MTG Salvation

I haven't seen people cut missionary for cleric, that seems like a mistake. I think cleric is still good enough to merit 1-2 copies in the main as dodging exile is pretty nice and it gives us some decent game vs storm, phoenix, dredge, etc. Right now I'm wondering if I even want to change my current list because I've been doing pretty well even though I teched for Hogaak and never actually faced it.

Yeah, that's a good point, I agree. But also anyone who leaves for another forum is a traitor

I see no reason to switch over. Splitting the community is just bad in general. Wherever we are, ideally we want to all be in the same place, so we can have the most discussion and have less chance of our thread having dry spells. The best way to do that is to just stay here.

I just noticed and found it funny that your signature says "Want to play a control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?" and I come barging in toting my 3 Jace build all like "Jace is the way forward, my children"

@Starstorm, I'd recommend you try testing with Jace in your list on something like XMage or Cockatrice before you make that investment, as you're right it is a large one. I've played just about every blue control deck in the format so I had Jaces lying around already and decided to try him out. And while watcher for tomorrow certainly is a neat effect, I'm not much more aggressive than the normal build. The walls also give the card right away which is critical for keeping 2 landers with a wall (those usually work out). Also the walls block most things and the life you effectively gain from that in certain matchups is pretty great. If I were to run another card draw creature like Wall, it would be the Court Hussars which are fairly typical of UW builds, and they certainly wouldn't replace wall.

Dovin's Veto has been pretty darn good, actually. It, along with the Revokers, Clerics, and sometimes Gideon makes game 1 vs combo actually winnable, which is fairly impressive considering all of those cards are still great in non-combo matchups. Veto is such an upgrade over negate because being able to just hard "nope" a control player without them being able to retaliate is a great feeling. Force of Negation isn't sustainable in this deck as my blue card count is only 8. Not nearly enough to even support even a measly 1-2 FoN, let alone any additional copies. Even if you're not using it in those scenarios, just having that axis of interaction really protects your gameplan. We all know how annoying getting Sun Titan PtE'd is. Veto at least assists in that regard, which is fine in my book.

Lastly, second island is only useful when: I draw 2 Field of Ruins, a Jace, and no blue sources before turn 6 (since that's the earliest I could cast Jace using FoR islands), when I'm getting Field of Ruin'd to death and I need to cast a Jace, or when there's a Blood Moon out and [insert over-complicated scenario]. I think everyone gets the point lol

About the sideboard, Grafdigger's cage isn't just grave hate, it's hate for Neoform and coco decks too. The other thing is RIP stops all graveyard shenanigans on our side, whereas Grafdigger's cage still allows Sun Titan to bring back everything except for creatures. That means you can keep bringing back your Tormod's Crypts or Teferi. For example, I've had people play cage against me and have it not matter because bringing back PWs or even just a 6/6 with vigilance with no other text is still just good enough to beat people. Crucible comes in whenever the opponent is playing Field of Ruin, Tron, and sometimes it comes in against control decks that aren't running Fields, just because the value is really great. It's been relegated to the sb because while the card is a #WALUE machine, in a not-negligible number of matchups, it's not going to matter, and in some, it'll get you killed. In addition, it was hard to make space for the card. It and a single Detention Sphere were in the mainboard up until the final revision before I first took the deck for a spin, actually.

I do have a quick question for you, though. You said I have Hex Parasite in the side but that was someone else's list. You said you play it main. What matchups is it good against?


