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  • posted a message on BW Tokens
    Quote from tarotplz »
    Thanks for the replies,

    Let me ask you some more questions about the decks though.

    In BW Control, what do you think about Liliana of the Veil? Do you think she fits in? If no, why does she fit in Tokens so much better?

    Also, like Gazpoole stated above, how much of an impact do the mainboard wraths have in your opinion? How many times are they actually game deciding?

    Lili is rarely played in the BW Control list because the deck has a really high curve with 10 or more 4+cmc cards, so you absolutley have to hit your first 4-5 landdrops and you usually don't want to discard any of the planeswalkers or wraths. However, I play 2 Lilis in my sideboard for matchups where my opponent doesn't play to the board and/or holds a lot of cards in hand. In midrange decks like Jund and Abzan Lili works better in the maindeck as these decks don't need a lot of lands and play the topdeck-game much better. I never played her in Tokens, so I have no experience to share here.

    Against most creature decks, Wrath of God/Damnation/Day of Judgment are the cards I'm always happy to see. It is the deck's way to produce card advantage and create a window for Gideons to attack before the opponent can recover; so yes they are very crucial to the deck. Of course there are matchups where wrath effects are dead, but as long as the meta stays creature heavy, I'm willing to accept this.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on BW Tokens
    I have switched from Tokens to BW Control about half a year ago so I can give some insight on both archetypes.

    First of all, both have a terrible combo matchup, as neither Tokens nor Planeswalkers make for a fast clock. Gideon of the Trials can steal some games against something like Ad Nauseum or Lantern with his Emblem (and he is great against Burn), but if Tokens gets the right mix between tokens and anthem effects, their clock is slightly faster I have to say.

    Against creature decks, in my experience the BW Control list is a little more favoured than Tokens. Even with anthems the tokens get outclassed really fast by delve threats or humans or Hollow Ones, etc. A curve like Wall of Omens into a Gideon into a wrath deals conveniently with most aggro and midrange strategies and allows for faster pressure afterwards with a 4/4 or 5/5 Gideon.

    Both archetypes grind well and have decent control matchups. In the end, I feel like both decks are somewhere in low Tier 2 with Tokens having a little more linear playstyle. The biggest upside and also the reason I switched to BW control is that it minimizes draws that do nothing on their own. Intangible Virtue or a Sorin on a board with no tokens feels really bad. Finally, in my list I play some number of Wall of Omens and Night's Whisper to smooth out draws and have a better chance to draw sideboard cards.

    Hope I could help a little @tarotplz Smile
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from SavageGaul »
    Which decks does SFM benefit most? Two-colored (or mono-colored in the case of D&T), non-red, fair decks. It lines up well against the hyperaggro decks that rule the roost without coming anywhere near to invalidating them. Again, I freely admit to bias here. I play UW control and also have been working on brewing and testing the best shell for Orzhov Stoneblade in Modern, in order to be ready when her (hopefully inevitable) unban takes place.

    Anyway, apologies for preaching to the choir; I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that SFM should remain on the ban list. It’s just that the case for her release seems to grow stronger and stronger with each passing day.

    I don't think there is any real argument left for SFM to stay on the ban list from a gameplay perspective. IMO the reason Wizards won't release her in the next couple ban/unban dates is that they want to grab some money off of it by printing it in a future set like they did with Jace. So no SFM for 2018 I think, although I would love to brew some Orzhov or Esper list, too!
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on CAW BLADE? IN MODERN?
    I think if you are not playing Blue for Trophy Mage, then BW might be a better color combination for this style of deck. It offers great sword-carriers in the already mentioned Lingering Souls plus Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant and Mirran Crusader. With so many 1/1s, one could also think about a few copies of the much underestimated Smuggler's Copter. Furthermore, discard > counters IMO, at least in this midrange kind of deck with clunky sorcery speed stuff like swords.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on BW Midrange/ "Deadguy Ale"
    Sooo I'm not sure where I'd post this, but this Thread seems pretty on-topic for this idea.

    I'd like to see if there's a viable Build that would use the synergy between Karn, Scion of Urza and Tidehollow Sculler. Between Sculler, some vehicles like Looter Scooter or Heart, 3-drop Planeswalkers like Lili or Gid of the Trials, and also running the usual Lingering Souls and discard/removal package, that you'd have a fantastic disruption package with a really powerful grinding engine in Karn. Making a 4/4 or drawing you cards every few turns sounds incredibly powerful, and I feel like if I could figure out a truly nasty creature package to pair this idea with, it could have a lot of potential.

