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  • posted a message on Hushbringer Oracle ruling question
    Quote from davidb32 »
    Hushbringer
    Syr Konrad, the Grim
    10/4/2019 An ability that triggers on a card leaving a zone (such as that of Syr Konrad, the Grim) won’t trigger if that card is leaving its previous zone because it’s entering the battlefield as a creature.

    Can anyone tell me what C.R. rules cover this ruling? I'm having a hard time understanding it.

    Regardless of whether Bloodghast is entering the battlefield or an embalm creature is exiling itself, Syr Konrad is looking for the creature card leaving the graveyard, so why does Hushbringer interfere with the Konrad/Bloodgast trigger?

    So, if Hushbringer is in effect, and Syr Konrad is hanging around, "Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger." Therefore, suppose some creature card in your graveyard moves onto the battlefield. That creature entering the battlefield doesn't cause Syr Konrad to trigger (if it IS a creature that enters the battlefield).

    Even though triggered abilities define what counts as an event, this new breed of rule-modifying abilities have closed the book on what counts as one or two things that happen, and how they cause triggered abilities to trigger from them. Syr Konrad would trigger on "a creature card leaving your graveyard", you say, and you say that happened. I ask, "When did that happen?" and you now can only indicate how that card moved from the graveyard into the battlefield as a creature permanent. Every way you point to it, a concrete thing that happened, you're talking about a creature entering the battlefield. Hushbringer says that cannot be a thing that triggers abilities.

    In regards to 603.10, that says to look back in time to make the determination, "using the existence of [the triggered abilities in question] and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event." No part of this countermands that Hushbringer gets to see the reality of what has happened in full, or even that the triggered ability without a Hushbringer nosing around would not get to see the attributes of involved objects after the event as well as before. For example, a trigger that cares about a creature dying has to -actually know- that the object entered the graveyard afterward. It's just that, unlike with other triggers, we need to use more information than just spotting the assertion of a new game state as goggle-minded amnesiac - just as the full text of 603.10 says, which extends 603.2.

    603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities are exceptions to this rule; the game “looks back in time” to determine if those abilities trigger, using the existence of those abilities and the appearance of objects immediately prior to the event. The list of exceptions is as follows:
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Sen's triplets and Approach of the Second Sun
    While it is true that your opponent has "cast another spell named Approach of the Second Sun" this turn game, that player did not cast this Approach of the Second Sun from their own hand. The first check is false.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Marionette Master + Exiling
    Ram Through isn't merely getting data from the target creature. Ram Through tries to make the target actually -do- something; specifically, deal damage. Spells are not allowed to make illegal targets do things. Just as spells cannot do things to illegal targets.

    From 608. Resolving Spells and Abilities,

    608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. If all its targets, for every instance of the word “target,” are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn’t resolve. It’s removed from the stack and, if it’s a spell, put into its owner’s graveyard. Otherwise, the spell or ability will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won’t be affected by parts of a resolving spell’s effect for which they’re illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.11), those effects don’t apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won’t happen. (emphasis added)

    If you're troubled by the sentence after the bolded part, it means to refer to cases where a spell has multiple target indicators, with different requirements, and you have pointed those targets at the same object. Decimate targeting an object like an enchantment creature as the target enchantment and as the target creature, which then loses one of those types, would be an illegal target for one of those selections but still a legal target for another one.

    Do take confidence if you recall, that abilities can sometimes cause things that don't exist to do things. This is what happens if you destroy Bosh, Iron Golem with its ability on the Stack; and it's what happens every time Mogg Fanatic's ability resolves. A rule exists for this, which only mentions when abilities request that the nonexistent thing does something, so it doesn't apply to spells: "If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability." CR 608.2h. That rule isn't what makes Marionette Master do its thing though; that is covered by 113.7a:

    "113.7a. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to any target”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source for use while announcing an activated ability or putting a triggered ability on the stack checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists." --No actually this doesn't apply either.

    The last sentence of 113.7a is not relevant here; Marionette Master's ability doesn't cause the Master to do anything, it causes a player to do something. And the part in the middle is just talking about parts of an ability's definition that refer to "the kinds of things you do when stacking or playing a spell or ability", like choosing targets or modes, if those definitions are unusual and reference the source of the ability. The reference to this rule in 608.2h covers the case of checking the source redundantly; in the context 113.7a the determination is that Marionette Master is not referring to itself in how to target things or otherwise placing the trigger on the Stack, so therefore (from the "Otherwise," on,) any information is checked when the ability resolves.