@coffeeortea27, I considered picking up some Ranger Captain of Eos for the deck, but whenever I'm tinkering with any Emeria build, I'm very hesitant to ever include Thraben Inspector. I don't see the card as having much inherent value to it and it usually takes away card slots from core cards that, while costing an additional mana or two, are much more useful to the gameplan. As for Ranger-Captain himself, I've only ever been a fan of Silence effects in combo decks who are looking to stifle interaction from the opponent. Trying to use this kind of effect during the opponent's upkeep is usually going to do nothing, unfortunately. Using some examples, the sac effect doesn't actually stop Scapeshift as they'll just play a Prime Time or any of their other creatures. Tron plays less creatures, but the same thing applies, and you have to be on the play in addition to hoping they don't have Wurmcoil or World Breaker for it to work. The big reason these decks play Ranger-Captain is because they're fetching up 1 mana 12/12s or it triggers their Thalia's Lieutenants twice while providing some card advantage. The sacrifice ability is just icing on the cake, usually. I'm also not convinced that playing Kami is a good idea, either. The only 1-drop that seems good enough in my opinion is Giver of Runes and I'm still not entirely sold on her. But hey, I'm hoping to be surprised, so if you make it work, we'd all love to hear about it. Now to finish, the card is gonna be awesome for MartyrProc, so I wish you luck with that one. I may even play that deck again sometime (UW with Sky Hussar of course).


@The Fluff, I didn't even realize you were the primer maintainer :D. I'm definitely cool with my report being on the primer, though I'm not sure how that one became the impetus for the new section. I'll tell you what, next time I get out for modern, I'll take notes and make a proper report for you guys.


Now I really want to play this list again and see what results I can put up, but my shop is doing prerelease on Friday so no Modern. There's a shop I could play at this evening, but I'm not sure I'll have time, sadly. I first put this specific list together not really expecting much, but it's blown me away a bit, and actually renewed my faith in modern a little bit, since I think we've all seen what the format has become these days. Hopefully this isn't just a flash in the pan and I can actually pump out some good records regularly, because I won't lie to you guys, curving creatures into Jace and putting the hurt on people is awesome and I hope to keep doing it for a while.

Alright I'm gonna try and answer some questions and possibly do a write-up from last night. Went 3-2 sadly but the final round was super duper close vs UR phoenix and it could have easily been 4-1, possibly with some different sideboarding choices. Also let's be honest, losing to Urza combo doesn't count Anyhoo, list first.


Only changes to the mainboard include -2 basics and -1 Delta for +2 Heath and +1 Fountain. I was meaning to put in a Wrath of God instead of a third verdict but I didn't have time to go home between work and magic. This actually smoothed out my blue mana issues fairly nicely, but still a small sample size so we'll see. I never had 4 mana, Jace in hand, and no double blue like I did on Friday. Speaking of Jace, I'm liking him more and more, but more on that later.

As far as the sideboard is concerned, -2 Revival, -1 EE, -1 Timely, +2 Winds, +2 Gift. I only got to use Generous Gift once but it killed a rest in peace so that's nice haha. Generous Gift actually seems like it's really good for our deck. I understand a lot of people play Detention Sphere for the obvious benefits like flickering and such, but what I really wanted was a more permanent answer to problematic permanents, specifically planeswalkers and RIP/Leyline occasionally. In the control mirror you can sit around with a sphere on one of their walkers for basically ever but eventually it's going to get cryptic bounced or Teferi bounced or Teferi tucked or something of the like and then it's going to reset their Narset, or their Teferi is back, whatever the case it's not ideal. Winds of Abandon was actually really nice to have, even though I never got to use the overload cost. Just having access to two more exile effects is great vs matchups like phoenix and goyf decks and such, but the one sided board wipe does seem to be strong since we're getting to 6 mana usually anyway.

Alright, to address some questions/concerns people have, @The Fluff, I've been extremely hesitant to add the second basic island for the reason that 5 non-white-producing lands is already pushing it in a deck that runs lots of early double white costs, and having the one island is awkward enough. If I come across a scenario where I'm thinking "Man, I wish I had a second basic Island right now" I'll let you know though. @Starstorm, Jace has honestly over-performed and impressed me both times I've played the deck. The nice thing about him in this deck is that he's quite a bit more than a brainstorm bot, which don't get me wrong, is nice, but since we're regularly pushing damage, just bouncing their blocker for a couple turns has been pretty good. It came in handy vs neoform when his griselbrand was revoker'd and I needed a way to remove it, as well as vs phoenix to reset Thing, much like Flickerwisp would. His +2 also becomes a bit more relevant in the mid-game than it would in a more draw-go style deck, because if you're in a position where you're the beatdown, Jace can keep them off any answers to your threats. The other thing is that remember that Jace (and Teferi for that matter) can bounce your own creatures. There are always going to be situations where brainstorming may not get you out of a jam, but replaying your Lone Missionary or another creature will. I've yet to use Jace's ult to close out a game with this deck, but I'm sure the time will come eventually. And lastly, I don't think I need to explain why brainstorming is good lol.

