Prossh, Skyraider of Kher is a solid commander. I bought the constructed deck as a base for infect, but it already had a mass of neat things in it (which wasn't the direction I was going at the time, but I actually ended up trading back for many of the cards at later dates). Prossh typically makes at LEAST six tokens ETB and considering flying and the sac ability, that is 11 commander damage right there. Xenagos, God of Revels makes for a turn six elimination. Mage Slayer(yes I know it doesn't count as "commander damage" but it is an underappreciated equipment) and Fireshrieker make this guy deadly. This would also let you play Prossh, Skyraider of Kher.
For the off color cards:
Bident can be replaced with the Goad mechanic with cards such as Besmirch or Disrupt Decorum. You also have any number of Imp cards that do this as well. Delirum and Backlash are tweaks of opposition and the like. You can still use Earthcraft with Barl's Cage and mana acceleration (like Mana Reflection) to a similar effect. Magus of the Candelabra can lock down the lands. Keep in mind however that red and black are the colors for disposing of creatures, so lock down might not even be an issue.
Faces of the past already had a two card combo that was its better in the same block: Goblin Sharpshooter with deathtouch. Deathbringer Thoctar with deathtouch will also do the trick. If you are going for untapping more than one creature, Seedborne Muse is probably what you would want, since Prophet of Kruphix is banned.
Prossh is a likely Jund commander if that's the color I end up with. The Goad mechanic doesn't draw cards. Backlash is nothing like Opposition either, tapping 1 opposing creature (and doing some damage) isn't the strength I'm looking by comparison. Not sure how Magus can lock down lands, as he does the complete opposite. Deathbringer Thoctar was definitely something I was considering.
See my signature for Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun, not a 3~5 cc general but plays with tokens idea with emphasis on copying effects.
Temmet does nothing for me, can't see something worthwhile in him. Token clones a la Cackling Counterpart are about all I can see being good here, and it just doesn't get the juices flowing for me.
I am too a Rube Goldberg type player. Currently I have 2 decks which runs plenty of tokens, a 3c Derevi enchantress and a 2c Hapatra tokens & counters.
Hapatra is a more stable deck with the ability to go either the aggro via token route or combo via tokens. It does feature shorter combos (3 card combos) though but the entire deck is heavily synergised.
Derevi can be considered my Rube-Goldberg deck. The decklist in my signature isn't updated to my current one though, need to update it later. Combos take sometime to work out as many of them require other sub-combos online to work. The deck plays much like playing solitaire when it starts its engine, and long turns are the norm. Tokens are sort of a by-product for this deck but amassing them to tap down or swarm is one of the key features.
Hapatra is interesting, but either a build around the -1/-1 counters, or a 99 for me. Neither are quite the flow I'm going for here, but at least does seem fun over all.
Derevi is a stax commander for me, I can't see it any other way. I've done it (stax) and I could abuse the hell out of the untap triggers, but I'd just end up with another stax Derevi in the end...
Marath, Will of the Wild should also be mentioned, a swiss-army-knife that can make tokens of any size. A little bit mana hungry though.
Be warned that it becomes way worse as part of the 99.
Marath is a solid Naya commander, though less enthused about it for the reason you stated, mana hungry. Not an instant turn-down, but likely. (I have a Hazezon Tamar I bought some time ago, and still have yet to build. This would likely be my top pick for Naya. Maybe Marath as commander and Tamar in the 99)
One idea that came to me the other day was to play 5 color changelings with Sliver Hivelord as commander (for the resilience) and then just add whatever tribal effects you want. Your creatures will always benefit. Sprinkle with some unique lords like Battletide Alchemist, Greatbow Doyen.
You can add tokens by playing Conspiracy and Xenograft to line up their creature type and there's another such enchantment coming in Ixalan. Mirror Entity works too.
I like tribal well enough, but in this case I'm thinking a random assortment of creature types, so short of Conspiracy EVER GAME, it doesn't mesh right for me. (I had a Conspiracy styled Horde of Notions deck floating about my head for quite some time, paired with Ashes of the Fallen)
@ Boros:
Aside from some creatures I tend to forget, the list is pretty casual (as tagged, so no issue there). I'd have a hefty change in cards from your own list, personally.
@ Turtle:
Tana certainly works for me, though the need for pump to translate into numbers is a touch irritating, and comboing with Sidar isn't my ideal. A number of your suggestions are solid, though some less ideal in my mind. Good: Harvest Season - Less good: Burn at the Stake (heavy red commitment and sorcery kills it for me).