    Any ideas?

    Some food for thought: Tidehollow Sculler, Smuggler's Copter, Blade Splicer, Thraben Inspector. These are all reasonable midrange cards that are or produce artifacts. I think the problem is that Karn would be your only payoff card for the artifact theme and that alone doesn't make it worth it.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Modern Prices Discussion
    Quote from Colt47 »
    Quote from idSurge »
    History of Benalia is also 'lol' worthy right now, but not $40 lol worthy.

    I think you are looking at the pre-release version. Regular version is going for 15 dollars. I actually think the card has legs in a couple of builds both modern and standard, but it's not worth the 15. This is probably the first time since maybe gatecrash where the prices on just about everything is probably going to drop.

    I'd be interested to pick up some copies in the near future for modern brewing. Where do you think its price will settle in the short term (next two month)? Also, in which kind of modern deck can you see it being played besides tier 4 knight-tribal?
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    Quote from Azetsu »
    Quote from Unreal207 »
    I haven't playtested it yet. But the more and more I think about things. I think the new Karn is the card engine we want!

    I'm not sure but isn't Ob Nixilis, Pyhrexian Arena, Night's Whisper and Arguels Blood Fast just better?
    With Karn the opponent can decide with card you get and he sees both.

    On the other side Karn has a high loyality and can produce tokens (which are not strong in our deck)

    Also the 4 cmc slot is quite filled by wraths and other walkers

    I agree. Karn's first two abilities are not that strong assuming it will take two activations before you get a card you actually want. Against grindy midrange and control matchups I would much rather draw any of the cards mentioned above. I am currently testing 2 Night's Whisper and 1 Phyrexian Arena (+3 Wall of Omens) as my draw engine. If the lifeloss is a problem, you probably do not want Karn in the given matchup either.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    The only new card I will play for sure is Damping Sphere in my sideboard. Unfortunately I think every other card mentioned so far isn't quite there, either being too narrow or too low powerwise. I'm tempted to give History of Benalia a shot as a 2-off since it's a nice clock with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for a potential 17 damage swing on turn 5, but most of the time, this will only be a dream scenario.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    I have been playing with Smuggler's Copter alot in Deadguy Ale (BW Midrange) in conjunction with Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, Bloodghast, Lingering Souls and more discard outlets (Lili and Collective Brutality). I love this card as it provides a clock and gives card selection, traits the Orzhov colors really lack. I see a few problems running it in this deck though:

    1. You need enough creatures to reliably crew it. In Deadguy Ale I had 15 sources that could do so on turn 3. Without a crew target, it's just a 2 mana do nothing, so you really want to avoid that. If you want to play it, I think adding something like Bitterblossom is mandatory.
    2. Copter can be bolted, pushed, pathed, etc...One of the strengths of BW control is its lack of creatures that are worth firing a spot removal for, so they usually become dead cards in our opponent's hand. Prepare for your Copter to die alot since it will probably the only real target (besides Path on Gideons).
    3. Part of what makes Copter so good is the potential to abuse the looting effect by discarding cards like Lingering Souls and Bloodghast. If you only use it as a filter effect it's still reasonable, but it gets great if used as a card advantage tool. Also, it is quite common to discard some lands with Looter Scooter, so you should probably lower your curve a little if you want to play him.

    This may sound discouraging but it certainly is worth testing, just adjust your deck a little and see how it goes! Smile
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    Regarding splashes:
    When you are considering a splash, always ask yourself if the additional options you gain really outweigh the disadvantages the splash comes with. You need more fetches and shocklands, consequently less basics and utility lands. This means the landbase is weaker to disruption like Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter, is less likely to disrupt our opponents lands via Field of Ruin and causes us to take more damage. Thus we lose percentage points against decks like Ponza, Blue Moon, Death n Taxes, Big Mana decks (Tron, Scapeshift/Titanshift) and super fast aggro like Burn and Affinity.