Really quick, I'd like to say again that this list is nowhere near complete or tuned or whatever, and if you guys have any ideas, things you like, things you don't, please let me know.

I'm gonna try to make a write-up from memory so here goes:
Round 1 - 5c Allies - 2-0
Opponent is basically playing faster humans with less disruption. Game 1 he hit me super hard but I played a wall and followed it up with Teferi bouncing one of his two creatures. A turn or two later I cast a verdict at instant speed when he goes to combat. Follow up with a titan, game over. Game 2 was pretty much identical except I played turn 3 Teferi and turn 4 verdict at which point he correctly realized he was dead and scooped a couple turns later.

Round 2 - Dredge - 2-1
Game 1 - I keep a hand of lands, Teferi, and verdicts. He vomits his deck into his grave. I concede.
Game 2 - I keep a hand with Remorseful Cleric and Tormod's Crypt. I play a land and pass, he discards some dredgers, next turn I play Crypt and use it, play Cleric, you can guess how the rest went when I eventually played a Sun Titan with Jace on board and Clerics in the grave.
Game 3 - He mulligans down to 4 and I'm sitting on multiple pieces of grave hate. He tries putting stuff in the graveyard and I just keep exiling it, it wasn't much of a game tbh lol

Round 3 - Urza Combo - 0-2
Game 1 - Screw this deck lol, I play cleric on 2 instead of holding up Veto and he plays opal and foundry. If i held up Veto he was going to play a goblin instead. His turn 3 he plays gobbo boi and puts a sword in the yard and makes a token, I exile his grave in response, forgot he has an opal sitting off to the side. I concede.
Game 2 - I keep a hand with stony silence and something else and the stony stayed in my hand all game because it literally did nothing. I lost to double Sai followed by urza. I can't effectively put into words how much I hated living while playing against this deck.

Round 4 - CopyCat - 2-0
Game 1 - He keeps triple path, Saheeli, Felidar Guardian. I keep some aggressive creatures and some lands, he paths stuff, I play a 2 drop on turn 3, holding up veto which he ran saheeli right into and he slowly figured out he was super dead when he found out what my deck does (which is reanimating revoker on saheeli).
Game 2 - Revoker, Gideon, Teferi, and later, Jace. At one point I was able to play a revoker with path up and he bolts revoker and goes for the win, I stop him. This one went on long, but later after Teferi got surgicalled and when I had Gideon and Jace out, the game was kinda over. At one point I chose not to swing with Gideon when he was at 3 (I thought he was at 7 actually), prompting him to say "You chose to just not attack for lethal?" to which I respond, "I have a Jace, I can do whatever I want" and to which someone else says "I mean, he's got a point." Turns out he had a path anyway so my play of just playing Flickerwisp and shutting off his Colonnade turned out to be correct. To be fair, I likely would have done the same no matter his life total, as I'm a super defensive player and this was the first turn I didn't have Teferi protecting Gideon (which is a sick combo btw).

Round 5 - UR Phoenix - 1-2
This is the same Phoenix player who got completely rekt 2-0 last Friday when I flickered his Aria of Flame 3 times in game 1.
Game 1 - I don't really remember what happened, I just know I lost after a fairly long game. Though I do remember him looting away Aria of Flame on turn 2 lol
Game 2 - I just remember this being a super long game where neither of us did anything for like 5 turns each in the middle of the game because I kept exiling all his creatures and we just drew garbage for a while. I think I eventually got to start bouncing Flickerwisp with Teferi and then flickering Teferi every turn, which is pretty sick actually.
Game 3 - He just does Phoenix things and makes two of them on turn 2, I path one. I play a tapland on turn 2, he makes a third phoenix, I draw my third land on turn 4 and never get to 4 mana, but it was still extremely close with me almost stabilizing at 3 life.