Definitely not digging Taigam for a token commander, personally. Good card, sure, token flow isn't where I'd go (definitely a 99 card for me). Again, suggestions are sound for this idea though, I can dig the idea, but definitely not something that I'd play, personally.
Well, I was more referring to cards like Mirror Entity, Beastmaster Ascension, Ajani Goldmane, and Descent of the Dragons, cards that give boosts to everything you care to pop. But I totally get if your playstyle is different. Cheers.
Beastmaster is simply a closer for me, nothing more. Same as Purphoros and other similar cards. It's a way to kill an opponent. I could T&N Avenger/Hoof in monogreen just as easily. I like seeing all of my cards in play, doing their job, so picking the right flow for me is more important than a closer.
Mirror entity as I've seen is a combo piece, or a repeatable Biomass Mutation (how I would likely use it). Descent of dragons is both selective removal and upgrading saprolings, so definitely something I would like to play if I plan on R/X
The "Casual" tag is so strange to see with this list, as some cards are clearly sub-optimal... But then next to clearly more powerful cards seems quite awkward.
Thopter/Sword combo is so out of place in here. There is NO synergy for Thopter Foundry in the deck past the combo...
Broodhatch Nantuko and friends seem weak, as you have few enough ways to trigger them, nor keep them around. (I would expect Blasphemous Act to be here to trigger them, as well as mass removal)
Master's Call should be Lingering Souls as tribal aspects aren't there, but the value of 4 flying bodies for 5cmc is far better. Midnight Haunting if you want it to still be an instant.
Tuktuk & Rukh both are under par, for size of token. Size or body count, these both get outclassed by a great deal of creatures that make tokens. Worldspine Wurm, for the casual aspect, but has plenty of the Timmy vibe?
@ Boros:
Aside from some creatures I tend to forget, the list is pretty casual (as tagged, so no issue there). I'd have a hefty change in cards from your own list, personally.
@ Turtle:
Tana certainly works for me, though the need for pump to translate into numbers is a touch irritating, and comboing with Sidar isn't my ideal. A number of your suggestions are solid, though some less ideal in my mind. Good: Harvest Season - Less good: Burn at the Stake (heavy red commitment and sorcery kills it for me).
Definitely not digging Taigam for a token commander, personally. Good card, sure, token flow isn't where I'd go (definitely a 99 card for me). Again, suggestions are sound for this idea though, I can dig the idea, but definitely not something that I'd play, personally.
Trying to decide on the deck (and Commander) I'd like to run as a utility styled token deck. I care less for the way to close the game then how it all works together. I'm a Rube Goldberg player, I like things to flow and synergize heavily.
My head starts doing a checklist of what I want, then it says, how are you going to fit it all in... only have 100 slots to work with. Gotta watch how deep you go down this rabbit hole.
5c will be Sliver Queen once I get another copy, after having sold it back to my LGS of the time. After that things get muddled with the change in color direction.
Little trickier then you might be giving it credit for. That which was taken gives him an activated ability that lets him put a divinity counter on any permanent besides himself. So if you caged myojin as well you'd get myojin's ability but wouldn't have any way to add a divinity counter to Mairsil. You could cheat myojin into play though and go to town, or play that which was taken and cage the myojin. But can't cage both.
Someone correct me if my logic is wrong here, but this should work as Taleran intends...
That Which Was Taken refers to itself. It can put a counter on another That Which Was Taken, according to the Ruling. It's also NAMED as itself, rather than worded as THIS PERMANENT, so the activation can target Mairsil, as it doesn't refer to itself and Mairsil =\= That Which Was Taken... So activating him as a Taken, and removing them as Myojins should work.
Infect or bust, man. That's where he shines tbh........
Ran that, it's a trap honestly. Voltron is better, less wasted slots to sub-par creatures. Varolz really is a 1v1 deck, for any real competition. Toss in an evaside infector, sure. Aim for the commander damage most often.
I ran a discard subtheme, keep cards stripped out of hands as much as possible ala Oppression. Any fatty worth playing for fat's sake had to be 2 power/cmc, minimum. Speed and control was the name of the game, try to race to a commander kill, asap.
Too much fat and not enough control. Kaalia decks have the inherent issue of resolving AND swinging with her to get value... which you have slim pickings for that to happen. Lightning Greaves and Defense Grid are about it.
The planeswalker deck bolas looks like a lot of fun for casual tables. Certainly interactive, and the ability to alternate between hucking 9 damage around the table (at worst) and destroying problem creatures seems like fun.
This is the first 7+cc PW who "cannot" outright destroy another PW, interesting.
Huh? Garruk's first ability is literally "destroy target PW".
