MTG Salvation

Thanks for the detailed responses! I had forgotten that Pia and Kiran Nalaar could sacrifice Zada with Darksteel Mutation. Also, your ideas to copy Zada with Heat Shimmer/Twinflame are things I had not considered.

As far as Spikeshot Elder, I was thinking of him more in terms of pumping him once and then shooting Zada after she had been stolen.

I'm hoping to acquire Kari Zev's Expertise, so that would enable me to steal Zada back for a turn. I do have an extra Reforge the Soul and a Swiftfoot Boots hanging around that I'll consider as well.

Right now, I'm thinking that Mirrorwing Dragon and Sarkhan's Triumph to give me a second card to find him might be my best bet without disrupting the deck too much.

...or I can just start playing Knowledge Pool as a retaliation for when I can't get Zada back. That would even the playing field again.

Thanks for the card suggestions and the thoughts. I also found Despotic Scepter, which looks like it could be even better than Claws of Gix since it can hit any permanent I own regardless of whether the opponent currently controls it or not.

Jaya Ballard is my main deck and I only pull Zada out on rare occasions to switch things up. Last spring, I only played Zada in 3 or 4 games. We don't play over the summer, so today was my first time playing Zada since last April. I only played Zada for one game tonight and it was against 4 other players that I had never played against prior to tonight, so it's unlikely they were trying to "send a message." Honestly, if they wanted to send a message to anyone, it would have been to the Brago deck that utterly crushed the table both times. I actually pulled Zada out for the second game specifically to try to combat his deck, but cast Imprisoned in the Moon on turn 4 right after I cast Zada.

Zada has a big target on her head. I don't mind it when she gets killed, but it seems like every time I play she's either stolen or gets Imprisoned in the Moon. Without her, the deck is extraordinarily weak and not much fun to play. As such, I'm trying to figure out what kind of outs are available.

How do you handle it when Zada gets stolen?
How do you handle it when Zada is gets transformed by Lignify or [c]Darksteel Mutation[c]?
What about when she gets Imprisoned in the Moon or hit by Song of the Dryads?

I have a couple outs to kill her off when stolen or lignified (Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Spikeshot Elder/Goblin Matron), but I'm not sure if that's enough. Homeward Path is another option verses theft, but I'm still trying to keep this deck's budget as low as possible. I considered something like Red Elemental Blast since most of my trouble has been against blue players, but that doesn't handle Darksteel Mutation or Song of the Dryads. Playing Claws of Gix gives an out, but it doesn't really fit our game plan. I could throw in Akki Avalanchers or Devastating Summons or Hammer of Purphoros to combat Imprisoned on the Moon/Song of Dryads, but they still don't handle Darksteel Mutation. Are any of these cards worth trying?

I'm starting to wonder if the best plan is a back-up plan a la Mirrorwing Dragon/Sarkhan's Triumph.

Any suggestions on these issues would be greatly appreciated.

I personally think Journeyer's Kite is too mana intensive. Analyzing it solely for card advantage, it's 5 mana just to break even with a land card the turn you drop it. That means 8 mana = +1 CA, 11 mana = +2 CA, 14 mana = +3 CA, 17 mana = +4 CA, 20 mana = +5 CA. In other words, if you manage use it every turn for 6 turns (counting the turn you dropped it), it costs 4 mana per card. Compare that to the phoenixes (i.e., Firewing Phoenix, Shard Phoenix, Skarrgan Firebird). Each of these costs 3-4 mana for +1 CA to get back after discarding it with Jaya and it gives you that value the first time without having to commit a ton of mana. Plus, the phoenixes have the added utility of being a flying blockers or a Loxodon Warhammer wielding threats. Just about every card draw engine worth considering in this deck is going to do better than Journeyer's Kite, e.g., Mind's Eye, Staff of Nin, Endbringer, and Outpost Siege. Not only do these require less mana investment, some of them have further utility stapled on.