    608.2h 608.2b (I meant 608.2b when I wrote this) doesn't fit, because "If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process." says "this process", of evaluating targets, which isn't how Marionette Master refers to itself.

    so, I'm still looking, but kind of stumped right now.

    edit: It's just another part of 608.2h:

    608.2h If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself, the effect uses the current information of that object if it’s in the public zone it was expected to be in; if it’s no longer in that zone, or if the effect has moved it from a public zone to a hidden zone, the effect uses the object’s last known information. See rule 113.7a. If an ability states that an object does something, it’s the object as it exists—or as it most recently existed—that does it, not the ability.

    Literally everything in it other than the part I quoted before.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Ezuri, Claw of Progress Power/Toughness
    A static ability on a suitable source creates an effect that applies at all times, to whatever it says it applies to.(CR113.3d.) An ability written "All Elves get +1/+1." or "Elf creatures get +1/+1.", if it is on a permanent, means that any Elf creature has an effect of getting +1/+1 applying to it. Two abilities means any Elf creature is getting +2/+2.

    An Elvish Mystic which is on the battlefield in these circumstances is 3/3. Ezuri, Claw of Progress does not trigger. No "creature with power 2 or less" entered the battlefield.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Dungeon of the mad mage triggers
    Quote from Quert_Log »
    So I was playing a game last night and came across some things with dungeon of the mad mage I had questions about.

    Exile top 2 cards of your library, you may play them

    I understand this only applies to this one time, in that I won't be able to cast these creatures from exile after this point if I so choose not to cast them once the dungeon ability is resolved, correct?

    Yes, you are given an option to do a thing with either or both and if you decline then that's the end of the effect.

    Secondly, I got to the very last trigger of the dungeon anddddd drew 3 lands. This occurred after I had already played a land that turn, and we reasoned since the trigger states you may play a card without paying its cost, and lands don't cost anything to cast, that i couldn't use the ability to play a land anyways. Is this the case? Can I play a land this way, what about a second land?

    You can't cast lands, only spells. Lands are played.

    Lastly, for both situations, the exiled cards, or the 3 cards drawn at the last trigger, if this occurs on opponents turn can I play a land? Or is that completely trumped by the never play a land on an opponents turn?

    You can never play a land on another player's turn. CR305.3
    Also, you cannot play a land if you've played as many lands as you're allowed to play this turn (usually 1).
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Halvar god of battle and the bestowed
    Quote from ncat63 »
    Halvar, God of Battle

    When using halvar's ability to move equipment/auras with a Bestowed aura, will it just turn into a creature because during the move its not attached to a creature?

    If you're attaching an Aura which is a bestowed Aura, to something, then, it is never not attached to an object. There is no 'during the move' so in fact the Aura is never unattached (though it becomes unattached from the first creature). See CR701.3 Attach, especially 701.3d. By attaching it to something else, it just changes what counts as "the thing it's attached to".

    The bestowed Aura is never not attached, so the State-Based Action doesn't apply to it; but what matters here isn't a State-Based Action but whether the bestowed condition is revoked. It's not that the Aura dodges a sweep for State-Based actions to get 702.103e never to apply. It's that the Aura really genuinely never becomes unattached. It was never unattached, so it's still bestowed. So it's still a noncreature Aura.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Wishmonger protection from white?
    A creature with protection from white cannot be blocked by any white creature. So that attacker cannot be blocked by Wishmonger.

    If the two were already blocking & blocked with each other, the combat damage they eventually assign to each other would be prevented.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Suspend and "Cast"
    They targeted a creature but they weren't clear on whether the card is creature or noncreature. They didn't name any particular man-land or in what way it was a man-land. We might as well also point out that suspend wording is not to cast things, the word in the definition is "play". cyberium you should disregard what you might recall about how suspend (the keyword) used to be defined.

    If the card in exile is nonland it will be cast which counts as playing, if it is land it will be played. So, answering the question cyberium asked, you cast the card only if you know more information than whether you're playing a creature card.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Suspend and "Cast"
    Quote from cyberium_neo »
    Talking about the card Suspend. The wording makes it possible to exile a man-land and "play" it after the last counter is removed, though traditionally suspend wording let you "cast" things. I presume if I play a creature via this card, it's considered as a cast too?


    Your question is confusing. Did you exile a noncreature land card that becomes a creature, or did you exile a creature card?
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Xorn and Academy Manufactor
    The actual mechanism of providing that replacement effects "only apply once" is something I took up out of underemployed obsessive mathematical interest.
    I have not found a pretty way of describing it.