More tired than I thought... totally read Cyberium's sentence as "the first PW to outright destroy", not "cannot outright". My mistake, that's what a 12.5 hour work day does to me...
The planeswalker deck bolas looks like a lot of fun for casual tables. Certainly interactive, and the ability to alternate between hucking 9 damage around the table (at worst) and destroying problem creatures seems like fun.
This is the first 7+cc PW who "cannot" outright destroy another PW, interesting.
Oracle of Mul Daya VS. Llanowar Elves abilities aside, I was wondering more on the numbers. Oracle plays off the top, so a land heavy deck benefits heavily. She's card advantage, pure and simple. However she's only 1 card. Likewise, Crucible of Worlds only does work if you run a decent number of fetches, or you start activating Tasigur. Redundancy numbers is half my question for ramp, Rampant Growth is a weaker card, as it tends to get returned time and time again, lowering Tasigur's power. Would you say, all of your suggestions (minus Burgeoning, I find weaker) with the addition of some rocks? Dimir Signet, Chromatic Lantern, Commander's Sphere, Darksteel Ingot and maybe 2 more pieces to round it out?
I would not run any mana rocks besides sol ring and mana crypt. Your ramp should be either repeatable or very high impact (i.e. splendid reclamation). Those rocks are all atrocious to get from the graveyard. Commander's sphere you'll never want to sac or you'll just end up getting it back with your commander again, and darksteel and chromatic are just bad cards imo. Signet's fine, but too low impact.
Don't own a Mana Crypt (between budget and desire, honestly) Commander's Sphere was thrown out as an "all color" rock that can trigger Life from the Loam, mostly. Seedborn was a given.
I've not got a Tasigur deck, but I've played against one (and a control-centric one at that) a few times and I'm surprised that getting back bad cards from Tasigur is a concern. You should pretty much always be able to get back the removal or counter you need by simply targeting someone else who also needs the problem answered. Unless your opponents are utter idiots, they're not going to give you Llanowar Elves over Counterspell when there's a Tooth and Nail on the stack.
That is the intention, play a touch of "police" when easily possible.
Rings of Brighthearth is going in the opposite direction, it's a solid value card, certainly, but now every activation is 6, plus the spell's CMC on top. Illusionist's Bracers are good, I usually tend to forget about them. Training Grounds was a given. I'm a bit torn of Villainous Wealth. Solid, sure... Doesn't thrill, so I'll try it, but don't have high hopes, personally.
probably also worth pointing out that by using delve spells you can limit what your opponents have to choose from so that you only get good stuff.
To all replies, none of this really answers the question initially posed... (Dirk's was closest, over all) Perhaps it's my failing in communicating what I'm asking for? Cost =/= Effect? Tasigur returning and casting Nature's Claim is 5, so that's the top end benchmark for a Naturalize effect, correct? How many Naturalizes can/should you play before you flood that kind of removal and the cost is TOO much to justify. How many slots (and what kind) do you set aside for "ramp"?
That was the basis for the thread. I apologize for sounding rude or condescending, but it seems more like people just read "Tasigur, do this", rather than read what the inquiry was.
I'd also tend to think of Tasigur's ability as your late-game reach, not something you're trying to play ASAP. He's pretty useless on turn 3, but he's great on turn 8 when you're starting to run out of removal and such and you've got a bunch of mana sitting around.
EDIT: oh, and there's that card from EMN that returns all your lands, I bet that's good for the deck too.
Oracle of Mul Daya VS. Llanowar Elves abilities aside, I was wondering more on the numbers. Oracle plays off the top, so a land heavy deck benefits heavily. She's card advantage, pure and simple. However she's only 1 card. Likewise, Crucible of Worlds only does work if you run a decent number of fetches, or you start activating Tasigur. Redundancy numbers is half my question for ramp, Rampant Growth is a weaker card, as it tends to get returned time and time again, lowering Tasigur's power. Would you say, all of your suggestions (minus Burgeoning, I find weaker) with the addition of some rocks? Dimir Signet, Chromatic Lantern, Commander's Sphere, Darksteel Ingot and maybe 2 more pieces to round it out?
The power of Tasigur is in the late game. He gives you something to do with your mana if you have nothing better to do with it.
It can also be great to reuse his delve ability to remove the chaff you do not want returned with his ability.
Also consider mana rocks and Paradox Engine as an engine. Seems like it might have some potential if you can keep the average mana cost of the spells down.
Paradox Engine seems a touch weak for the deck. Not planning on going deep in activations, either rocks or dorks. Lower costing spells was part of the intention of the thread, ergo the comparison of Nature's Claim VS. Root Out. Nature's Claim is awesome, Dispel is horrendously narrow (Swan Song is what I'd play in that place) and Murderous Cut becomes unwieldy after a few casts.