Now, I understand that Journeyer's Kite also helps you hit land drops, so the mana investment I listed above could be offset by how many times it makes you hit a land drop you would have missed. But straight up card draw also helps you hit land drops, albeit less consistently, AND allows you to draw more gas. If my goal is hitting land drops, I'm going to go for cards that boost me incrementally early game for less mana; cards like Armillary Sphere, Wild-Field Scarecrow, or Burnished Hart. Armillary Sphere costs 4 mana for +1 CA and ensures I hit an extra land drop. Compare that to 8 mana from Journeyer's Kite, which means you have to commit at least 11 mana before Journeyer's Kite can be construed as outperforming Armillary Sphere and it's pals.

In my opinion, Journeyer's Kite is in an awkward spot. It's mana intensive to the point that it's bad card draw and it's bad ramp. It's only good if you need a card to fill both of those rolls. Does that happen? Yes, it does. Does that happen enough that I'll put a card that needs 15 mana invested before it outperforms the other cards I could put in? Probably not.

Heartless Hidetsugu won me a game tonight in combination with Glacial Chasm. I originally slotted him in on a whim, but I've come to greatly enjoy having him in the deck. I typically use him as a back-up Jaya. He doesn't clear the battlefield of creatures, but he generally reduces life totals faster and he doesn't cost 7 mana plus a card to use. Everyone on the table freaks out when he hits the table, so he often doesn't live long, but he always has the potential to make a big impact (especially if you have a haste enabler in play). Plus, if you're not going to win anyway, he helps shorten the game so you can play again sooner.

I don't play with the goal of doubling damage to insta-kill the table, but I do have Gratuitous Violence in the deck. He also works well with many of the cards I use to synergize with Jaya: Glacial Chasm, Loxodon Warhammer, and Sun Droplet

If you're running a budget deck with some of the cards I've listed, I'd definitely give him a second look. Even if you're running a higher end deck, he might be a fun addition for something different.

EDIT: Pyrohemia also fills a similar roll and is another card I would highly recommend.

Quote from WrenchMind »

I have got another question for y'all: do you think that is a good idea to run maybe a Rhonas the Indomitable and a Bow of Nylea in main deck? And what are your thoughts about Nature's Way as a removal?

I'd suggest you read through the thread (or give the search a try, though I've often found it to be lacking on this forum). Nearly all of the cards you're asking about have been discussed. As far as those three cards, some like them and some don't. I don't think there is a general consensus on them at this time.

I recommend leaving Heroic Intervention in the sideboard. Bring it in against anyone playing sweepers. Consider Blossoming Defense, which gives a pump and protection from spot removal.

Also, 18 land is probably too low since you're running four 3-drops and a 4-drop.

Thoughts on Strionic Resonator? Or Mirrorwing Dragon and/or Radiate as a back-up for Zada?

No, I don't have the arcane package in my deck.

This is pretty close to what I'm using:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/636797-zada-grinding-up-an-arcane-storm?comment=389

Thanks for the response! It was quite helpful. Keep in mind I'm running an ultra-budget list, so many cards I consider might not make the cut on your list, might still make it onto mine.

Quote from DementedKirby »

• Geosurge: Read it carefully. You can only use it to cast artifacts and creatures with it.

Doh! And I was so excited about that card.

Are Seething Song or Infernal Plunge even worth considering in its place?

Now that I've played some games with Zada and have a better feel for how the deck operates, I'm starting to re-evaluate some of the cards on my "maybe" list and I'd appreciate some feedback from those who are more experienced with the deck than myself.

Descent of the Dragons/Hellion Eruption - Are these worth considering? I originally thought they'd be great finishers, but the more I look at them, the less I like them. Assuming your creatures are all 1/1's, Hellion Eruption is no better than any +3 pump (e.g., Brute Force) and you'll need to follow up with a haste spell or they can't attack this turn. Descent of the Dragons give evasion, but it still costs 4-5 mana more than a basic pump spell, many of which give trample. I guess they could serve as "abort switches" allowing you to keep all the copies generated by Twinflame or Heat Shimmer, but how often would you have the mana to use them in that case?

