all it seemed early on, but I would agree you have toned some things down and while there are still plenty of times we don't agree on things, things are way better than before
That said, I don't think that reddit is a good solution for things like primers. My vote would be keep it going on whatever new replacement they come up with, but yeah. You can't avoid the stupid people anywhere you go. I'm one of the mods in the Masters of Modern FB group and while most of the time it's fine, sometimes there are definitely folks who will get under your skin. Keep doing what you're doing man, the Burn primer is one of the best ones out here and it's a sad thing that this place is being written off.
23-Bolt Burn
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells: 27
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
3 Shard Volley
4 Bump in the Night
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
3 Mountain
4 Blood Moon
4 Searing Blood
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells: 27
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
4 Shard Volley
3 Skullcrack
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
7 Mountain
4 Blood Moon
4 Searing Blood
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Exquisite Firecraft
Thoughts?
Skewer the Critics
2R Sorcery Common
Spectacle R
Deal 3 damage to any target
I would say yes, yes it is.