This is a new deck style that I'd like to try out, in which I have some mild understanding of... But for those who have played Tasigur (or similar play styles), at which point, do you start turning away spells because the Tasigur Activation + Spell Cost become too prohibitive?
(Training Grounds, etc aside) Activating and casting Naturalize is 6 mana, not exactly stellar... How much do you HAVE to set aside ramp (spells, rocks or dorks) just to -optimally- play the deck? 33% of the non-lands, just to function? How many duplicate spells do you run before you start climbing in CMC for your removal, which now loses potency because Nature's Claim turns into Root Out or similar?
I'm aware that I should look at his activations additional card advantage (supplemental?) and I should simply run a bit more generically goodstuff-y cards as the primary style, which the activations as a political advantage.
I think in most cases those cards are card selection, and not card advantage. Card selection is often more powerfull the card advantage in a combo deck.
That's why I wrote it as I did, "Avantage/conversion" as selection is an advantage, even if it isn't raw card numbers. Trading in your Elvish Mystic for a Reclamation Sage is an advantage when you don't need a turn 10 dork, but you need to kill that Grave Pact (or similar).
I simply feel like it is so bad to draw an Elvish Mystic on turn 5... that it is unplayable.
You can also use other card advantage/conversion practices with the Mystic. Survival of the Fittest, Evolutionary Leap, or spellshapers, like Bog Witch. Turns a lackluster draw into some other resource of value.
Prossh is a likely Jund commander if that's the color I end up with. The Goad mechanic doesn't draw cards. Backlash is nothing like Opposition either, tapping 1 opposing creature (and doing some damage) isn't the strength I'm looking by comparison. Not sure how Magus can lock down lands, as he does the complete opposite. Deathbringer Thoctar was definitely something I was considering.
Temmet does nothing for me, can't see something worthwhile in him. Token clones a la Cackling Counterpart are about all I can see being good here, and it just doesn't get the juices flowing for me.
Hapatra is interesting, but either a build around the -1/-1 counters, or a 99 for me. Neither are quite the flow I'm going for here, but at least does seem fun over all.
Derevi is a stax commander for me, I can't see it any other way. I've done it (stax) and I could abuse the hell out of the untap triggers, but I'd just end up with another stax Derevi in the end...
Marath is a solid Naya commander, though less enthused about it for the reason you stated, mana hungry. Not an instant turn-down, but likely. (I have a Hazezon Tamar I bought some time ago, and still have yet to build. This would likely be my top pick for Naya. Maybe Marath as commander and Tamar in the 99)
I like tribal well enough, but in this case I'm thinking a random assortment of creature types, so short of Conspiracy EVER GAME, it doesn't mesh right for me. (I had a Conspiracy styled Horde of Notions deck floating about my head for quite some time, paired with Ashes of the Fallen)
Beastmaster is simply a closer for me, nothing more. Same as Purphoros and other similar cards. It's a way to kill an opponent. I could T&N Avenger/Hoof in monogreen just as easily. I like seeing all of my cards in play, doing their job, so picking the right flow for me is more important than a closer.
Mirror entity as I've seen is a combo piece, or a repeatable Biomass Mutation (how I would likely use it). Descent of dragons is both selective removal and upgrading saprolings, so definitely something I would like to play if I plan on R/X
Thopter/Sword combo is so out of place in here. There is NO synergy for Thopter Foundry in the deck past the combo...
Broodhatch Nantuko and friends seem weak, as you have few enough ways to trigger them, nor keep them around. (I would expect Blasphemous Act to be here to trigger them, as well as mass removal)
Master's Call should be Lingering Souls as tribal aspects aren't there, but the value of 4 flying bodies for 5cmc is far better. Midnight Haunting if you want it to still be an instant.
Tuktuk & Rukh both are under par, for size of token. Size or body count, these both get outclassed by a great deal of creatures that make tokens. Worldspine Wurm, for the casual aspect, but has plenty of the Timmy vibe?
Aside from some creatures I tend to forget, the list is pretty casual (as tagged, so no issue there). I'd have a hefty change in cards from your own list, personally.
@ Turtle:
Tana certainly works for me, though the need for pump to translate into numbers is a touch irritating, and comboing with Sidar isn't my ideal. A number of your suggestions are solid, though some less ideal in my mind. Good: Harvest Season - Less good: Burn at the Stake (heavy red commitment and sorcery kills it for me).