    If I still were to splash a color it would be blue since it can offset the fundamental weakness of Orzhov decks, card selection and card draw. Serum Visions, Esper Charm, Search for Azcanta and Snapcaster Mage come to mind. Blue also provides sideboard answers to noncreature-combo decks in Geist of Saint Traft (fast and difficult to remove clock), Negate and Dispel (discard is useless against topdecks).
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    This is an interesting list for sure. I cannot argue with the result, but there are some things I don't like about it. Lingering Souls and Path to Exile are THE reason to even play white in Modern and there is neither in the mainboard. Especially in conjunction with Lili, Souls is too much value to pass up in my opinion. Oath of Liliana can be a lot of value too with such high amounts of planeswalkers, but against the go-wide-aggro meta we have at the moment I would much rather stabilize with Souls into Wrath than Oath into planeswalker. No Path probably makes sense with the design of the deck; everything Push cannot hit can be hit by the sacrifice effects. But then again, with Gideon of the Trials we are well equipped to fight sole targets anyway. The only meta I would be happy to play this version would be against a field full of Boggles Smile
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    @Chantu9Y at 08:24:15 for match against Affinity at 01:46:52 for match against GB Elves
    I cannot advise to watch the elves match though, it hurts Frown

    Your list looks very similar to what I have been playing over the last weeks. I would recommend playing at least 5 spot removal though, there are matchups where wrath effects are simply too slow or you need to answer a threat at instant speed. How has Lili worked out for you at 2 copies?

    I went 13-8 with the list I posted last page over the last two weeks (two local tournaments and games against friends). Not amazing, but not horrible either. I didn`t take detailed notes, but here are my thoughts on some specific cards:

    Bitterblossom and Sorin, Solemn Visitor: As I already knew from playing BW Tokens they work together very well. I found them to be rather weak though if you only draw one of them. Against most aggro and midrange decks, it felt better to jam a Wall of Omens drawing into a wrath or planeswalker than a BB. So without dedicated support from cards like Intangible Virtue and more Sorins it is not the right 2-drop for me. The only time I enjoyed BB was against control decks when I needed a early and hard to answer threat. I will probably replace them with more Walls or something like Nights Whisper and more wraths instead of the Sorins.

    Shambling Vent: I cannot decide if I want the full playset or only 3 copies. Hitting a fourth untapped land on curve can be crucial, but it is really good against burn, which shows up a lot in my LGS...

    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    Thanks for the feedback! There is a lot of variance in my LGS, but the more regular decks include Vizier Company, Burn, Affinity, Tron, BG Midrange, Saheeli CopyCat and more recently Lantern Control, which is why I will probably replace some number of Lost Legacy with Cranial Extraction. I really REALLY despise Ensnaring Bridge and even thought about boarding Ixalan's Binding until I realized they can just cheat it in with Whir of Invention Frown ...
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Modern BW/Orzhov Control
    Hey guys, long time Orzhov player here. In the past I have played midrangey decks mainly like BW tokens and brews with Bob/Tidehollow Sculler/Smugglers Copter. The reason I have always hesitated to try a BW Control list is how poorly discard plays with control strategies. Blue based control gets to play universal answers in the form of counters like Cryptic Command, so they can play the reactive game better than we can. With only discard available to answer spells and noncreature permanents (something like a 1 of Anguished Unmaking cannot change this IMO), your opponent will eventually topdeck something powerful you cannot answer. So in conclusion we need to present a serious clock in addition to our discard suite. This is why I try to lower the overall curve of the deck (fewer high cmc planeswalkers) and do not play cards like Night's Whisper. The list may look very similar to a BW Token midrange shell, but it adapts the Gideon+Boardwipe package from your control lists for a faster clock and card advantage against creature based strategies.

    I only play paper magic, so there is limited testing. So far the results have been mixed. Not sure I like the walls and I want to make space for something like Fulminator mage in the board. However, the archtype is definitley fun to play and strong in a creature heavy meta. The one thing I dislike is when you simply draw the wrong half of the deck, but I guess having no card selection is the flipside of not playing blue.

    Awesome thread btw guys!
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on [POLL] What cards do you want banned or unbanned in the January 15, 2018 announcement?
    I voted for BBE and SFM unban. No bans.

    Not surprised SFM is a popular wish (that + BBE would open a Naya deck maybe, or the comeback of a White Jund variant), although I ain't ready to vote for her in a format where nearly every midrange deck would play it (Collected Company, UWx, BGx, Eldrazi, many Tribals even Death's Shadow and Affinity may investigate into it). It would hurt diversity so much.

    I think people overrate SFM a little. It is at least a 6 card-package, usually 7 cards, which DO NOT easily slot into every midrange deck. Death's Shadow? You want to kill your own Shadow with Batterskull or spend 2 turns equipping it with a sword? Tribal decks cannot afford to play another 7 cards that are not their creature types on top of Vial/Company/etc. Of course some decks will play it, but hurting diversity? It could even enable colour pairings like BW or Mardu.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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