Okay that's it. I'll leave you with a closing message: I showed you my deck pls respond

Thanks, that's all great advice. When I create my final sb version I'll post the list again. The revivals were anti surgical tech and disrupt opponent's graveyards too. Also some matchups I just want to revival a jace or something. It's not the strongest card there and it'll likely come out. I did have crucible and a D sphere main previously but they got moved to the sideboard. I'll consider fitting them back into the main. I think I want 2-3 d spheres in the 75 so I'll probably have a couple side. Also for humans I'll probably add the wrath of God as well as possibly the new overload pte in the main/side for humans and other matchups where I need the extra spot removal

Hey guys I hadn't played this deck for a long time but the new teferi gave me a great idea and I just kinda ran with it on Friday, creating this list.

Right up front I'll say this list definitely has problems, especially the sideboard because it's total garbage. I only went 3-1 at FNM but that was actually better than I was expecting considering what I was trying. So the idea here is to curve into a Jace on turn 4 with blockers ideally since Jace with protection is pretty good. In fact, Jace performed better than expected in my games, however my manabase doesn't actually support him as well as I'd like so I may add more blue sources. Some other weird card choices are cleric and revoker. Remorseful cleric was great against anyone relying on their graveyard (obviously) but it was also a 2/1 flier for 2 that never gets exiled from a path which means it can always be reanimated. Revoker, theoretically, is pretty great against a lot of decks. For example it shuts off hogaak's sac outlets, it turned off griselbrand vs neoform in round 1, and it was fairly useful vs the walkers that miracles had. I don't know if blue white emeria builds have been running teferi but he's pretty damn good. First of all, his static ability is just stupid good as I'm sure you're all aware and bounce draw is usually pretty good. I even used it on my wall of omens a couple times.
So anyway that's kinda my thought process on this list. Lemme know what you like, what you don't, etc.
And btw my matchups were
Neoform 2-1
UW Miracles 1-2
Temur tempo (hexdrinker, tarmogoyf, the new charm thing, force of negation) 2-1
UR Phoenix 2-0 (he played aria of flame in game one when I had two Flickerwisps in hand lol)

I can't afford to run Confidant in my list because of the many high cmc cards I play. My list for reference: Child of Alara's Circus of Values. It's changed a bit since the last time and the primer is still in there so take a peep if you want. Anyway, I've recently been thinking of building a different version of this lands deck with more of a focus on Scapeshift, Valakut, and Maze's End. I'm not sure how this will change how my deck will be constructed, so I'm here to ask you all that play a Maze's End list to share with me your insights into the matter. I used to run Maze's End a long time ago when I first built the deck but eventually it just got cut for a bunch more utility spots. So, is Valakut a reasonable way to try and win games with this deck? Considering it requires prismatic omen most of the time to get the full benefit, it sounds like it would be hard to abuse. But I could see a strategy involving sacrificing all your lands and bringing them back every turn to close out games. I could see going heavier on the ramp/extra land drop cards.

In other news, a buddy of mine has recently created a lands discord for the discussion of all lands based archetypes in Magic and we'd be glad if you'd stop by and say hi. This isn't meant to be a replacement for this thread of course, just an additional place for discussion and more importantly, cross-pollination, if you will, of the ideas of different decks. Here's the link if anyone is interested: https://discord.gg/PbBaFX5

I'll have to test out Tower of the Magistrate just to see how well it performs. Which means I have to make another cut to the deck. Probably going to be either ghost quarter or tectonic edge, which leads to the discussion of how many redundant effects decks should play.

Take High Market and Phyrexian Tower for example. Should they both be in a deck or are they similar enough in function that High Market should be eschewed? Same with Strip Mine/Wasteland/Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter. If a deck already plays Strip Mine, is it worth it to run Wasteland? And if the deck already plays both of those, are Tectonic Edge and/or Ghost quarter worth it? Tectonic edge is worse Wasteland, but it's still another Wasteland, whereas Ghost quarter is a much worse Strip Mine but with added utility of fetching a basic in exchange for a land. There's also Maze of Ith and Kor Haven. Barren Moor and Tranquil Thicket. Is it just better to replace these duplicates with more tutors and recursion? At what point does adding redundant effects start to hurt consistency rather than improve it? Or maybe the question is more like which effects are important enough to have redundant copies?