Definitely not digging Taigam for a token commander, personally. Good card, sure, token flow isn't where I'd go (definitely a 99 card for me). Again, suggestions are sound for this idea though, I can dig the idea, but definitely not something that I'd play, personally.
Cards with the vibe I'm looking for. Earthcraft, Opposition, Glare of Subdual, Bident of Thassa, Mindslash, Goblin Bombardment, Faces of the Past.
My head starts doing a checklist of what I want, then it says, how are you going to fit it all in... only have 100 slots to work with. Gotta watch how deep you go down this rabbit hole.
5c will be Sliver Queen once I get another copy, after having sold it back to my LGS of the time. After that things get muddled with the change in color direction.
Someone correct me if my logic is wrong here, but this should work as Taleran intends...
That Which Was Taken refers to itself. It can put a counter on another That Which Was Taken, according to the Ruling. It's also NAMED as itself, rather than worded as THIS PERMANENT, so the activation can target Mairsil, as it doesn't refer to itself and Mairsil =\= That Which Was Taken... So activating him as a Taken, and removing them as Myojins should work.
Ran that, it's a trap honestly. Voltron is better, less wasted slots to sub-par creatures. Varolz really is a 1v1 deck, for any real competition. Toss in an evaside infector, sure. Aim for the commander damage most often.
I ran a discard subtheme, keep cards stripped out of hands as much as possible ala Oppression. Any fatty worth playing for fat's sake had to be 2 power/cmc, minimum. Speed and control was the name of the game, try to race to a commander kill, asap.
Too many colored mana symbols attached to high costed cards for "MLD/STAX"ing (Necropotence, True Conviction, Mizzium Mortars-Overloaded). You reference Winter Orb, but it's not in the list.
Night's Whisper makes it into all my black decks now.
More tired than I thought... totally read Cyberium's sentence as "the first PW to outright destroy", not "cannot outright". My mistake, that's what a 12.5 hour work day does to me...
Garruk, Apex Predator would like a word with this statement...
Don't own a Mana Crypt (between budget and desire, honestly) Commander's Sphere was thrown out as an "all color" rock that can trigger Life from the Loam, mostly. Seedborn was a given.
That is the intention, play a touch of "police" when easily possible.
Rings of Brighthearth is going in the opposite direction, it's a solid value card, certainly, but now every activation is 6, plus the spell's CMC on top. Illusionist's Bracers are good, I usually tend to forget about them. Training Grounds was a given. I'm a bit torn of Villainous Wealth. Solid, sure... Doesn't thrill, so I'll try it, but don't have high hopes, personally.
That was the basis for the thread. I apologize for sounding rude or condescending, but it seems more like people just read "Tasigur, do this", rather than read what the inquiry was.
Oracle of Mul Daya VS. Llanowar Elves abilities aside, I was wondering more on the numbers. Oracle plays off the top, so a land heavy deck benefits heavily. She's card advantage, pure and simple. However she's only 1 card. Likewise, Crucible of Worlds only does work if you run a decent number of fetches, or you start activating Tasigur. Redundancy numbers is half my question for ramp, Rampant Growth is a weaker card, as it tends to get returned time and time again, lowering Tasigur's power. Would you say, all of your suggestions (minus Burgeoning, I find weaker) with the addition of some rocks? Dimir Signet, Chromatic Lantern, Commander's Sphere, Darksteel Ingot and maybe 2 more pieces to round it out?
Paradox Engine seems a touch weak for the deck. Not planning on going deep in
This is a new deck style that I'd like to try out, in which I have some mild understanding of... But for those who have played Tasigur (or similar play styles), at which point, do you start turning away spells because the Tasigur Activation + Spell Cost become too prohibitive?
(Training Grounds, etc aside) Activating and casting Naturalize is 6 mana, not exactly stellar... How much do you HAVE to set aside ramp (spells, rocks or dorks) just to -optimally- play the deck? 33% of the non-lands, just to function? How many duplicate spells do you run before you start climbing in CMC for your removal, which now loses potency because Nature's Claim turns into Root Out or similar?
I'm aware that I should look at his activations additional card advantage (supplemental?) and I should simply run a bit more generically goodstuff-y cards as the primary style, which the activations as a political advantage.
That's why I wrote it as I did, "Avantage/conversion" as selection is an advantage, even if it isn't raw card numbers. Trading in your Elvish Mystic for a Reclamation Sage is an advantage when you don't need a turn 10 dork, but you need to kill that Grave Pact (or similar).
You can also use other card advantage/conversion practices with the Mystic. Survival of the Fittest, Evolutionary Leap, or spellshapers, like Bog Witch. Turns a lackluster draw into some other resource of value.