Rituals
Treasonous Ogre - Typically, you're not going to drop this guy before you drop Zada. That means you'll most likely be going off when you draw him. Since he costs 4 mana, you're looking at 12 life invested before you break even, so 15 life for 1 net mana gain, 18 life for 2 net mana gain, 21 life for 3 net mana gain, etc. That doesn't seem like a great investment rate.

Thermopod - Similar argument to above. Thermopod costs 5 creatures before it breaks even on mana. I currently have this in my deck, but it is by far the weakest of my rituals. Whether this or Treasonous Ogre is better depends on your board state and health.

Dragonrage - Does anyone run this? It looks great for generating mana, but only doing it during the attack phase means you're limited to instants at that point. If you're already swinging, this is only helpful to push the attack over the edge if it was borderline whether you could kill everyone.

Geosurge - Comparing this to Thermopod and Treasonous Ogre, I'm starting to think this is the best of the three. Geosurge gives a net of 3 mana with no drawback. That's an equivalent cost of 21 life with Treasonous Ogre and 8 creatures with Thermopod. Granted, both have a higher mana ceiling, but Geosurge is basically no risk/cost, whereas the others can take a heavy toll on life or board state.

Am I missing anything on these cards or is that a pretty fair evaluation of each?

Quote from thatmarkguy »

If your Avatar doesn't land as at least a 4/3 you're doing it wrong.

By the time the stack clears after you've played a 3-mana 5/5 creature, your t1 experiment one is likely 4/4 as well.

Your meta must not play much in the way of removal. My Experiment One almost never gets more than one counter on it before getting bolted, pathed, or pushed. If my avatar does land with +1's on it, it's generally the next one to die.

After reading through the thread, I've begun building my deck starting with instants and sorceries. I noticed a number of lists running Violent Eruption in the 4CMC spot. I'm slightly confused by this as I've seen almost no mention of its lower CMC analogs: Flames of the Firebrand and Arc Lightning. Even Forked Bolt and Arc Trail are rarely included. Is the sorcery speed of these four spells what makes them unplayable or is there something else I'm missing?

Being in the 4CMC slot, Violent Eruption also competes with the deck's finishers, but if it's being used primarily as a finisher Flame Javelin, Char, and Exquisite Firecraft do the same amount of damage for less mana.

Also, do either of these cards have merit?
Lash Out - Clears out creatures just as well as Searing Spear with the possibility of also blasting your opponent. I did that math and its about a 1 in 3 chance of winning the clash, so on average this is 4 damage for 2 mana.
Downhill Charge - This combined with Ball Lightning or unblocked Hero of Oxid Ridge could easily close out the game. Obviously, this is better in the creature-centric builds than the burn-centric ones.

Thanks for the response!

Out of curiosity: If life totals started at 30, how would that impact Zurgo's effectiveness? Would the increased life totals make Zo-Zu more viable?

I've had the PureMTGO version of the first post ("So You Want to Play Red in Commander?") saved as a favorite since 2014, but I somehow completely missed this thread until now. I'm a mono-red player from the days of Revised and 4th Edition, but I sold my collection over a decade ago. I started up again in 2014, casually playing multiplayer EDH/Commander. I picked up Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs, Jaya Ballard, Task Mage, and Zo-Zu the Punisher as commanders, but before Zo-Zu ever hit the table I learned that punisher style decks are liable to get hated off the table, so Zo-Zu remains unplayed to this day. However, 3drinks' PureMTGO article inspired me to gradually accumulate cards for a Duel/French Commander Zo-Zu deck.

I noticed that this thread appears to have moved on from Zo-Zu to Zurgo Bellstriker. Are Zo-Zu decks still open for discussion here? (I greatly appreciate that the Zo-Zu decklist is still retained in the first post.)

Also, I'm an ultra-budget player. I never spend more than 50 cents on a single card for EDH/Commander, but I'd be interested in attempting to generate the most effective 1v1 Zo-Zu decklist possible within that constraint if those on this thread would be willing to advise me at that level. (I don't want to disrupt this thread if that would be inappropriate.)