    Suffice it to say, in this situation, if you would make a Clue, instead you make a Clue, a Food, and two Treasures. To propose the double everything option is to ignore that Manufacturer is aware that it is already responsible for the event where you make 1 Treasure token. All the Treasures out of Xorn's say on the matter have to do with an event Manufacturer already replaced.

    Now, if you were making a Treasure up front, you'd have a choice, and you could make two of everything, or you could end up the same place as above again.

    No loop.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Wild-Magic Sorcerer and copying then casting spells.
    Quote from The Emortal »
    How does Wild-Magic Sorcerer interact with cards that ask you to copy a spell and then cast the copy? My assumption is that it would trigger off an effect such as Isochron Scepter which is copying a card in exile, and the copy would exist in exile before being cast.

    It does.

    By the way, no card has you copy a spell and then cast the copy. Isochron Scepter makes a copy of a card. A spell is only a spell while it's on the Stack.

    Whereas something such as Garth One-Eye would not trigger it as his copies being cast don't exist in any specified game zone before being cast? Looking for clarification and any other corner examples for this interesting card.


    It would appear that way, though Garth One-Eye is in a strange spot as you may imagine. At the very least, there's just no reason to propose that the copy of a card is ever in exile.

    EDIT: I didnt think to Ctrl-F the rules doc for the name Garth One-Eye back then. This rule exists in the version dated July 23, 2021, the current version:

    707.13. One card (Garth One-Eye) instructs a player to create a copy of a card defined by name rather than by indicating an object to be copied. To do so, the player uses the Oracle card reference to determine the characteristics of the copy and creates the copy outside of the game.

    So the copy is not cast from exile.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Phantom Steed token
    That triggered ability is a delayed triggered ability. It was created as another consequence of the ability that made the token. The delayed triggered ability exists without reference to Phantom Steed, and will trigger the next time "end of combat" comes around.

    You know it's a delayed trigger because it was created in the instructions of the other ability. Notice the sentence continues in the same block of text as where the token is made. Abilities on Phantom Steed will not be relevant if Phantom Steed isn't present, but a delayed triggered ability is created and waits without being on or represented by anything, until its trigger event. It isn't an ability on Phantom Steed.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Approach of the Second Sun and Hive Mind
    The name "Approach of the Second Sun" in the text of the *spell*, whichever spell that is, means that spell. The object which is that spell - a card or a copy of a spell. That instruction makes the player put that spell into its owner's library. ADD: The instruction on the spell I mean, and the copy got all the text of your card by copying it, so that is the instruction on it.

    The owner of copies of cards, copies of spells, and tokens changed -somewhat- recently. CR112.2 holds that copies of spells, and copies of cards, while they are spells, are owned by the first player who controlled them on the Stack. Hive Mind created the copies on the Stack under your opponents' control, so your opponent owns them.

    The copy ceases to exist because copies of cards, copies of spells, and tokens, only belong in some zones, and the game poofs them away where they aren't meant to be. Your Approach card does not cease to exist - it moves into your library. There's a difference.

    I do not know what you're getting at when you say Approach isn't a permanent but is a sorcery card. It's true, but I don't get it.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on A monument fit for a goddess
    The dash cost is an attribute of the dash ability, and the ability on the card doesn't change.
    The cost you pay is reduced by 1 mana . The cost you pay is a function of the dash cost and the Monument.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on 'Target Player'
    The rules don't prescribe, or describe, anything other than to track which step and phase of the turn you're in, in the order it specifies.

    The phases are, Beginning, Main, Combat, Main, and Ending
    and, in the Beginning phase, there is an Untap step, Upkeep step, and Draw step. In the Combat phase, there is a Beginning of Combat step, Declare Attackers step, Declare Blockers step, Combat Damage step, and End of Combat step. In the Ending phase, there is the End step, and the Cleanup step.
    The main phases do not have steps.

    • To end a step, begin the next step, unless it's the Draw step, in which case end the Beginning phase, or the Cleanup step, in which case end the Ending phase.
    • When you end a phase you start the next phase, or end the turn if it's the Ending phase.
    • When you end a turn you start the next turn. To start a turn, start its Beginning phase.
    • To start a phase, start its first step.

    Someone could make a version of a spindown life counter except for the parts of the turn, but Im not aware that anyone has. The rules don't say anything about needing to keep a physical document of where in the turn you are, I guess since both players would just... know. If you did something and disagreed on when it was occurring, you'd just rewind until the last time you agreed you were in the same place. Not as a tournament procedure but at the kitchen table, mind you.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
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