In my experience, having a second copy of a powerful effect is usually free to deckbuilding costs. Like adding Wasteland to a deck that already runs Strip Mine would make it better in most cases. But when you start to add more effects like Tectonic Edge, Ghost Quarter, Encroaching Wastes, or Dust Bowl, your manabase can become diluted and outweigh the benefits of the redundancy.

tl;dr: When do redundant land effects become harmful to our deck? And how many redundant lands do you guys run? Hopefully this sparks some more discussion about the deck and how we all build it. (And secretly helps me decide which land to cut)

An addendum: Would anyone be interested in using some other platform, say Discord or Slack, for an additional medium of communication? Just a thought. Hopefully asking this isn't against the rules...

I think the drawback of yawg will is enough to disclude it. I'd honestly rather have another regrowth effect over yawg will. It eciling itself and other things makes it pretty meh imo.

Also anyone who plays Tower of the Magistrate in their deck: how often does its use come up in matches?

You bring up some nice points about enchantment recursion and Holistic Wisdom. I may test it at some point but I dont have any current plans to. Also, I should really consider trying out a sun titan in my list. EtB plus continual advantage without having to sac it and volrath's it is a nice allure. I run regrowth in my list so that is able to get back enchantments, but its not an engine by itself. I'm thinking of cutting sacred ground because I've been unhappy to see it recently because my gameplan has moved away from tutoring all my lands + sacred ground + manabond and toward comboing off with all that mana.

Holistic Wisdom is definitely interesting, though the problem with it that I see, at least in my build, is that it puts you behind on cards for a recursion effect that doesn't stop you from topdecking lands that don't help. Sure, you can trade that land in for a different land in your graveyard, but in that case why not just another tutor for Life from the Loam or Eternal Witness? It also can't be recurred by Volrath's or Ruins. It seems like it has potential but I wouldn't play it in my deck any time soon.

Hey guys, I'm back here posting again as I do every so often. My list has changed enough since the last post that I thought I'd share it. Most notably, the deck is now capable of winning the game via a combo that enables you to play every single card in your entire deck as many times as you want, including lands. You can even move every card in your deck to every zone and back as many times as you want which is a funny side effect. The combo in question only requires 8 cards to obtain infinite life, mana, and land drops. However, almost all the cards are staples of the archetype and all of them are useful outside of the combo. Zuran Orb and Crucible of Worlds/Ramunap Excavator let you use any extra land drops to "reset" a land and gain 2 life. Mystic Retrieval and Runic Repetition allow you to pay 7UUR to return any instant or sorcery to your hand. Summer Bloom lets you turn that instant or sorcery into more mana than you paid for it by using Cabal Coffers in conjunction with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth with Cascading Cataracts to filter the black mana. Winning with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire using this combo is the most fun even though you could just use Mystic Retrieval on punishing fire.

Other notable inclusions to the deck are Myojin of Night's Reach and Ashen Rider. I like to call those two and Child Volrath's Holy Trinity. They solve every problem in magic that isnt Avacyn, Angel of Hope combined with a Privileged Position that can't be targeted. Which is extremely specific and unlikely.

Common win conditions include:
-Comboing off
-Kessig Wolf Run and/or Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
-Any of Volrath's Holy Trinity
-Marit Lage
-Striplocking

It's quite the opposite, you are required to pay additional costs when casting a spell without paying its mana cost. If the spell has optional additional costs, those may be paid and their effects will happen normally. For flashback, reference Sheep's earlier comment.

Gatherer ruling:
9/20/2016 If you cast a card “without paying its mana cost,” you can’t pay any alternative costs, such as emerge costs. You can, however, pay additional costs. If the card has any mandatory additional costs, such as that of Incendiary Sabotage, you must pay those to cast the card.